Who will be moved to the fourth density?

[ROEL]

By taking a topic of particular interest, you made the choice to study it further, to eventually connect the dots and learn about more pressing social issues. THAT'S free will.

Well, nobodyslave, it could also be due to intensity of desire, not free will. At least that is what I gather from reading Gurdjieff. And by the life of me, I can't remember where he gives an explanation to the effect. It just stayed with me, and your comment brought it to the surface.

 

[Buddy]

By taking a topic of particular interest, you made the choice to study it further, to eventually connect the dots and learn about more pressing social issues. THAT'S free will.

Well, nobodyslave, it could also be due to intensity of desire, not free will. At least that is what I gather from reading Gurdjieff.

I could be wrong but my impression is that nobodyslave is pointing forward to a more practical understanding of 'free will'. Sort of like how Charles Peirce tells it in his Pragmatics:

...the question of free-will and fate in its simplest form, stripped of verbiage, is something like this: I have done something of which I am ashamed; could I, by an effort of the will, have resisted the temptation, and done otherwise? The philosophical reply is, that this is not a question of fact, but only of the arrangement of facts. Arranging them so as to exhibit what is particularly pertinent to my question -- namely, that I ought to blame myself for having done wrong -- it is perfectly true to say that, if I had willed to do otherwise than I did, I should have done otherwise. On the other hand, arranging the facts so as to exhibit another important consideration, it is equally true that, when a temptation has once been allowed to work, it will, if it has a certain force, produce its effect, let me struggle how I may. There is no objection to a contradiction in what would result from a false supposition. The reductio ad absurdum consists in showing that contradictory results would follow from a hypothesis which is consequently judged to be false.

Also, FWIW to an interested reader, Peirce is explaining how our clumsy understandings of issues can be mere reflections of how 'meanings of statements' are changed by certain ways of arranging 'facts':

There is absolutely no difference between a hard thing and a soft thing so long as they are not brought to the test. Suppose, then, that a diamond could be crystallized in the midst of a cushion of soft cotton, and should remain there until it was finally burned up. Would it be false to say that that diamond was soft? This seems a foolish question, and would be so, in fact, except in the realm of logic. There such questions are often of the greatest utility as serving to bring logical principles into sharper relief than real discussions ever could.

In studying logic we must not put them aside with hasty answers, but must consider them with attentive care, in order to make out the principles involved. We may, in the present case, modify our question, and ask what prevents us from saying that all hard bodies remain perfectly soft until they are touched, when their hardness increases with the pressure until they are scratched. Reflection will show that the reply is this: there would be no falsity in such modes of speech. They would involve a modification of our present usage of speech with regard to the words hard and soft, but not of their meanings. For they represent no fact to be different from what it is; only they involve arrangements of facts which would be exceedingly maladroit.

This leads us to remark that the question of what would occur under circumstances which do not actually arise is not a question of fact, but only of the most perspicuous arrangement of them.

 

[egzopolityka]

I am not against learning from experience. It appears that is a necessary part of learning. I only question the necessity of that intensity of the experience we go through on the Earth. People suffer too much which in my opinion is unjustified. I have read somewhere, that opinions about the necessity of that intensity of our experience are different among the Guides occupying higher densities, and some of them agree with me that we do not need to suffer that much to learn at a similar speed. People just do not deserve that nor most of them need that.

 

[anart]

I am not against learning from experience. It appears that is a necessary part of learning. I only question the necessity of that intensity of the experience we go through on the Earth. People suffer too much which in my opinion is unjustified. I have read somewhere, that opinions about the necessity of that intensity of our experience are different among the Guides occupying higher densities, and some of them agree with me that we do not need to suffer that much to learn at a similar speed. People just do not deserve that nor most of them need that.

It's not up to the student to design the school. In other words, don't you think it's a little silly to think that you can - from your current perspective - decide what is necessary and what is not necessary for soul development? With that said, it appears quite obvious that humanity will suffer until it learns how not to suffer and that seems to be in the far, far distance...

 

[bngenoh]

nobodyslave, that was an excellent analogy. That is also my method, but I couple it with the Socratic method of simple questioning to bring out the stupidity of some of the things my niece does, and also with making fun of them to make it completely obvious just how ridiculous they are. ;)

As to this:

I am not against learning from experience. It appears that is a necessary part of learning. I only question the necessity of that intensity of the experience we go through on the Earth. People suffer too much which in my opinion is unjustified. I have read somewhere, that opinions about the necessity of that intensity of our experience are different among the Guides occupying higher densities, and some of them agree with me that we do not need to suffer that much to learn at a similar speed. People just do not deserve that nor most of them need that.

It's not up to the student to design the school. In other words, don't you think it's a little silly to think that you can - from your current perspective - decide what is necessary and what is not necessary for soul development? With that said, it appears quite obvious that humanity will suffer until it learns how not to suffer and that seems to be in the far, far distance...

Hi egzopolityka, along with what anart said, my view is this.

Nature cares only about the most unaware, those are the ones that are selected for because that largely determines fitness, as below so above. The same principles are at work everywhere. Predators serve a great purpose in this regard and the STS pathway is what gives birth to the idea of predator & thus prey, because a predator cannot exist without prey.

If humanity has allowed itself through its freewill, to be mutated to the point where it will not act in favor of its destiny, thus bringing inevitable destruction upon itself in order to bring balance, well, that is okay, because all there is is lessons, an eternity to learn them in infinity. If however, humanity has not been sufficiently degenerated and acts in favor of its destiny, thus acting as immune cells to contain the pathogen that is psychopaths and their minions, and in so doing bringing balance, negating the need for the Universe to do it, that is okay as well. I hold both possibilities equal, it doesn't matter to me what the mass of humanity does, and whether this body is destroyed because of the non response-ability of humanity, is of no consequence.

If destruction is what the mass of humanity has chosen, in the grand scheme of things, that is okay because they will become the base material through which new beings and thus possibilities will be created. So you see, all is lessons, just because this is a school, doesn't mean you're going to learn, that is up to us individually. Since we are all a part of the body that is the Earth, the immune response begins with one cell, and that is the individual, but that cell must alert other cells in order for the immune system to be made aware of the invaders.

 

[Buddy]

I only question the necessity of that intensity of the experience we go through on the Earth. People suffer too much which in my opinion is unjustified. I have read somewhere, that opinions about the necessity of that intensity of our experience are different among the Guides occupying higher densities, and some of them agree with me that we do not need to suffer that much to learn at a similar speed. People just do not deserve that nor most of them need that.

I understand what you're expressing and I'll share my simple, elegant explanation.

In my view, individuals in the general run of humanity are so utterly false in their role playing, social coerciveness and displays of false affect, that it becomes so easy to fall for people when they're in the midst of some sort of crisis. I feel like most people are genuinely authentic only when they're upset, distressed by something, feeling pain, crying real tears, etc. During these times, my heart sometimes bleeds for them so bad, I feel as though there is nothing I wouldn't do to 'make it right' for them.

Problem is, when they start feeling better, they go back into their roles, their fakeness, their pretensions and social rituals and all of a sudden the 'connection' is lost as well as interest in them, generally speaking.

Another problem may be when attempts to help someone in such a 'down' condition become narratized, by self or others, as predatory behavior. One can then go into this alternating swing between wanting to do something and wanting to not appear predatory or whatnot. IMO, a person simply must experience this stage in order to appreciate the difficulties involved.

Fortunately there seems to be another stage where one is aware of what's going on, but no longer has any emotional investment in it either way. A resulting return of personal energy is a payoff; it allows one to continue Work and, at least sometimes, simply observe the frantic dance and subterfuge going on all around, and smile like a madzub.

Re:
There was a story told of a madzub who was looking at people as though he was laughing. "Why are you laughing like that?" he was asked. "I am not laughing, I am smiling, because each manifests God in a different way: as an elephant, a giraffe, a dove...if only they could see themselves, they would smile too!"

Vilayat Inayat-Khan

 

[Al Today]

[...]
Re:
There was a story told of a madzub who was looking at people as though he was laughing. "Why are you laughing like that?" he was asked. "I am not laughing, I am smiling, because each manifests God in a different way: as an elephant, a giraffe, a dove...if only they could see themselves, they would smile too!"

Vilayat Inayat-Khan

Now if I can only hold on to that state...

 

[egzopolityka]

When a person ends their lifetime on the Earth and goes to the fifth density, can that person be moved to the fourth density without having to reincarnate on the Earth until the end of the cycle (the Wave coming)?

Who decides about that (the Guides?) and on what grounds?

 

[Possibility of Being]

When a person ends their lifetime on the Earth and goes to the fifth density, can that person be moved to the fourth density without having to reincarnate on the Earth until the end of the cycle (the Wave coming)?

Who decides about that (the Guides?) and on what grounds?

Who decides that a child can tie his shoelaces?

If the child observed his caregivers doing that, memorized it, came to some understanding, gained control over his limbs and fingers, tried many times, observed more, learned what's not working, tried again and again, one day he can do it himself. Nobody has to, or can, decide.

My original question is not trivial. Suppose someone does not like it here and wants to be moved to a higher density. They learn about the wave. If we can not tell them what they should do to enhance their chances to be moved out of here, they will just tell:
"So why should I care at all about the Wave and the channelings? I will just live the same life I did before" and that person will make the same mistakes for thousands of years. In my opinion it is not fair. The rules should be known to everyone. It is the Creation task to distinguish if one is breaking the rules, that is if one behaves according to the rules but in the heart of hearts one does so only because one wants to be moved out of here. And the Creation has got ways to distinguish that, hence the rules should be known as I said before.

If someone does not like it here, how they can know they would like it there? And where do you have the idea from that someone can be "moved" to a higher density?

I may be wrong, but it looks to me like you hold a kind of authoritarian, religious (Christian?) vision of the Universe in general, and higher densities and the Creation in particular: imagining them to be like a blissful Heaven and the Father who sets rules, watches everybody, judges and decides about their fates (graduation/salvation or punishment/damnation).

That's not how we here understand the Universe and the ways it operates. For example, I prefer to think about 4D as just another bus stop with a bunch of new things to do in a completely new way, and most of all - as another school with its own lessons, most likely not easier (why should they be?) than the ones we have to face and learn here in 3D.

Perhaps it would help to remember that you can't run before you can walk and that learning to run can be as difficult as learning to walk. If one has little to no curiosity and drive to learn and have fun here, how can they hope for having fun there?

 

[egzopolityka]

The question is pretty simple and pretty important so if you are not sure about the answer, it is a better idea to ask Cassiopaeans and i can not imagine why it has not been asked before, or has it?

Lesson are learned... but on what grounds is the soul verified that it has learned the lessons, so it can be moved to a higher density? I have already noticed the Cassiopaeans answers are very vague about important issues and I have the right to think they MAY be wrong about some of them especially concerning morality.
Trusting them 100%, when there are doubts, would be indeed a religious belief.

 

[Yozilla]

If i remember correctly C's pointed out in few occasions that their info is never 100% reliable and one of more important reasons is danger of universal free will rule to be corrupted... egzopolityka you are pursuing something that has never been offered here: exact answers which according to C's are not leading ourselves to self-development. Paths are myriad and we are all to overcome troubles of our own...

 

[anart]

The question is pretty simple and pretty important so if you are not sure about the answer, it is a better idea to ask Cassiopaeans and i can not imagine why it has not been asked before, or has it?

If you've not read the Wave Series in its entirety, please take the time to do so. Most of these concepts are covered fully there. According to the C's, it is possible for a person to die in 3D and incarnate 'next' in 4D without being physically present on 3D earth as the Wave moves through. I think they referred to it as 'a quick stopover in 5D to pick up a few things' - in mirth, of course.

Lesson are learned... but on what grounds is the soul verified that it has learned the lessons, so it can be moved to a higher density?

Please read the Wave Series. There is no magical person out there deciding who goes where and who does what. All there is is lessons.

I have already noticed the Cassiopaeans answers are very vague about important issues and I have the right to think they MAY be wrong about some of them especially concerning morality.
Trusting them 100%, when there are doubts, would be indeed a religious belief.

What is obvious from your posts here is that you are totally unfamiliar with the body of work this forum is based upon. If that were not the case, you would not have implied in the above that anyone here 'believes' anything. So, in the interest of your knowledge and in the interest of this forum, please take the time to read the Wave Series in its entirety before jumping to conclusions and posting questions in a demanding way. That's not really benefiting anyone, least of all you.

 

[Buddy]

The question is pretty simple and pretty important so if you are not sure about the answer, it is a better idea to ask Cassiopaeans and i can not imagine why it has not been asked before, or has it?

Lesson are learned... but on what grounds is the soul verified that it has learned the lessons, so it can be moved to a higher density? I have already noticed the Cassiopaeans answers are very vague about important issues and I have the right to think they MAY be wrong about some of them especially concerning morality.
Trusting them 100%, when there are doubts, would be indeed a religious belief.

To help you understand the answers you've received so far, it might pay you to consider the difference between categorical thinking and process thinking. The way you have phrased the original question and the way you are thinking about the question right now requires input (a 'passing' grade) from an external source. That is fine in a childhood stage of learning definitions and categories--when in order to recognize an "apple", for instance, your trial and error thought effort culminates in a "yes!" by your teacher.

Process, or experiential thinking is slightly different and needs no external validation. Take a banana for instance. When you eat enough of them so that you can re-cognize on a banana by linking related sensory input with its effects of "sweet mush being", the last thing you'd need is for an external source to tell you "yes! that's a banana". Instead, you'd probably respond more like: " I know."

Think: "I've reached a know-ledge on this climb of mine".

For all you know, you may already be receiving input from "C's". Perhaps you could loosen up a bit? :)

-----------------------
Edit: for clarity of meaning

 

[Bluestar]

Lesson are learned... but on what grounds is the soul verified that it has learned the lessons, so it can be moved to a higher density?

A: Cannot answer because it is too complex for you to understand.

Q: Does this mean that the are experienced... that the bodies we possibly would move into as 4th density beings, assuming that one does, would also be too complex for us to understand? You are saying that this 'sort of 4th density' pre-Fall state, in terms of the physical bodies, is too complex to understand. If going back to 4th density is anything like coming from 4th density, does that mean that what we would go back to is something that is too complex to understand? This variability of physicality that you have described?

A: Yes.

Q: Do the marbles move from one slot to another?

A: When, and only when, they have acquired the proper fit.

Q: Oh. How do they acquire the proper fit?

A: How do you?

Q: I guess you grow?

A: Okay.

Q: (L) Where did the souls come from that entered into the bodies on the planet earth? Were they in bodies on other planets before they came here?

A: Not this group.

Q: (L) Were they just floating around in the universe somewhere?

A: In union with the One. Have you heard the Super ancient legend of Lucifer, the Fallen Angel?

Q: (L) Who is Lucifer?

A: You. The human race.

Q: (L) Are the souls of individual humans the parts of a larger soul?

A: Yes. Close. The One. All who have fallen must learn "the hard way."

Q: (L) Does this mean that when a person's soul comes into their body at birth that it is kind of like reduced to a seed form or like the bud of a flower, and that the growing up years are either the rooting or...

A: It is a reawakening period.

Q: (L) Does that mean that when the soul comes into the body that it cannot, at that point, remember any of it's past experiences...

A: Cycle.

Q: (L) So it cycles like ebbing and flowing and that is the ebb point where there is very little awareness?

A: Something like that.

Q: (T) As 4th density candidates, anyone that is, when the wave comes, if they have reached the correct frequency vibration, and have raised themselves up to the point that the wave will take them, they will, at that point, move into 4th density, true?

A: Close enough.

A: Who is "on" 2nd level.

Q: (L) Animals. (T) Insects, lower life forms.

A: Now, think carefully, what level of awareness, and more importantly, understanding, do they have of you?

Q: (L) Well, I guess they are aware of us in some way, but they don't understand us... (T) Some do at some point... (T) They understand us to a certain extent... (Frank) But their understanding is entirely different from our understanding of them. In other words, they see these big hulking beings, but they don't know what's going on. (L) Was Ouspensky's explanation of how animals perceive humans very close to the truth?

A: Close. Now, what about 1st level understanding and perception of 2nd level?

Q: (L) Okay, 1st density, minerals and plants... now rocks and minerals combine with plants through growing actions, water dissolution, erosion, and so on, they have a real limited existence. And what happens is that mostly animals come along and eat them. (Frank) Bees pollinate flowers. (L) Different kinds of animals live in trees. (T) Some animals live in the ground and in caves. (T) So, rocks and minerals and plants have a really limited understanding of the animals above them which interact with them in various ways.

A: Yes, and you have a limited understanding of the densities above you.

No one can get a handle on the density above them. We can not waste precious time ( which is 3D cause that's the hand we were dealt) on wondering/worrying about the next level, osit. We are here and it is what it is. Use the cards you have been dealt towards an aim and goals that feel right with you. The resources here are immeasurable.

Possibility of Being, Buddy, Anart and others gave some hints for you. There is no one Being that sets the grade. When one is ready, they graduate. Then the being/person chooses where to go and learn the next lesson based on the the frequency vibration they are operating from. 4th density has STO & STO frequency vibration ranges and if you do a search on the forum you can get more information regarding this.

The point I am getting at here is, life is lessons, whether one is 1st thru 4th density. A "being" can only move up a density when one has learned all there is to know at the density they are on.

This quote is from session 960629:
A: You see, my dear, when you arrive at 4th density, then you will
see.
Q: (L) Well, how in the heck am I supposed to get there if I can't "get
it?"
A: Who says you have to "get it" before you get there?
Q: (L) Well, that leads back to: what is the wave going to do to
expand this awareness? Because, if the wave is what "gets you
there," what makes this so?
A: No. It is like this: After you have completed all your lessons in
"third grade," where do you go?
Q: (L) So, it is a question of...
A: Answer, please. Q: (L) You go to fourth grade.
A: Okay, now, do you have to already be in 4th grade in order to be
allowed to go there? Answer.
Q: (L) No. But you have to know all the 3rd density things...
A: Yes. More apropos: you have to have learned all of the lessons.
Q: (L) What kind of lessons are we talking about here?
A: Karmic and simple understandings.
Q: (L) What are the key elements of these understandings, and are
they fairly universal?
A: They are universal.
Q: (L) What are they?
A: We cannot tell you that.
Q: (L) Do they have to do with discovering the MEANINGS of the
symbology of 3rd density existence, seeing behind the veil... and
reacting to things according to choice? Giving each thing or person
or event its due?
A: Okay. But you cannot force the issue. When you have learned,
you have learned!
Q: (L) I just want to make sure that I am doing the most I can do. I
don't want to have to come back to 3rd density. If I can accelerate
things a little...
A: You cannot, so just enjoy the ride. Learning is fun!

You just have to do the work. You may want to http://cassiopaea.org/forum/index.php/topic,20531.msg221836.html#msg221836 fwiw.

edit: fixed link

 

[Palinurus]

Very concise and thoughtful compilation of relevant info, Bluestar. Thank you for that.

Alas, the link you're ending with didn't work for me. The address is faulty; that's what my browser says, anyways.

This is what it looks like: _http://cassiopaea.org/http://cassiopaea.org/forum/index.php/topic,20531.msg221836.html#msg221836

You have to remove the bolded part to make it work.