About David Icke & James Redfield

[Argonaut]

Re: About David Icke & James Redfield

I have not heard him try and systematically lay out a system of hyper-dimensions. Leads here would be useful, as specifics like how many levels there are and how they are stacked can be used to trace pedigree.

Icke claims that the number of dimensions is "infinite," and he likes to refer to dimensions as "frequency ranges." He has also used the term "densities," which for him are based on increasing rates of vibration. But he also seems to confuse the two concepts at times. Here's the closest I've heard him come to laying it out, from Children of the Matrix:

We are, therefore, like a
series of Russian dolls, one inside the other, all vibrating at different speeds. And
all, except that spark of love that interpenetrates all existence, are illusions of
varying degrees. The dense physical body, the outer of all the shells, is therefore
part of the greatest illusion because it not only has its own personal illusions, it
encompasses all the others, too.

The nearest "bodies" to the dense physical are the etheric, astral, mental and
emotional. They are all vibrating at higher speeds than our physical senses and so
we can't see them, although psychic people can when they access those frequencies.
We feel them, however, as good and bad "vibes". The etheric is a mirror image of
the physical, but less dense, and the lower levels of the astral frequency range
(lower fourth dimension) appear to be the realms from which the Illuminati
demons, reptilians, and other malevolent "extraterrestrials" largely operate. The
"lower astral" is the traditional home of malevolent entities in esoteric thought.

To me, this sounds a lot like Theosophy. So at this point I'd say that's his pedigree, at least in the area of "how reality works."

[quote author=potamus]
I was proud of Icke for resolving his intestinal issues. The pursuit was in earnest, trying to care of himself, and if you listen to his words about it, it was a lesson for him, by him, and the only thing he related to us is an encouragement for us to do same good things for us. In short, it was an off-pulpit episode. I don't know a lot about how such public figures are duped and manipulated, but the man has shown care - at points. My thoughts will turn now to an epiphany for him. If he self-reflects he might pipe down and commit to research or perhaps write a auto-biographical capitulation of how easily he stepped out on the plank and was made tool of. That could be pretty cool.
[/quote]

Icke has had a lot of these lessons. He does show care in certain areas, but it's never something that would shake up his world view. And he often sees such lessons as "confirming" his established beliefs. It would be cool if something could inspire him to break free of the "Dark Side." It's just very unlikely. If anything could help him understand, it would probably have to be an extended private conversation. And you probably wouldn't get much "face time" with him nowadays. But if you get a chance to talk with him again you can give it a shot. So if you had 1 minute to try and "plant a seed" in Icke's mind that could help him see the truth, what might you say?

 

[durabone]

Re: About David Icke & James Redfield

Thanks argonaut. Theosphy, Olcott, Blavatsky, etc. a specific influence vs. its
prevelance in common myth. Certainly the remnants of Crowleys' WW2 trumblings,
Golden Dawn, etc. were part of the street lore that Icke grew up with in England?
That's a guess. Now that I think of it, has he been silent on the topics of the
Theosophical Society, Church of Satan etc. yes? He's used the word 'satanic', and
now that I have read so much more of the history of Nazi Occultism and it associations
with the Theospophical Society, Vril, etc. it might be worth it for me to go back and
scan his works along these lines. Interesting.

That said, there is a clear line between stating things in an accessible way so that
those learning can hear quickly and thoroughly vs, sounding like you're doing that
because you are still figuring it out yourself:

[quote author=Argonaut]They are all vibrating at higher speeds than our physical senses and so
we can't see them, although psychic people can when they access those frequencies.[/quote]

Irony, here is a perfect example. If I was to say that I am an engineer with average
knowledge, that would be overstating my knowledge level, but still I cannot quaff
sentences like the above! There are wavelengths David, a spectrum. There
are sensors that can see most of the spectrum, and soon, many will be available
very cheaply. With Keel's 'paraphysical' concept in mind, note that I am not
saying such things are impossible. It's just my main criticism of Icke's approach.
He tends to grasp at the essence of a concept without having the technical basis
to conclude. Here he seems mechanical man. And if there is a guiding intelligence
behind him, it is not doing a very good job of impressing folks technical. Thus
it is an interesting thought. Is it 'him' devising the content? Could fit, or
perhaps the intended audience does not include people like me?

[quote author=Argonaut]So if you had 1 minute to try and "plant a seed" in Icke's mind that could help
him see the truth, what might you say?[/quote]

Hah. Nice question! I don't know. Perhaps I would encourage him to participate here! Have you
got any ideas? David if you're out there, next time you're in the Bay Area me & a friend
will buy you dinner...

Here are some questions we might ask in a taped interview:

1. Given your former life as a news anchor and your rebellion, how has it been to adapt from
knowingly giving out dis-information to trying to create it and be accurate about it yourself?
2. Are you familiar with the Cointelpro deal and have you had any personal experiences that you can share?
3. Do you think people like Jeff Rense and Alex Jones are dead nuts on, dis-info, or what?
4. Do you think that the 911 Truth Movement could be a rolo?
5. Do you think that the blogsphere has produced a new generation of articulate, critcially
thinking people?
6. Do you feel safer now that you have been so far past the martyr point for so long?
7. How many other case studies of publicly rebel figures have you examined to understand
where you fit in?
8. How would you feel about writing a compendium of your works that contains only the parts
from your prior books that you still feel are valid and pertinent?

Oh, and: 9. Have you ever seen a UFO?
Oh, oh and: 10. What do you think of Johnny Cash' claims of a visitation dream from the Queen?

There are others here that have much experience in such things who could do a really good job at an
interview. My guess is it wouldn't take much in the way of a push to find out what
kind of reactor he is.

One final thought: Given the rate of evolution of other lines of thought that I have seen, it is
a little surprising he has not moved further. Seems impossible. If you learned a lot of new &
diversified information that was brought to your attention as a result of your very own "expose"
some of it pro, some of it con, do you:

A) Stick with your winning format, rationalize, and add dressing and toasted croutons to insert new themes that fit?

or

B) Confess your earlier errors, and change your position and stance to match the new knowledge?

or

C) Do you "do what they told ya", when you claim to be: "f@#% you I won't do what you tell me!!"? (lyrics from, R.A.t.M.)

or what?

Are there people here who would agree that learning can completely reverse your prior understanding?
Does this not apply to Icke? This point was made in different ways earlier in this thread, but -with apologies- it helps me to
try and sound byte things sometimes.

 

[Argonaut]

Re: About David Icke & James Redfield

Thanks argonaut. Theosphy, Olcott, Blavatsky, etc. a specific influence vs. its
prevelance in common myth. Certainly the remnants of Crowleys' WW2 trumblings,
Golden Dawn, etc. were part of the street lore that Icke grew up with in England?
That's a guess.

It's a good point; much of New Age thought derived from things like Theosophy. So the resemblance in Icke's ides could just be due to this. Even if 4D STS (or British/US Intelligence) did hand him these ideas, there's a reason that the New Age is the way it is. So they'd be likely to feed Icke the same ideas.

[quote author=potamus]
Now that I think of it, has he been silent on the topics of the
Theosophical Society, Church of Satan etc. yes? He's used the word 'satanic', and
now that I have read so much more of the history of Nazi Occultism and it associations
with the Theospophical Society, Vril, etc. it might be worth it for me to go back and
scan his works along these lines. Interesting.
[/quote]

Icke talks about satanism in terms of occult ritual practiced by the elite. To him it's actually "Reptilian worship," whether the participants know it or not. I'm not sure if he's talked about Nazi Occultism, but we can definitely find out.

[quote author=potamus]
He tends to grasp at the essence of a concept without having the technical basis
to conclude. Here he seems mechanical man. And if there is a guiding intelligence
behind him, it is not doing a very good job of impressing folks technical. Thus
it is an interesting thought. Is it 'him' devising the content? Could fit, or
perhaps the intended audience does not include people like me?
[/quote]

I think you hit on it right there. Icke's stuff is meant for a particular target audience, and few of those could see through his technical-sounding jargon. It sounds deep and profound and spiritual, and it's meant to effect on an emotional level. With some of his "facts" he's even close to right, but it's the meaning he gives to it which has the impact.

[quote author=potamus]
Perhaps I would encourage him to participate here! Have you
got any ideas? David if you're out there, next time you're in the Bay Area me & a friend
will buy you dinner...
[/quote]

I think if Icke has been reading this thread, the last thing he'd want is dinner with one of us. :) Unless he's already begun to shift his thinking.

If I only had 1 minute with him, I'd probably invite him to check out the EE program and leave it at that. It could help, who knows? Any sort of reasoning or telling him he's been duped would probably fall on deaf ears. I'm guessing he's heard that kind of thing before. He's probably learned to just blow it off.

[quote author=potamus]
Here are some questions we might ask in a taped interview:

<snip>

There are others here that have much experience in such things who could do a really good job at an
interview. My guess is it wouldn't take much in the way of a push to find out what
kind of reactor he is.
[/quote]

Maybe. But as Anart pointed out regarding joining his forum, we wouldn't want to interview him as a trap or with an agenda. Some of your questions would be good to ask, but not as a way to try pushing or testing him. Besides, I think we've seen what kind of reactor he is already. When challenged, he becomes evasive and/or flips the challenge around on the asker. And in more extreme situations he becomes very petty and insulting.

[quote author=potamus]
One final thought: Given the rate of evolution of other lines of thought that I have seen, it is
a little surprising he has not moved further. Seems impossible. If you learned a lot of new &
diversified information that was brought to your attention as a result of your very own "expose"
some of it pro, some of it con, do you:

A) Stick with your winning format, rationalize, and add dressing and toasted croutons to insert new themes that fit?

or

B) Confess your earlier errors, and change your position and stance to match the new knowledge?

or

C) Do you "do what they told ya", when you claim to be: "f@#% you I won't do what you tell me!!"? (lyrics from, R.A.t.M.)

or what?
[/quote]

He hasn't moved further because his worldview doesn't require it. He's already awake as far as he's concerned, and any "growing" he may do is pre-ordained via karma and astrology. All that's left is to add more "facts" to the pile to convince himself and others of his rightness. He sees any new data through that filter so it doesn't do him any good. As for what he's told, he sees those sources as his own wise higher self. For Icke the "direct downloaded" info is the gold standard while researched evidence comes second. It's a twisted reversal of Laura and the C's.

[quote author=potamus]
Are there people here who would agree that learning can completely reverse your prior understanding?
Does this not apply to Icke? This point was made in different ways earlier in this thread, but -with apologies- it helps me to
try and sound byte things sometimes.
[/quote]

Yes, learning can completely reverse understanding if one is open to learn. The question is, how open is Icke? Based on what we've seen, he appears very firmly convinced that he's right. And his worldview gives him ways to explain away anything that suggests otherwise. And if he's believed lies for so long that he's become a half-wit, unable to think critically, then a huge shift in understanding just doesn't seem likely. Also, in terms of Fourth Way principles, someone must do all they can on their own prior to starting the Work. David Icke has done nothing real on his own, as far as personal evolution goes. And he shows no inclination in that direction.

 

[durabone]

Re: About David Icke & James Redfield

Oooo...

He's probably learned to just blow it off.

Nice note! Got me laughing.

Maybe. But as Anart pointed out regarding joining his forum, we wouldn't want to interview him as a trap or with an agenda.

Of course. Figure of speech, broaching the notion of what it might be like to apply moderation to him were he overtly here

EDIT: I see. My tone turned light and flip, but you could not have seen. Hmmm, there's a posting guideline.

All that's left is to add more "facts" to the pile to convince himself and others of his rightness.

Fair enough, but I hold on to optimism for reversals in honor of a couple I have known. The image of him on a couch leaning back after besting another argument just popped into my mind.

When challenged, he becomes evasive and/or flips the challenge around on the asker.

I missed that. It sounds like something I'd not like to see, but feel I should.

David Icke has done nothing real on his own, as far as personal evolution goes. And he shows no inclination in that direction.

That's a tough line to draw, but I'm listening. If we buy the rendition of the key event that triggered his "rebellion," (I recall the news anchor incident as if he was yanked off the air for refusing to lie about an oil spill), then must we admit that he took at least a step? Whether this is in fact something "real on his own" may be worthy of asking.

 

[Argonaut]

Re: About David Icke & James Redfield

Ok, I'm now in the chapter of Icke's autobiography called "The Scapegoat." It covers the incident with Mari Shawsun (Deborah Shaw) in detail. And it's far more interesting than it seemed. The following passage is lengthy, but if you read it you'll see an interesting dynamic playing out between Icke and this woman. Remember that Mari Shawsun not only channelled Icke's book Love Changes Everything, she also appears to be responsible for Icke's confused "turquoise period" - which was pretty much the launch of his career.

I must take you back to that moment when I awoke from the deep, deep sleep on the floor in Mari Shawsun's apartment on the last evening of my second visit to Canada. I said that when I opened my eyes the world looked very different and so it did - in every way. It was like being hypnotised. I thought no more of it and I left a few hours later for the long trip to Peru. While I was there after that incredible event on the mound I started taking automatic writing and time and again I was being told that I had to have a physical relationship with Mari. It was part of the plan and it was very necessary, indeed vital that this happen. The writing said that it was something to do with the effect on energies.

"What?" I remember saying as I looked at the page. "You must be bloody joking! I have heard some excuses for it, but affecting energies is the best yet. Where is this coming from?" But the writing kept on flowing. "You will not understand the significance of what we are asking you to do for some time, but believe us it is necessary."

"No."

So it continued until I received a communication which said, "David, it has already happened on the etheric, so you had better get used to it."

As I explained at the start of the book, everything has an etheric energy field, a non-physical version of a physical body or object. The etheric energy field is the template and the organizer. Everything that happens on the physical level is the result of what has happened in the etheric field. A frequency as a whole also has an etheric level on which events first take place before they eventually manifest on the physical level. Once something has happened on the etheric, it will happen on the physical at some point because the decisions have been made at that higher level and the physical body must respond to that. I felt after receiving that automatic writing that the decision had been made at a much higher level of my being, leaving this conscious level in some emotional turmoil. I felt guilty, too, at refusing to do what was apparently necessary for the greater good, not that I understood at that time how the greater good could possibly benefit from what I was being asked to do.

I decided to wait and see what happened. I discussed the communications with Mari and after considerable deliberation, it happened on my third visit to Canada. Mari received similar messages. There were certainly massive energy changes within me in the days and weeks that followed. There was one amazing incident when I looked at Mari and her face kept changing to someone else and then back again, and she saw the same happen to me.

Throughout this period I was sort of floating around in some kind of spiritual mist with my feet some way from the ground. The word "hypnotised" keeps coming back to me. I have talked about the brakes being suspended and some force taking over, a process that began with that deep sleep. It was now that this gathered pace and the earthly personality we call David Icke went on holiday somewhere else in the great unknown. The turquoise press conference came about three weeks later. I still didn't understand what on Earth was happening to me. The confusion was total.

Talking to Linda about the situation was just agony for me and her; I really can't tell you how much. Nothing I ever do in this life could ever be so painful. I put off the moment as long as I could, although she is a highly intelligent woman and knew all along really. You don't have a relationship as close as ours and not know these things. One of the reasons I put it off, apart from the pain I knew it would bring, was the hope that I would get at least a reasonable idea of what this was all about. [...]

I felt sorry for Mari too. Here she was stuck in a spare room-cum-office at our home with her life in limbo. It was very difficult for her and I felt terribly guilty about the situation she was in. Unfortunately, a side to Mari began to emerge once she arrived in England that was to turn a very difficult situation into a nightmare. She was to appear, to my conscious level, as the most unpleasant and destructive person I had ever met. Even going for a walk alone with Linda could bring tears or enormous rage from Mari when we returned. I did not intend to mention any of this when I wrote this book and I have no wish to do so now. I wanted to say nothing in public because what happened was a learning experience for everyone concerned and should have been quietly accepted as that, I feel. But for reasons that will become obvious shortly, some misrepresentations need to be corrected. Linda and many others began to feel that Mari was trying to force Linda out through various means. I didn't see that in the beginning, not least because the very thought of life without Linda never even entered my head. Now, as you will have seen from my life so far, the earthly personality called David Icke a few chapters back would never have stood for this and Mari would have been asked to leave. But instead I talked with Linda and we agreed that people have a right to have the information the book Love Changes Everything would make available, and that the book was meant to be channelled by Mari. We would, therefore, put up with the situation until the book was completed and then many decisions would have to be made by all parties about the future. [...]

The more it became clear to Mari that the bond between Linda and me was not to be broken, the more angry she became and life became increasingly difficult. At the same time Mari was channelling information about unconditional love for the book. There would seem to be a contradiction here, but there is not. Channellers are vehicles for others to speak through them, they are not the source of the information. [...]

By the time of the trip to South America, it had reached such a pitch that the mere mention of my family was sometimes enough to move Mari either to tears or incredible rage. Yet, at other times, she could be the most delightful person and great company. You never knew from one moment to the next. As spring became summer and the brakes were slowly returning, I decided that the situation must end. "I don't care whether it's necessary or not, it's over. No more," I remember shouting at the sky one day in frustration at what was happening to my life and those around me, Mari among them.

It was like waking up from a dream and finding it was a nightmare come true. How my family held together I will never know. Mari always said that Linda was a weak person. Mari, like most of humanity, mistakes strength for the loudest voice or most dominant personality. That is not strength, it is often a cover for weakness. Linda personifies strength and only someone with immense inner reserve could have coped with what had happened and with what was to come.

When Joan arrived to help us to check Love Changes Everything, she told me of many communications she had been receiving about the situation. They said it was time for Mari to leave as soon as possible. I had taken some automatic writing a week before saying Mari's time with us was rapidly coming to an end and she would be invited to travel abroad alone to Canada. I had said nothing to anyone at the time, but then Joan received the same information and Mari accepted it and flew off to Canada and the United States. It was like turning the release valve on a pressure cooker, bursting a balloon of pent-up emotion that had been getting bigger and bigger with every day. Life became so much more peaceful. Then, after several weeks of trying to work it all out and find some kind of meaning for what had happened in the past year, we had a phone call from Mari late one night from Canada. "I'm eight months pregnant," she said. "And it's your child. I am coming back tomorrow and I am going to tell the world."

Well, imagine the scene. You are sitting watching the television with Linda and Kerry one minute and the next you are faced with that. Mari, for some reason I couldn't understand, told the newspapers several months later that I knew she was having a child from the start. Anyone who saw my face after that phone call as Linda and Kerry did would laugh at the very suggestion. Obviously we were in a state of considerable shock. [...]

Obviously it would have been difficult for Mari to return to our home because there was no room for what was to happen and the emotional consequences for Linda would have been too much to bear. But if an alternative had not been found, Linda had already said that Mari would have the baby here. Early the next morning I went to see the two healers who had become very close to Mari. They were magnificent. They said she should go there to have the child and they would go to the airport to pick her up. They did not want me to be involved because they didn't want to be besieged by the press. [...]

Mari said the child was mine and I accepted that without a second thought, although whenever I was ready to say so publicly something happened to stop me or the words simply would not come out. It was most strange. Later, on the advice of many people and for my own personal reasons, I ensured that everything was genetically confirmed so there could be no doubt in anyone's mind. I wrote to Mari offering to bring up the child with Linda if she wished. She said that she wanted to start a new life with the baby and wanted me to have no access. It was an extremely painful decision for me to make, but I agreed because what was needed now was a period of quiet contemplation by everyone and what was best for the child. Many times in our lives we are all faced with situations in which it is impossible to do what is a hundred per cent right for everyone. This was one such occasion. All you can do is what you think is best overall, taking everyone into consideration. None of this ever appeared in the "Icke abandons baby" stories that Mari was to tell to a newspaper. Rebecca was born on 14 December 1991, at the healers' home. I made a decision not to see her because I felt it would increase the pain of not being able to see her in the future. But one night I had a tearful phone call from Mari asking me to go over and see Rebecca. I did and she was a gorgeous child. When I asked to see her again soon after that, Mari strongly objected and I was not to see Rebecca again until she appeared in a double-page spread in a Sunday newspaper. Mari stayed with the healers for some months. In the end, however, she was taking control of their lives. She left and eventually bought a house on the English mainland.

Now before people start accusing me of putting Mari in a bad light, let me repeat a major theme of this book. We don't know why people act towards us in certain ways. It could be free will, but it could just as easily be part of what we had wanted to experience either for personal or collective reasons. My father's treatment of me is a case in point. I didn't like it, but it was essential to what I needed to experience. I ask you to look at everyone, Mari included, from this perspective. I am setting out what happened from where I was standing, not judging or condemning. How could I without knowing the background? And what right have I or anyone else to judge another, anyway? The same applies for what follows. [...]

My first reaction when I had the phone call from Canada was that everything must be kept quiet to avoid all the pain that would ensue. And what effect would this have on the truth I was trying to pass on? But after that initial shock, I thought, "Hold on a minute, this is the truth," and I began to understand more about the workings of Creation with regard to all of these things. I felt it was right that if it would help others to understand events in their own lives then I should write about it all in this book which I was beginning to put together. But under no circumstances would I do that without Mari's agreement because of the implications for her. She said that she did not want anything written on the subject whatsoever. I accepted that, but I just knew that it was irrelevant anyway. For some reason I knew all this was going to be played out in public and that it would happen in time to be included in this book. [...]

For five months after Rebecca was born not a word appeared in the press [...] Then Linda found that she was having a child. [...] Once the news of Linda's pregnancy became public knowledge, she was convinced that the other story would break and she was right. Linda can read Mari like an open book and she felt that she would talk to the papers eventually. Astrological readings of their birth charts have picked out Linda's ability to see right into Mari's heart and mind after many incarnations together. Unknown to us around this time Mari was telling the story to a Sunday newspaper. [...]

The story had many inaccuracies with the "Kerry left school to be his disciple" nonsense repeated. Mari was quoted to indicate that basically I had abandoned her and Rebecca which people like the healers, who knew the truth and the background, found staggering. It also said our friends had deserted us because of what happened since 1991 and yet we had more friends than ever before and that number is growing all the time. [...]

We were followed by a reporter-photographer from the Sunday paper which had carried Mari's story and the following week Paul Vaughan sent a fax to the hotel to tell us that another big spread about us had appeared in the paper. Linda rang Kerry who had stayed at home because of her job.

"Mum, you'll never guess what Mari's said in the paper," Kerry told her. "I have never read such a load of rubbish in my life. She's had a right go at Dad."

My goodness, she had too, but then as someone close to Mari had told Linda some months before, "Tell David to keep well away - she only wants to hurt him." Another Sunday newspaper sent us a fax which included the article. Linda sat reading it, shaking her head and smiling, sometimes laughing out loud, at the fantasy she was reading. It was full of so many amazing untruths and misrepresentations you had to pinch yourself to believe you were reading it. Mari had told so many people so many different stories that they must have been terribly confused by now. She told the paper that I knew about the baby all along and we had kept it from Linda. Yet she had told the healers that Linda had agreed to everything from the start. It was like a verbal version of musical chairs. Whenever the music stopped, the story changed.

The article was one of the most monumental personal attacks by one human being on another that you are ever likely to see. It was aimed at bringing maximum pain and personal damage to me and, in a more subtle way, to Linda because it attempted to patronise her and make her out to be a complete idiot. Most of all it was designed to break us up, but Linda and others had known far more about the situation all along than Mari ever imagined. The article backfired amid a combination of laughter and disbelief from all who knew the truth. My own reaction reminded me of the time when the Irish television programme played in the clip of me in the "turquoise period." Who is this guy they are talking about? Here I was having a quiet holiday with my family as I had done so many times before and yet I was blasted all over the papers as some kind of womanising religious freak. It was as if they were talking about someone else and not me. It's a very weird experience. When I asked the other levels why all this was happening to me the words that came into my mind were: "You are going through an emotional crucifixion." Clearly Linda was too.

So what was this whole episode all about? We asked that question so many times a day for the best part of two years. To be honest I don't think we'll ever know for sure this side of the great beyond. Many psychics have channelled different answers and the truth as usual probably lies in a combination of all of them, plus a few more, no doubt. [...]

I would like to think that Mari could now accept the learning experience that she, too, was given and move on. From what I hear, however, that is not yet the case at the time of writing. I find it so desperately sad for Mari that she is still thinking in such terms. Those who lash out publicly at others always seem to forget the pain it causes for those close to the intended target, their children, parents and others. But again, maybe it's all a pre-arranged experience; I don't know. in some cases it will be, in others it will not.

I wish Mari limitless joy, love and happiness in whatever she chooses to do, but she, and anyone else who is thinking of hurling abuse at me and those around me in the future, should realise that the whole world working together cannot destroy me and the information I am passing on, and neither can it destroy the bond between those close to me.

This story highlights Icke's extreme naivete. First, Icke's natural inclination was to refuse the command to have sex with Mari Shawsun. Yet he buckled simply because "they" said "it's already happened on the etheric?" That's what convinced him to give in? Second, Mari Shawsun was clearly a pathological individual. She also seems to have put Icke under some sort of "spell" - or was at least used by something else to do this. And despite all the signs, Icke made his typical justifications, allowing her to "channel" an entire book for him! And once the entire painful scenario had played out, Icke still didn't get what had happened. He didn't see how he had been manipulated, used, and abused. He just bought into psychics' flaky "spiritual" explanations for why it had occurred. The fact that this woman was integral to the launch of Icke's career says volumes, osit.

[EDIT - typos]

 

[durabone]

Re: About David Icke & James Redfield

I collided with you on post, I'll reads yours now.

[quote author=Argonaut]He hasn't moved further because his worldview doesn't require it. [/quote]

I just re-read what you wrote here. It's getting late. That's my point.

[quote author=potamus]If you learned a lot of new & diversified information that was brought to your attention as a result of your very own "expose" some of it pro, some of it con, do you:[/quote]

I can't imagine being in his position with so much input aimed at my head!! Icke must have a 3000 HP motor attached to his bum to give him the power to hold that sucker down. That's like a denial barricade. And if the inputs from caring people are met with evasive denial deceptively pretending to listen and care. What a waste.

 

[Argonaut]

Re: About David Icke & James Redfield

[quote author=potamus]

All that's left is to add more "facts" to the pile to convince himself and others of his rightness.

Fair enough, but I hold on to optimism for reversals in honor of a couple I have known. The image of him on a couch leaning back after besting another argument just popped into my mind.

[/quote]

What couple of reversals have you known (if you don't mind saying)?

[quote author=potamus]

David Icke has done nothing real on his own, as far as personal evolution goes. And he shows no inclination in that direction.

That's a tough line to draw, but I'm listening. If we buy the rendition of the key event that triggered his "rebellion," (I recall the news anchor incident as if he was yanked off the air for refusing to lie about an oil spill), then must we admit that he took at least a step? Whether this is in fact something "real on his own" may be worthy of asking.

[/quote]

I'm not saying that Icke can never grow or have strong principles. He did take steps initially, and showed some integrity. And he could've gone in several directions from there. Even the realizations he had while in the Green Party could've led him in a positive direction. But he fell when he chose to believe all the psychics and channeled entities. He didn't question it or search on his own. He didn't find out what was true or false. He just believed it. That was when his path branched off in the direction of entropy. And now he's been on that path for nearly 20 years. He made a choice to believe lies. I think that's the clincher with him. He gave away his free will, essentially "selling his soul to the Devil." It may not be fair, or seem right, because Icke didn't understand what he was doing at the time. But at some level, he knew that he shouldn't just believe what he was told. That he should ask hard questions and be objective. But he chose the lazy, easy way. And now he's "locked in" to that mindset. I'm not saying a radical change could never happen, but don't get your hopes up.

 

[Argonaut]

Re: About David Icke & James Redfield

I collided with you on post, I'll reads yours now.

And then I collided with you.

[quote author=potamus]
[quote author=Argonaut]He hasn't moved further because his worldview doesn't require it. [/quote]

I just re-read what you wrote here. It's getting late. That's my point.

[/quote]

Ah, ok. I agree with you then. If he's gonna move further he needs to get going ASAP.

[quote author=potamus]
I can't imagine being in his position with so much input aimed at my head!! Icke must have a 3000 HP motor attached to his bum to give him the power to hold that sucker down. That's like a denial barricade. And if the inputs from caring people are met with evasive denial deceptively pretending to listen and care. What a waste.
[/quote]

Indeed. It is tragic, but we shouldn't become too wrapped up in the hopes that he will change. If he will he will, if he won't he won't. All we can do is offer him an opening of some kind if we have the chance. I think EE may be just that, because it's non-threatening. But as Gurdjieff says, "the results aren't up to us."

 

[durabone]

Re: About David Icke & James Redfield

That citation was a really good way to get your point across. Thank you.
My guess is you are exercising some politeness & restraint. My commentary
is pretty punchy by comparison, I had no idea how much things had degenerated.

The read took a while.

I felt after receiving that automatic writing that the decision had been made at a much higher level of my being, leaving this conscious level in some emotional turmoil. I felt guilty, too, at refusing to do what was apparently necessary for the greater good, not that I understood at that time how the greater good could possibly benefit from what I was being asked to do.

Oh no. Now I am glad I didn't read his later stuff. That's pretty 'voice of your own god-ish'

There were certainly massive energy changes within me in the days and weeks that followed.

Is this the same guy I met? Dinner date's off. That is a far cry from a clinical reporter of draconianism I once heard.

One of the reasons I put it off, apart from the pain I knew it would bring,

back to Johnny Cash, because you feared falling in to a "Burning Ring of Fire" baby.

Even going for a walk alone with Linda could bring tears or enormous rage from Mari when we returned

At the same time Mari was channelling information about unconditional love for the book. There would seem to be a contradiction here, but there is not.

Yeah, she just had to watch her poor eyes and hands remind her constantly about something that hurt even more.
EDIT: His responsibility for this state of affairs is not mentioned at all if I am reading that right?

bursting a balloon of pent-up emotion that had been getting bigger and bigger with every day

Umm, sounds like failing at communicating and resolving important relationship matters could be at work here.

I was ready to say so publicly something happened to stop me or the words simply would not come out. It was most strange.

Nice. It was an external force that stopped you, not fear of being exposed. I
like it. Maybe I can teach my dog to storm to the printer every time it kicks
on and eat my homework!!


Sorry, I guess I needed that.

[quote author=Argonaut]This story highlights Icke's extreme naivete[/quote]

Yes, and it also underscores your earlier point:

[quote author=Argonaut]And if he's believed lies for so long that he's become a half-wit, unable to think critically, then ...[/quote]

step back and keep your hands and feet away from his mouth. So ok. I owe you big.

[quote author=Argonaut]it's already happened on the etheric?" That's what convinced him to give in?[/quote]

Assigment of internal inconsistencies to external inconsistifiers.
This does not bode well.

Thanks again Argonaut. I'm going to crash. (EE=good idea for 1 minute)

 

[Argonaut]

Re: About David Icke & James Redfield

My guess is you are exercising some politeness & restraint. My commentary
is pretty punchy by comparison, I had no idea how much things had degenerated.

I posted the Mari Shawsun exerpt because it was an issue that was still left hanging. All we had to go on was a brief mention from Wikipedia. I'm glad you read it though, because it does illustrate exactly what sort of person we're dealing with.

Oh, and you did show a strong desire to see Icke as redeemable, but nothing in your posts required me to exercise restraint. :)

[quote author=potamus]

I felt after receiving that automatic writing that the decision had been made at a much higher level of my being, leaving this conscious level in some emotional turmoil. I felt guilty, too, at refusing to do what was apparently necessary for the greater good, not that I understood at that time how the greater good could possibly benefit from what I was being asked to do.

Oh no. Now I am glad I didn't read his later stuff. That's pretty 'voice of your own god-ish'

[/quote]

Exactly, and although he says he didn't want to do it, he still gave in based on nothing but this source's word.

[quote author=potamus]

There were certainly massive energy changes within me in the days and weeks that followed.

Is this the same guy I met? Dinner date's off. That is a far cry from a clinical reporter of draconianism I once heard.

[/quote]

Now you're seeing how Icke has misrepresented himself as a researcher. Laura's work began with devoted research and led to the C's. She had a foundation from which to communicate with them in a critical, scientific way. Icke's career began as blind faith and utter lack of knowledge, stumbling around in a confused trance. Which is a far cry from how he portrays himself now. In that 2008 interview, he said that he doesn't do as much research in the "five-sense" way anymore, because "much of it comes direct." Which implies that he originally started off with pure research. But now it's clear that he didn't. It was "coming direct" from the beginning. Any research he's done since has been built on the foundation of "blind faith" channeling.

And just think, at the start of this thread we were under the impression that Icke VILLIFIED channeling! How little we knew.

[quote author=potamus]

Even going for a walk alone with Linda could bring tears or enormous rage from Mari when we returned

At the same time Mari was channelling information about unconditional love for the book. There would seem to be a contradiction here, but there is not.

Yeah, she just had to watch her poor eyes and hands remind her constantly about something that hurt even more.
EDIT: His responsibility for this state of affairs is not mentioned at all if I am reading that right?

[/quote]

You are. He claims no responsibility, because he was simply doing as he was told "for the greater good." Would his higher sources lie to him? Nah...

[quote author=potamus]

bursting a balloon of pent-up emotion that had been getting bigger and bigger with every day

Umm, sounds like failing at communicating and resolving important relationship matters could be at work here.

I was ready to say so publicly something happened to stop me or the words simply would not come out. It was most strange.

Nice. It was an external force that stopped you, not fear of being exposed. I
like it. Maybe I can teach my dog to storm to the printer every time it kicks
on and eat my homework!!

[/quote]

You should remember too that Icke claimed to be in some sort of hypnotic "fog" during this entire period. Which sounds a lot like an excuse, except that Icke wasn't using it as one. He himself viewed this "fog" as positive, something that helped him make the right choices. He seems to have no clue about what appeared to be going on. After all, his higher sources were guiding him throughout this process, and would they mislead him? Nah...

[quote author=potamus]

[quote author=Argonaut]This story highlights Icke's extreme naivete[/quote]

Yes, and it also underscores your earlier point:

[quote author=Argonaut]And if he's believed lies for so long that he's become a half-wit, unable to think critically, then ...[/quote]

step back and keep your hands and feet away from his mouth. So ok. I owe you big.

[/quote]

Exactly, and this happened in 1991, just after Icke started listening to psychics and channeled entities. Imagine the state his brain might be in after almost 20 years on this path?

[quote author=potamus]

[quote author=Argonaut]it's already happened on the etheric?" That's what convinced him to give in?[/quote]

Assigment of internal inconsistencies to external inconsistifiers.
This does not bode well.

[/quote]

No... And if that's all it took to convince him, I doubt he was really THAT against the idea. Then again, his blind faith in these forces is pretty staggering, so who knows.

 

[durabone]

Re: About David Icke & James Redfield

Oops I met him 97. wake up!

I just noticed that you posted two in a row.

What couple of reversals have you known (if you don't mind saying)?

Family member & my cat.

The first thought upon waking today had to do, I mean, with effect.

it's meant to effect on an emotional level.

What I said earlier that Icke's message repelling technical folk, er
I may have mis-estimated that.

My friend is smitten with Icke, we both discovered him same time.
He is also engineer, and has passionately been at 'other' types of
researches for at least 15 years. I have been expressing mis-givings
to him after noting the direction of Icke's work was taking since at
least 2003. (EDIT: Falling on deaf ears so far)

I woke up this morning with image of the framework of this emotional
manipulation enwrapping my friend.

I got this image of electrons in a semi-conductor. Some of them are
loose and drifting around slowly. To get there, the rest have to jump
across the valence gap from where they are currently orbiting. Arg.

If the intent of Icke's or his masters' work is to shape the conditions
for the 'crossing', then screaming about the same things that Alex Jones,
etc. do, may be a necessary part of gaining creedence with the their flock.
Think Goebbels, Hitler, and Sutler. Focus the anger how you want to.
Interesting to think that perhaps we are looking at a modern media-fried
version of what was formerly just a voice. I mean add to these, Limbaugh,
Vanity, and Beck and you're working on everyone - in little silos. (At least
you can get at the people who are only just now lifting their heads from the
economic yoke/trough you have fitted them with.)

With some of his "facts" he's even close to right,
but it's the meaning he gives to it which has the impact

That 10 percent dis-info, it's only 10 percent right?

Add another:

Inconsistifier pre-engineering.

My God. I thought the bullies in school were mean.

 

[Erna]

Re: About David Icke & James Redfield

http://www.disclose.tv/action/viewvideo/23121/David_Icke_Claims_He_Is_The_Son_Of_God/

Not too long ago we had a forum member who also saw himself as Jesus...

 

[durabone]

Re: About David Icke & James Redfield

Thanks E, but argh. Movie page won't open. Nice other link though, thanks. I never saw any of that.
I think I'll brave printing Agronaut's citation above and give it to my friend to read. He has some pretty
definite personal guidelines about showing respect for women. Might get through.

 

[Argonaut]

Re: About David Icke & James Redfield

What couple of reversals have you known (if you don't mind saying)?

Family member & my cat.

Your cat? What sort of reversal are you talking about here? :)

[quote author=potamus]

What I said earlier that Icke's message repelling technical folk, er
I may have mis-estimated that.

My friend is smitten with Icke, we both discovered him same time.
He is also engineer, and has passionately been at 'other' types of
researches for at least 15 years. I have been expressing mis-givings
to him after noting the direction of Icke's work was taking since at
least 2003. (EDIT: Falling on deaf ears so far)

[/quote]

Remember that one's intellect doesn't always relate to the beliefs one will accept. In fact, a lot of Icke's followers could be considered fairly intelligent people. When emotions are involved the intellect is often bypassed, or its put to work inventing excuses. Look at Christian scientists who take the Bible literally. What's needed to see through Icke's claims is being "spiritually streetwise" as he put it. A "smart" machine is still a machine.

[quote author=potamus]

I woke up this morning with image of the framework of this emotional
manipulation enwrapping my friend.

I got this image of electrons in a semi-conductor. Some of them are
loose and drifting around slowly. To get there, the rest have to jump
across the valence gap from where they are currently orbiting. Arg.

[/quote]

I'm not getting how this symbolizes emotional manipulation, can you explain?

[quote author=potamus]
If the intent of Icke's or his masters' work is to shape the conditions
for the 'crossing', then screaming about the same things that Alex Jones,
etc. do, may be a necessary part of gaining creedence with the their flock.
Think Goebbels, Hitler, and Sutler. Focus the anger how you want to.
[/quote]

This is very possibly what Icke is doing. Maybe he (or his influencers) know that for maximum impact, something more is needed besides the "love and light" New Age approach that he started with.

[quote author=potamus]

Interesting to think that perhaps we are looking at a modern media-fried
version of what was formerly just a voice. I mean add to these, Limbaugh,
Vanity, and Beck and you're working on everyone - in little silos. (At least
you can get at the people who are only just now lifting their heads from the
economic yoke/trough you have fitted them with.)

[/quote]

Yes, there is disinfo custom-made for every "taste."

[quote author=potamus]

With some of his "facts" he's even close to right,
but it's the meaning he gives to it which has the impact

That 10 percent dis-info, it's only 10 percent right?

[/quote]

That's how some might justify it, but a little cyanide can poison the whole drink. Besides, with Icke it's more like only 10% is NOT disinfo.

[quote author=potamus]
Add another:

Inconsistifier pre-engineering.
[/quote]

I'm not clear on what you mean by this, can you explain?

[quote author=potamus]

My God. I thought the bullies in school were mean.

[/quote]

Violating Free Will through manipulation is definitely a form of bullying, and can be much worse than the obvious kind.

 

[Argonaut]

Re: About David Icke & James Redfield

http://www.disclose.tv/action/viewvideo/23121/David_Icke_Claims_He_Is_The_Son_Of_God/

Thanks. He does seem to be saying that, doesn't he? I don't know though... I really would've like to hear the explanation he was starting to give. If that person had the original interview, why didn't he just put up the entire thing?

Not too long ago we had a forum member who also saw himself as Jesus...

I remember reading about him; it's amazing how well he pretended to be colinear while secretly thinking like he did. Also note EsoQuest's reference to his "extended psychedelic excursions." This is how he "learned" some of his "truths."

Thanks E, but argh. Movie page won't open.

The entire disclose.tv site seems to be down at the moment, so maybe you can try again later.

I think I'll brave printing Agronaut's citation above and give it to my friend to read. He has some pretty
definite personal guidelines about showing respect for women. Might get through.

I interpreted the excerpt in a different way - I saw it as Mari Shawsun using and manipulating Icke. Your interpretation could be right if Icke is lying, but we don't really know whether he is or not. Either way it points to the same thing - Icke cannot be trusted. So it still may be a valuable "lesson" for your friend that Icke isn't what he thinks.

Just remember to be externally considerate and respect his Free Will to follow Icke if he chooses. Showing him things is fine, but don't "beat him over the head" with it or keep pushing your position. :)