abovetopscret.com, Project SERPO, Project Camelot, Project Avalon

Laura

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"Project SERPO" story: HOAX

Now, regarding my recent exchanges with Bill Ryan, here are the most recent emails pasted in below. As we left the story, Ryan had written to us on March 2nd. We didn't reply. After a week, an email arrived in which it seemed that Bill Ryan was trying to agitate us to do something vis a vis ATS or to take his side or something. He gives it away in the first paragraph.

Date sent: Thu, 09 Mar 2006 14:14:06 +0000
Subject: More on ATS (continued)
From: Bill Ryan <bill.ryan@virgin.net>
To: Laura Knight-Jadczyk
Copies to: SOTT

Hi, Laura, Ark ­

A brief update: no need to reply if you are busy. But if I may, I¹d like to
keep you in the loop as the ATS saga rolls on, in case anything occurs which
is of value to your own enquiries.

I¹ve been told on good authority by someone who¹s likely to know what
they¹re talking about, and who wouldn¹t be deceitful (who asked that I¹d
never mention his name in connection with this, but whose name you would
know) that Val Hall set up the projectserpo.org site... and also was the
person who sent the anonymous abusive-threatening fakemail I forwarded to
you earlier.

I¹m now increasingly sure that there is an orchestrated campaign against me
and Serpo which goes beyond the venom of a few individuals. This is
orchestrated and deliberate.

Among the things that dawned on me from my attendance last week at the
Laughlin UFO Congress was that I was greeted with almost universal
appreciation and interest. That quite surprised me, as I¹d been braced for
criticism. But there was none WHATSOEVER. Furthermore, there was barely any
antagonism on the messages from the Serpo.org website contact form, which I
picked up yesterday (ten days¹ worth) all at once. The trashing is only from
a small minority who very badly want to create the perception that ³everyone
thinks Serpo is a hoax² and that ³everyone knows Bill Ryan is a liar² (etc).
This ³general perception² does not exist... but someone¹s certainly working
very hard to create it.

Best wishes to you both, Bill
We didn't take the bait. Three days went by and then this next one:

Date sent: Sun, 12 Mar 2006 13:11:59 +0000
Subject: ATS
From: Bill Ryan <bill.ryan@virgin.net>
To: Arkadiusz Jadczyk, Laura Knight-Jadczyk

Hi, Laura, Ark -

I have some hard information on the activities of ATS.

I want to get this out, but do not want to be associated with this myself.
It would cause large waves.

I¹d like to talk with you on the phone (not e-mail) - would this be secure?
When might be a good time? I¹m in the UK now and this week.

Best wishes, Bill
Fact is, I really wasn't interested. The game was, by now, so transparent that I had no real interest in talking to the guy and I really wasn't interested in "hard information" on ATS. I mean, if it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, it's a duck, right? I don't need anymore and it's not my job to go out there and flame ATS or launch some kind of campaign. We considered it to be quite enough to just defend ourselves from them and once that was done, leave it alone.

We discussed it here and it was suggested that I maybe this information was important and I ought not to reject it out of hand. So I wrote back:

From: Laura Knight-Jadczyk
To: Bill Ryan <bill.ryan@virgin.net>
Subject: Re: ATS
Copies to: SOTT
Date sent: Sun, 12 Mar 2006 16:35:56 +0100



On 12 Mar 2006, at 13:11, Bill Ryan wrote:
>
> I have some hard information on the activities of ATS.

Does it come with documentation?

>
> I want to get this out, but do not want to be associated with this myself. It
> would cause large waves.

Can't do anything if there is no documentation. Otherwise, it is just "he
said/she said." Still, I would be interested in hearing about it.

>
> I¹d like to talk with you on the phone (not e-mail) - would this be secure?

It's as secure as anyone's phone is I suppose. That's not saying much!

> When might be a good time? I¹m in the UK now and this week.

Evenings are good - between 8 and 9. If that's okay, I'll give you a call
about then.

Laura
An email shot back pretty quick from Bill as follows:

Date sent: Sun, 12 Mar 2006 18:52:07 +0000
Subject: Re: ATS
From: Bill Ryan <bill.ryan@virgin.net>
To: Laura Knight-Jadczyk

Hi, Laura ­ many thanks.

> Does it come with documentation?

Yes. 100% Rock solid. An E-mail from Wayne Jaeschke, the ATS lawyer. A
smoking gun forwarded by good friends in Wayne¹s loop who could no longer
tolerate seeing what was happening.

An image is attached. Please DO NOT do anything with this yet until we¹ve
spoken... I¹d like to talk it through with you carefully. Considerable
intelligence and care may be needed. (As you will appreciate from your own
various experiences :) )

Context may also needed, hence the phone call. To do with Serpo... I don¹t
know how much up to date you are. The essentials are these:

1) Victor was contacted by an anonymous DIA source in November and December
and received UFO disclosure information from him, which Victor released.

2) There was then a hiatus and the releases stopped. On 24 January, the
information continued, now being released via me. Victor had been dropped.

3) In February, Victor was re-contacted by his source, who explained that
my source was an impostor and instructed Victor to make a public statement
(a) discrediting me, and (b) that all information ever posted by me was to
be discarded and ignored as false.

4) The statement, written by Wayne and sent to Victor with instructions
that he should post it, was dubbed by Wayne the ³Black Friday statement².
Victor was going to post it but was persuaded not to by a senior source
within the intelligence community whom he respects (who is a good man and an
ally). Nevertheless, Victor still streamed to his list on 10 March an
announcement with the subject ³Project SERPO²: A new posting from Anonymous
came from an IMPOSTER!

5) I am told that Victor now knows the truth of this (as of a couple of
days ago). He has made no announcement and I have not heard from yet.

I have documentation showing incontrovertibly that Victor¹s new source was
Wayne Jaeschke, masquerading as Victor¹s DIA informant. Wayne¹s purpose was
to (a) destroy the release of the Serpo information, and (b) destroy me.
You¹ll be aware that this plan is already well in harness on the various ATS
threads at the moment.

Re a call, can you call my landline *****? Many thanks. My
cellphone may be compromised. Few people know of my landline (I rarely use
it as I¹m rarely here)!

Best to you both, Bill
Attached to this email was the "shocking proof" of the perfidy of ATS and the gang: an email alleged to be from the ATS atty to the ATS "Amigos." Yes, I checked the email of the alleged sender and it IS an attorney in the US in the Washington area, but I am going to remove his name and email address anyway. If he is an innocent party, it would be libelous and defmatory to associate him with ATS without more evidence.




As you can see, this email suggests that this attorney is the one behind the Project SERPO thing and that he and the ATS Amigos are the ones writing all the so-called statements and basically creating the whole story. Notice the smarminess of the alleged Victor Martinez email that the atty includes. It suggests that Victor is ready and waiting to present the "Black Friday" statement with some glee and that the whole operation is just a big game for a bunch of slimeballs. The question is, of course, is this "big expose" of an email even legit?

If it was, it just confirmed my opinion that ATS was behind the whole thing. If it wasn't, it also tended to confirm my opinion that ATS was up to something in this SERPO Tar Baby operation. What I wasn't sure of was whether or not Bill Ryan was part of the hoax from the git-go. I suspected he was, but decided to "test" him. The first part of the test was to just tell him straight out that SERPO was a hoax.

From: Laura Knight-Jadczyk
To: Bill Ryan <bill.ryan@virgin.net>
Subject: Re: ATS
Date sent: Sun, 12 Mar 2006 20:08:55 +0100



On 12 Mar 2006, at 18:52, Bill Ryan wrote:

> I have documentation showing incontrovertibly that Victor¹s new source was
> Wayne Jaeschke, masquerading as Victor¹s DIA informant. Wayne¹s purpose was
> to (a) destroy the release of the Serpo information, and (b) destroy me.
> You¹ll be aware that this plan is already well in harness on the various ATS
> threads at the moment.


All I can say about the Project Serpo thing is that, based on 14 years
experience researching and 30 years as a hypnotherapist, the Project Serpo
stuff is disinfo. That is, some truth with a lot of BS. It is designed to
have certain elements that can easily be exposed so that the true parts
(probably unsavory) will also be debunked.

Just think of how Bush's AWOL records from the national guard were handled
by Karl Rove. Exact same process.

If I were you, I'd put a lot of explanations about the process of how you
get the info and distance yourself from it and maybe even put a disclaimer
up saying that you suspect it to be disinfo and why, but here it is anyway
for researchers to analyze.

Will call in a bit.

Laura
After this, I called and the conversation I already reported took place in which Bill Ryan just played the part of the innocent UFO dabbler who had read a few books, was on Victor Martinez's political list, and just for no reason at all, Martinez picked him to get involved in the SERPO project. Ryan said that he was some kind of corporate motivational trainer and that raised red flags, but otherwise, there was nothing remarkable about him except is unremarkableness. That raised red flags. I also told him several times - even pressing the issue - that he ought to write a BIG disclaimer for the SERPO site and say that he had no way of confirming any of the material, he was just publishing it because it was fun or interesting to read. He resisted this suggestion repeating over and over again that even if it was a hoax, ATS had no right to try to destroy him over it.

Well, he had a point with that one. Thing is, it just seemed that he wanted ME to do something, to grab hold of the Tar Baby. So, I set up the rest of the "test." I told him there was nothing we could do that it was his problem, that if he was really worried about any of this he ought to just publish the whole backstory, including the image of the email from the alleged ATS atty, and be done with it. I told him that as soon as he published it let me know and I might make a comment on it in my blog.

Then the subject turned to a short discussion of other people. He asked me if I knew anything about Val Hall, supposed to be Mark Allin's wife. He declared that her posts were just EVIL. I've never read any of them but a couple of our researchers have and I received a report (with documentation) that Val Hall works for Halliburton in some capacity. I wasn't surprised. It's all an incestuous.

Finally, there was the discussion about David Icke where I made my position quite clear. He mentioned that ATS had recently "amalgamated" David Icke's discussion board into their COINTELPRO family of websites. I thought that was interesting. And then, of course, a day or two after this conversation, a link to our podcasts appeared on David Icke's discussion board. Coincidence? I think not. For me, it's the smoking gun that Bill Ryan is definitely in kahoots with ATS and gang and the whole thing is a big Tar Baby.

Then, there is a last email from Bill Ryan; another attempt to provoke something:

Date sent: Wed, 15 Mar 2006 11:38:11 +0000
Subject: The source of the fake mails
From: Bill Ryan <bill.ryan@virgin.net>
To: Laura Knight-Jadczyk

Hi, Laura -

Just as an update for you, after a complaint to sharpmail (the fake mail
providers), we¹ve found that the mail was sent by one **** ****, who lives in
New Zealand.

Further research has shown that **** *** posts on ATS as ***** ... and
that (significantly!) he is the second member ever to have registered at ATS
­ the first being Simon Gray himself. *** is not an admin or moderator, but
clearly he¹s shoulder-to-shoulder with the core team there. That¹s how come
he knew about the debunking serpo.org site (five hours after it was
registered) and it¹s inconceivable that the others at ATS did not know what
he had done.

With best wishes, Bill
It just looks like Ryan wants to associate himself with us; wants us to take up the fight on his behalf or something. For that reason, I'm putting it all on the record here.
 
S

schriss

Guest
Simon Grey: Christian Bailey: Abovetopsecret?

"EV1 could be a dis info source that links many sites together for the government." and theplanet.com thing:

EV1 and ThePlanet are just big hosting companies that rent thousands and thousands of webservers. I wouldn't try to link THEM to anything, I'm in hosting business since 2000 and I know that all they do is to provide hardware. Anyone can rent a webserver from them, register any domain and put offensive content onto it. It's like renting a car.
 
"Project SERPO" story: HOAX

Here's the Info from ATS - their take on the Faked Emails. They didn't like how the information was released by rdube02 on their site, as it portrayed ATS as possible bad guys. These guys are big on pointing out irresponsible acts by members but it seems their own irresponsible acts have no odor.

FYI - for their CC - They own all these typed letters originally, over at abovetopsecret.com llp
http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread198976/pg1
http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread198976/pg2
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SkepticOverlord - Bill Irvine
posted on 15-3-2006 at 03:39 PM Post Number: 2047626 (post id: 2072662)
quote: Originally posted by rdube02
He was far from just another member. He was one of the founding members with a UID of 2 just under SimonGray (1). If he was just another member, I would have simply forwarded his name to S.O. and let S.O. just quietly ban the guy. His status/standing at ATS was significant.
Your very wrong, and if you had come to me before creating sensationalist messages, I would have provided the reality to you.

He's #2 because he happened to register second on this the 4th database holding ATS posts. The first was EZ-Board, then Ikon Board, then a crashed version of XMB, then this version that I preserved for our transition to a dedicated server.

He never was anything close to a "founding member" and was even temporarily banned by Simon back in 2003 for similar lunacy.

Calling him a "founding member" without checking your facts was an irresponsible attempt to shed a negative light on ATS when there was none.

Sorry, but that's how I see it.
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SkepticOverlord - Bill Irvine
http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread198976/pg3
posted on 15-3-2006 at 03:53 PM Post Number: 2047659 (post id: 2072695)
quote: Originally posted by rdube02
You're probably right S.O. With hindsight, knowing now you (or others) weren't involved
Can you point to anything in our management style that would have brought about this wrong assumption?
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SkepticOverlord - Bill Irvine
posted on 15-3-2006 at 04:07 PM Post Number: 2047696 (post id: 2072732)
quote: Originally posted by rdube02
Plenty of people on these various boards have raised their own paranoid suspicions about ATS, quote a few unfounded suspicions. I doubt any of these are based on your management style - it's probably because you're running a conspiracy forum...?
I didn't ask about the unconfirmed rumors and assumptions of paranoid schizophrenics. I asked about our overt management style. What we do, not what others "think we do".
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Springer - Mark Allin
posted on 15-3-2006 at 04:11 PM Post Number: 2047701 (post id: 2072737)
He was FIRED for this type of stuff

Seems like this is getting lost in the drama of it all...

Netchicken's last words to me personally were "F" you"... He truly HATES my guts and I am pretty sure I was the personal target of his prank. After S.O., Simon and I decided to fire him, he went and plead his "case" to my Partners, Simon and S.O....

I read what he wrote in his own defense and against me, (we are partners and everything is open between the 3 of us) personally, it was childish, hurtful and pathetic. Childish, hurtful and pathetic just like the pranks and gags he likes to pull that cost him friends and "status" here months ago.

Some people just can't see past their next self satisfying move to notice the possibility others could be hurt by their actions. Some people just don't care.

As S.O. said, his family and colleagues were "stalked" by a freak who was enraged by Netchicken's antics elsewhere a couple years ago. We didn't find that out (that it was him irritating/pranking the other board) until months after the fact either... I remember talking to my FRIEND and Partner S.O., about this mess and he was genuinely WORRIED for his family and job.

My wife and I had to change our home phone number because of a disgruntled, twisted, former "friend" and staffer going NUTS. The "back side"/behind the scenes of a website this big is not always pretty to behold. We don't talk about this crap because it's not valuable to the membership and would sound like whining.

What can we say? The guy is GONE, we fired him MONTHS ago, way BEFORE serpo started, and incidentally, serpo has NEVER been more than a paltry 7% of our traffic PERIOD.

The insinuation that we would have anything to do with those emails for a "ratings boost" is beyond false, it's plain stupid.

The facts: we draw MILLIONS of people a month, 93% of whom, STILL, have NOT even heard of serpo.

Victor's email is pathetic but now we know who Victor Martinez is.

Springer...
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Centrist
posted on 15-3-2006 at 04:17 PM Post Number: 2047717 (post id: 2072753)
quote: Originally posted by rdube02
You pick out a single line that you can attack, inside a full page of proven fact. Typical.
No, it's a legal thing. One false statement suggests more might be present. It also suggests that your research was not complete when you posted it. If your intention was, in fact, to be fair and balanced, why did you rush to post before confirming your facts.

As for "proven". I'm not so sure. I think everyone believes that Netchicken is responsible, assuming that the data your relayed is factual and accurate. It's one thing to "believe" something, though. It's another thing to prove it.

As for the statement that I picked out, apparently I wasn't the first... as numerous posts above mine are addressing the exact same issue -- it was irresponsible of you to portray netchicken as a "founder" of ATS based solely on his user number.

External Source
li•bel
n.
A false publication, as in writing, print, signs, or pictures, that damages a person's reputation.
The act of presenting such material to the public.

If you're going to do research and post things in public that may damage someone's reputation or defame them in any way, your only defense is that you posted the truth. If material facts are incorrect and that is the cause of the defamation, then you're opening yourself up to accusations of libel.

Just something to be careful of, especially if you're going to post through Victor's list -- most of the "pedigree" on that last has been involved in a lawsuit at one time or another. Believe me, it's not a rite of passage to be coveted.
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http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread198976/pg6
SkepticOverlord - Bill Irvine
posted on 15-3-2006 at 08:33 PM Post Number: 2048297 (post id: 2073333)
quote: Originally posted by loam
If the guy was prepared to harass SO's family members, and even potentially jeopardize SO's job
To clear things up... NC wasn't involved in any way in anything like that. However, one of his jokes inspired some already disgruntled former members to go down that path.
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http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread198976/pg7
Simon Gray
posted on 16-3-2006 at 01:25 PM Post Number: 2049707 (post id: 2074743)
quote: Originally posted by rdube02
Ahh...well said Lazarus. Yes, i've apologized to S.O. & Springer off-line for making the assumption that netchicken was a "founding member". That assumption was from the fact that his UID was 2 and the date he registered (as shown in the members board, anyway) was only one day after SimonGray.
I'm pretty sure the exact reason for this is that when we transitioned from Ikonboard to XMB (at a distant time when yours truly was running everything, not very well either ), I basically introduced a clean install of XMB onto the server and registered myself as the first user.

Once I did this, I sent out a message to all the staff of the existing forums system that the next generation board was installed and ready to receive registrations. Netchicken was obviously the first off the mark and hence his registration was UID 2. After staff were advised of the new system, I advised members and things evolved from there.
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ME - what a crock - look at the ATS double standards with the promotion of CATHERDER, fair and balanced B.S. The "Pentagon Strike" was an effort to bring up all the evidence originally presented in the main stream that was then dumped in the trash bin in favor of the official version. And what did ATS do? Two of the three OWNERS ridiculed everyone on that board if they did not toe the line and get behind the official CATHERDER promotion. ATS assisted CATHERDER, put all his files on one of their servers, called the SOTT PentagonStrike "flashy bunk", ...

http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread79655/pg8
William Irvine - "It's very disappointing to see ignorance embraced like this. Why? Because the real information is not wrapped up in an exciting Flash animation with angry metal grind? Shall we change our motto? ignorance embraced"
http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread79655/pg8
Mark Allin - "PITIFUL... "CH" has proven his/her POINT beyond much of anything that even comes close to logic... But ALAS, as S.O. Points out, it is NOT wrapped up in a pretty flash animation filled with BUNK so it must NOT be beleived... Sad Day for ATS indeed... "


Does anyone out there think that when William Irvine implied that the Pentagon Strike was not real information. and Mark Allin said that the Pentagon Strike information was "BUNK", that both of them were ignorant to the fact that the "Pentagon Strike" by SOTT, was not associated with Cassiopaea?

Were they ignorant of the fact or were they fully cognizant and aware that they were specifically trashing Cassiopaea and SOTT when they made those statements?

I vacillate between thinking that part of this whole current mess - AboveTopSecret, Serpo, SOTT, is designed to keep ATS from taking a serious look at Cass and Laura's work. To keep ATS from investigating Vincent Bridges and the cointelpro network.

ATS has gotten too big and they want ATS to take out Cass or they want to prevent ATS from taking a serious look at the Cass / Vincent Bridges issue. (living up to that Deny Ignorance Bull they keep patting themselves on the back for)

Someone definitely wants ATS and Cass/Sott to be against one another. Vincent would poop his pants if a site as large as ATS actually did what he has never done and has always lied about and that is actually look into the evidence of all his lies and print the truth. Cass / Laura cannot do it, as it has never made a bit of difference. The truth has never mattered. Vincent can keep spouting lie after lie after lie and no one, no one will ever actually do the work and check up on his lies. No one. ATS has even bought it hook line and sinker. "DENY IGNORANCE" what a joke.

I have looked at several thousand posts at ATS. I see much of what they say does have evidence that is true. Netchicken was a member from way back. He did just happen to be the first person to respond to the opening of the latest incarnation of the ATS board. He did appear to be a prankster. He did have problems with doing thoughtless things. He was removed as a mod because of indiscretions and similar bad judgment. Netchicken fessed up on his own board, but thought it was just all fun and no big deal.

I just don't get ATS. The David Icke sponsoring/acquisition seems really idiotic. They spout all their great debunking and superior reasoning and then turn around and make a deal with this guy???? Do you think debunking some of David Icke's nonsense will ever see a real light of day on that board???

I just don't know. I have dug up the history. I see Simon Gray may have been some 15 year old kid with a fascination of Area51 and he started a small site. He was probably afraid to reveal his young age as it would probably lead to ridicule.

I see the different boards, ezboard, ikonboard, xmb, and the latest xmb.

I see William Irvine's history with Visionary Media, Wolf Interactive, MacroNYC, SportzTawk, (Visionary Media looks a little weird), Cossette Post Interactive, and ATS.

I see Mark Allin used to participate in other boards and had some problems where people were looking for him in what appears to be some kind of financial issue/squabble.

I see Valhall (Melissa Allin) and her involvement with Nasa, Halliburton, and research related to well drilling and shaped charges.

I see that William Irvine came along just at the right time to provide help it appears with hardware/software and most of all marketing. Almost every decision

I see that site appears to be marketing based, not to find truth, not to be balanced, not to do really anything, but market and promote itself. The CC is designed to market and promote. The recent CC change to require the crediting URL to send a user to the board and have to wade through tons of pages to find the information the referring post is talking about seems to be just another in a long line of marketing decisions designed to hook people, plain and simple, nothing else.

The CATHERDER debacle seems to be at least another marketing promotion.

Serpo seems to be a marketing promotion.

The tagging system seems to be a marketing promotion designed to spam the search engines.

How can these guys even start to claim "DENY IGNORANCE"? Their motto is actually "PROMOTE THYSELF ABOVE ALL ELSE".

I am ranting. I read many posts over there and I see a huge system that I am sure is very difficult to manage and I see that the 3 Amigos do make huge efforts to maintain reasonableness. And I understand that managing the Monster that it has become is a daunting task. But so many things give me the creeps about the site.
I can show dozens of instances where Mark Allin and William Irvine give lip service to Ethics, and Fairness, and reasonableness, and then turn around and do exactly the opposite. And then everyone stacks up in a queue to defend them and how great and reasonable they are. It is just silly sometimes. I don't know if they are just blind to their own actions, being so caught up in believing they are so great or if it is all designed to be exactly such as it is. It almost seems like split personalities at times.


DENY IGNORANCE, ETHICS, CRITICAL THINKING.. It all sounds good, but the proof is in the pudding and too many times it seems they are just dupes for the system or they are the system. Bill Irvine's and Mark Allin's positions on the CATHERDER article is just one example. Mark Allin's position on the WMD's thread is just another atrocious example of imposition of ignorance. (I realize he was not an owner at the time, none the less it shows his nature).

There are some simple facts in the whole CATHERDER affair. William Irvine and Mark Allin promoted it.

They basically implied that everyone on the site who didn't see things their way (CATHERDER's way) was ignorant.

They basically implied everyone on the site that still looked at the other evidence as embracing ignorance.

CATHERDER's article was sponsored and then promoted it in its own space, linked from their front page (and cleverly for marketing effect again on 9/11 2004). The whole article was assisted by them, all images sponsored on their disk space, and they thought it was the greatest thing since sliced bread.

Were they really just duped in this act or was it purposeful on their part to promote the Administration's line of events? And the timeline that it fell in with was so suspect. I can't find anything remotely resembling "DENY IGNORANCE" in this act.

I have a very difficult time believing Mark Allin and William Irvine did not know that the 'Flashy Bunk' was created and affiliated with SOTT/Cass. Their own words seem to indicate that they were well aware of it in 2004. Their own words seem to indicate that the CATHERDER article was in fact a response to the Cass/Sott Pentagon Strike information.

And that is what bothers me the most.

I think they knew it and I think it may have been related even to the trash and libel on their site from the Bridges gang. I think they may possibly even be working with Bridges. Vincent Bridges filth has been on their site for years, defaming Laura, Cass, Sott.

They talk about ETHICS and DENY IGNORANCE. How in good conscience could they allow such lying filth on their site? It is apparent they are aware of it.

Threads following the publishing of Joe Quinn's article in response to the CATHERDER promotion from ATS show they allowed members to post the filth and trash once again and William Irvine joins in and calls Cassiopaea a cult. Is Mr. Irvine Denying Ignorance? Is William Irvine that dumb that he would allow some two bit conman stalker to snooker him? It seems that Mr. Irvine, with his Superior Denying Ignorance Detection Organ in his Cartoon Superman Outfit would have at least one single piece of evidence to bring to bear before making such a public claim and defaming another person or group.

http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread79655/pg126
William Irvine - "And lately, attacks on "us" are coming from "conspiracy profiteers" who seek to sell books and other materials based on popular conspiracy theory mythos. This thread from CATHERDER is the latest and it comes from the Cassiopaea cult."


And with his supposed history of his own family being stalked by Internet misbegottens, I would think he would make at least a small piddly effort at seeking some truth before calling someone else such a thing.

But no, not one bit of research or evidence or verification or even a drop off his brow in effort. DENY IGNORANCE - pfft! - this is why I think the place is such a mess. They cannot see themselves for one moment. They are blind. And any effort at trying to provide an environment where people can possibly improve their thinking skills is over and over contradicted by their own actions and behaviors. They cannot even stand up to their own tests that they insist upon from everyone else. I see it over and over, again and again. Their words are empty.

Are they consciously CoIntelpro? It is looking more like it all the time. Let's see how this new Cable TV venture pans out and see how they are portrayed? Will they be the expert debunkers setting the world straight? I have no idea. But at this moment they are mostly helping to perpetuate ignorance, not deny it.
 

Laura

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"Project SERPO" story: HOAX

More stuff on the abovetopsecret.com Project SERPO COINTELPRO scam. The first email in this exchange refers to the above email from Bill Hamilton which starts:

From: "William Hamilton" <astroxplorer@...>
Date:Sat Mar 18, 2006 10:41 am
Subject:More info on the possible source of SERPO story xplorer2x

Alice Bradley Sheldon is a Sci-Fi writer.

Alice Bradley Sheldon ( wrote under the pen name James Tiptree)
Read the whole message in the post above.

Apparently, Victor Martinez responded to the claim that this sci-fi book was the basis for the SERPO hoax as follows (seems to have been a private email to Jerry Pippen, whoever he is):

----- Original Message -----
From: "Victor Martinez" <victorgm@webtv.net>
To: <jerrypippin@****>
Sent: Friday, March 17, 2006 9:55 PM
Subject: Re: The likely source for the SERPO story


JERRY:

Actually, I included this piece in one of the POSTINGS (#12 or #13),
so it's old news to me. BUT, until someone gets a hold of the actual book
we'll never know, now will we? I would say the phrase "hoaxed up
story" is more descriptive of the Burisch hoax than it is of SERPO!
Then, Victor gets this response from Jerry. This suggests that there has been some back and forth communication between Jerry and Bill Hamilton regarding the post above.

From: jerrypippin@****
Sent: Friday, March 17, 2006 10:59 PM
To: Victor Martinez
Cc: Larry Dicken
Subject: Re: The likely source for the SERPO story

Victor I agree. We have not done anything with it, I was just telling
hamilton he is a little behind the times.
Jerry
Next email is from a "Larry Dicken" connected to Larry Pippin, and that they have some interest in promoting the SERPO story. Notice that the sci-fi writer above has now been morphed into a secret agent:

From: Larry Dicken <dickenl@*****
Date: Sat, 18 Mar 2006 01:39:00 -0500
To: <jerrypippin@****, 'Victor Martinez'
Cc: Bill Hamilton <Astroxplorer@*****
Subject: RE: The likely source for the SERPO story

Actually, in my research, conducted right after the message from the
supposed ex-Whitehall employee turned up back in January, I determined
who this woman was. She was, before turning to full time writing, an
MI-6 not CIA agent, whose husband remained an MI-6 agent long after she
"retired." She was a famous English SCI-FI writer with a man's pen name
(James Tiptree, Jr.), which was not unusual at the time (SCI-FI authors
were real men - no ladies allowed).

It makes good common sense that Alice Sheldon could have penned the core
of the Serpo Story, which, as such, was given to her husband to use in
the cold war spy shock games, as the person posting on the ATS forum
from England stated. I think her creation might have born some
resemblance to the SERPO story, but I would guess that she only wrote
the equivalent of a 10-20 page short story, not a 3000 page log
transcription. Spy and politicians aren't interested in trilogy novels,
only short summary reports.

Also, by the time this story might have been laying on a desk in MI-6 in
1969 or 70, the real hay-day of cold war spying was over, and Alice
Sheldon was well on her way to being a prolific writer, not likely to
have much time or desire to do much spy-writing for her hubby. And, she
would only have written part of the story about the crew of 12 leaving
for Serpo in 1965 and perhaps her idea of what they would encounter
there. But, she could not have anticipated the trip home which did not
occur until 1978 or what might have happened up to 1969 or 70 when this
report was purportedly seen at Whitehall.

A common sense explanation, unsupported by vetted witnesses and
verifiable documents, should not be accepted as the truth. It is only an
interesting theory.

The premise that maybe the story, in full or part, appears in one of her
books has to date not been shown to be true, and until someone examines
every one of her books written from 1969 forward, I think there is no
evidence that the "Anonymous" Whitehall employee is correct in his
statements, as no other written material ascribed to Sheldon relating to
the SERPO story has been uncovered and presented.

It is quite equally possible that, because Alice Sheldon was a very well
know SCI-FI writer from England, this person who posted on ATS created
himself a plausible but fabricated story to try to prove that Project
Crystal Knight was a cold war spy ploy. One can easily assume that this
person is either planting a story under orders from the DIA, CIA or
whoever or is just another forum based private citizen seeking
attention. I go with the latter as being the explanation.

Again, we are dealing with hearsay. This ATS poster has no document in
hand, or any witness other than himself to prove that this "CIA" report
ever was seen at Whitehall. And, who ever said this was a CIA report?
Actually, it is purportedly, according to the SERPO "Anonymous" being
transcribed from DIA transcripts of debriefing tapes, all still stored
at DIA headquarters.

If you wanted to play spy games with the Russians the CIA or DIA would
likely have planted the little story using a willing American SCI-FI
writer to create it. Let's see if someone can find this man or woman
here in the US and produce the original manuscript and present it to the
armchair skeptics who are still trying to disprove the SERPO story with
theory, hearsay and character assassination.

The armchair skeptics don't really know whose character to attack. There
are only messengers for SERPO and no actual witnesses or experiencers of
the SERPO trip reality to attack. How frustrating it is for the
skeptics. Maybe that is the brilliance of this disclosure plan.

I personally am not convinced by the current evidence that the story
presented so far is totally the truth, but the real true story seems to
be there in the haze somewhere. I intend to keep looking and analyzing
instead of quickly stating an negative opinion and parroting the
unsubstantiated opinions of others.

Larry Dicken
Web Site and Executive Producer
The Jerry Pippin Show
www.jerrypippin.com
So, it seems that Larry Dicken's intention is to further the myth and add more fuel to the fire. I think the answer is pretty simple: The Abovtopsecret.com "amigos" with their National Security State backers, came up with the whole thing and Bill Ryan is just the Tar Baby.

But I digress. Next email in this series. Victor Martinez responds to this attempt to further the myth with not surprising enthusiasm:

From: Victor Martinez
Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2006 22:48:51 -0800
To: Larry Dicken
Cc: <jerrypippin@****, <Contact@serpo.org
Subject: RE: The likely source for the SERPO story

WOW! Brilliant piece! OUTstanding!
Obviously, Martinez is easily amused.

Bill Ryan next kicks in a comment on this myth revivifying post as follows:

From: Bill Ryan [mailto:bill.ryan@virgin.net]
Sent: Saturday, March 18, 2006 7:13 AM
To: Victor Martinez; Larry Dicken
Cc: jerrypippin@sbcglobal.net
Subject: Re: The likely source for the SERPO story

Hi, Larry, All

The ATS member "chapman" , who posted this, later admitted to hoaxing the
information in his posts.

Best wishes, Bill
Larry Dicken then responds to Bill and Victor:

To: "'Bill Ryan'"
"'Victor Martinez'"
Cc: <jerrypippin@****
Subject: RE: The likely source for the SERPO story
Date: Sat, 18 Mar 2006 12:00:54 -0500


Bill and Victor,

How true (booh hooh!). All that exposition somewhat for nothing in the
course of history. There is so much going on and so many topics, I don't remember
all the details, but I do remember the mention of the name Chapman and
ultimately his being exposed as a hoaxer by himself - so typical of the members of
the ATS forum. It's all a big "spy" computer game to these people - create
a hoax and see how many people fall for it and also play the white knight on
the horse charging forth to expose the hoaxers.


I know that none of us have time to "play kiddy games" with
ATS folks or any one else, who may, like me,
have forgotten what happened two months ago, or never heard about it until
now. I did copy Bill Hamilton on the original message to Victor. You must
admit, I called it right about Chapman being an attention seeking hoaxer himself
in my piece without naming the guy.

Victor, there is a message, below, that maybe should go out from me that I
excerpted and modified from the original message:

There continue to be armchair skeptics about in cyberspace, who are still
trying to disprove the SERPO story with the promotion of exotic theories,
hearsay and character assassination, as demonstrated by the revival and use of the
now "old news" ATS Forum-Chapman incident. These armchair skeptics don't
really know whose character to attack. There are only messengers for SERPO and
no actual witnesses or experiencers of the SERPO trip reality to attack. How
frustrating it is for the skeptics. Maybe that is the brilliance of this
disclosure plan.

I personally am not convinced by the current evidence that the story
presented so far is totally the truth, but the real true story seems to be there in
the haze somewhere. I intend to keep looking and analyzing instead of quickly
stating an negative opinion and parroting the unsubstantiated opinions of
others.

Larry Dicken
Web Site and Executive Producer
The Jerry Pippin Show

www.jerrypippin.com
So again, Dicken tries to breath new life into Serpo never realizing Bill and Victor are both - very likely - in on the whole ATS scam. But then, maybe Larry Dicken is also "in on it" ?

One thing is true: it's all a big computer game to the whole gang of them and they enjoy the heck out of "create
a hoax and see how many people fall for it and also play the white knight on the horse charging forth to expose the hoaxers."

If the email from the ATS atty I posted above is the "real deal," then we understand the sick mindset of these people and who is probably behind them.

We come back now to the first post in the series posted above of which I will quote a snip here for context:

From: ANTIGRAY@****
Date sent: Sun, 19 Mar 2006 03:10:18 EST
Subject: SERPO Story Exposed
To: jfirmage@i*****
Copies to: (snipped super long list of recipients)
Date forwarded: Sun, 19 Mar 2006 02:30:16 -0600

To: sarfatti@pacbell.net
From: antigray@****
SERPO Story Exposed

Hi Jack,

I dug up our previous information about Victior Martinez and am sending it to
the list members, along with information from Bill Hamilton about the science
fiction writer that originally wrote the Serpo story. Lets hope this expose
puts an end to this big waste of time. From now on if anyone receives further
spam from Martinez, they can just delete it. A few people have unsubscribed
already because of Victor's continual spamming.
Art

Hi Group,
Using Victor Martinez as a source throws up a lot of red flags, literally, as
he works under red flags, being an admitted communist agitator. For 7 months
last year he and a small group of other communist radicals invaded Dr. Jack
Sarfatti's open list of physicists who are working on advanced weapons and
propulsion projects for the USG and attacked the members and their work with nasty
comments, communist spam propaganda, etc. I personally spent a lot of time
counterattacking them as soon as they posted their propaganda and attacks and
exposing who they were and what they were doing so that the productive members of
the group did not have to waste their time answering them. They finally gave
up after I bitchslapped them day after day. The following is some emails
between myself and Dr. Jack Sarfatti when Martinez stopped his attacks on the
physicists and instead got into the disinformation game with the phony SERPO
stories.

Art Greenfield
All of the emails in this segment were forwarded to me by Art along with the following message:

From:ANTIGRAY@***
Date sent: Mon, 20 Mar 2006 00:19:36 EST
Subject: Re: SERPO Story Exposed
To: Laura Knight-Jadczyk

Hi Laura,

I heard back from Victor Martinez and answered him. I think you will find
this interesting.
Art
So here is what Art received back from Martinez, which included all of the above email exchanges between Victor, Dicken, Pippen, and Bill Ryan which Martinez presents as "proof" that the SERPO story is not a hoax:

Subj: The Truth about SERPO / The likely source for the SERPO story
Date:3/19/2006 11:40:47 AM Eastern Standard Time
From:victorgm@webtv.net
To:Antigray@****,
Sarfatti@pacbell.net
CC:Figaro@***
GKnapp@***
Astroxplorer@****
BarbVanderhoof@*****
Contact@serpo.org,
RPJMartin1971@yahoo.co.uk


Hey, ART:

1) "Project SERPO" story a hoax? Not according to the attached e-mail.

2) Also, if I remember correctly, Jack Sarfatti's friend, Professor
Emeritus, C Scott Littleton at Occidental University really put YOU in
your place as a neo-Nazi agitator on an open list,... remember that,
Art, for which you had NO comeback!

3) Now, if you'll excuse me, I must go light up with some of that
special weed I just love so much!
------------------------------------------
NOTE TO EVERYONE: While Art Greenfield promotes his book as NONfiction,
it's VERY IMPORTANT to note that it's officially listed by both Barnes &
Noble and Border's Books as:

"SF/FANTASY, Science Fiction" with a sales rank of 597,194!
Victor Martinez obviously functions at the mental and emotional age of six.

Here is Art Greenfield's reply to Martinez about all the emails quoted above that Martinez sent as "proof" that SERPO was not a hoax:

Subj: Re: The Truth about SERPO / The likely source for the SERPO story
Date: 3/19/2006 1:34:45 PM Eastern Standard Time
From: ANTIGRAY
To: victorgm@webtv.net
CC: Sarfatti@****
Figaro@*****
GKnapp@****
Astroxplorer@*****
BarbVanderhoof@****
Contact@serpo.org,
RPJMartin1971@yahoo.co.uk
skepticoverlord@abovetopsecret.com
sharkley1@panzerben1.fsworld.co.uk

Hi Victor,

Thanks for your response. I do have some questions for you since you seem to
be in a relaxed talkative mood. Please explain how a commie doper activist
such as yourself can be given classified information by a supposed Intel agency
or Intel agency ex-employee and given the job of spreading disinformation?
Doesn't anyone do background checks or drug testing anymore before they hire
disinfo agents? Sheesh. You'd think they'd release the SERPO information to
credible journalists like Bob Woodward if they wanted the public to believe it.

Let's hear the whole story on how you became the official mouthpiece to get the
news out, since you are not a credible journalist, scientist, etc., what gives?

Journalists like Woodward, Limbaugh, Sean Hannity, have very large audiences
and they would be eager to reveal news of somethiong like SERPO if it was true,
even if the source was anonymous. Woodward did it previously with his
anonymous source, "Deep Throat." So, why would someone use you as a "Deep Throat?" (I
know there is an obvious joke in there but I will resist the temptation.)
You have no audience or credibility. What's up with that? Don't they want the
story to be believed?

If Scott Littleton was calling me a neo-Nazi agitator on an open list, I did
not answer it because I never saw it. Send me a copy of it if you have it.
Maybe he is still mad at me because I exposed his clever use of half truths.

I think it is hilarious that Barnes &Noble and Borders have misclassified my
book as science fiction. It could explain why it is selling so well there. My
publisher has my book classified under "history" because most of the
information about what our alien Repto Sapien cousins have done to us in the past is of
a historical nature. I was just thinking about having my publisher contact B &
N and Borders to change the classification but I have a feeling they
misclassified it on purpose as a business decision because they needed sci-fi titles
to sell which would make them a lot more money on volume. It could also explain
why I was approached by a major movie studio to do a screenplay from my book
because they are interested in making a movie out of it. I am collaborating
with Kim Schwartz, an experienced studio screenplay writer right now to do the
screenplay. Sci-fi movies are the biggest blockbusters. This is really weird.

Now what would really be funny is if you become a whistleblower and tell the
bookstores and movie studio that my book is not sci-fi, it is all real!!!

Hahahaha. Too funny. I might send you a free copy of the book for the added
publicity.

Art
And there it sits. Obviously, the Sarfatti gang don't have a clue that abovetopsecret.com is producing SERPO as part of the whole "smoke and mirrors" COINTELPRO show funded by the Pentagon, no doubt.
 

Laura

Administrator
Administrator
Moderator
FOTCM Member
Simon Grey: Christian Bailey: Abovetopsecret?

More data on the abovetopsecret.com gang an the SERPO nonsense here:

http://www.cassiopaea.org/forum/index.php?topic=523&p=2
 
R

RichM

Guest
"Project SERPO" story: HOAX

Art Greenfield's language made me chuckle. Were his choice use of phrases like "degenerate admitted commie pothead" not intended to be taken seriously, I would have assumed it to be some kind of parody of a HUAC zealot! Po-faced is what it is as Greenfield frequently cannot see the wood for the trees with all the red mist in front of his eyes.

His appallingly badly-written book is essentially a film pitch in which the "reptoid aliens" harvest humans on fifty year cycles. Greenfield seriously suggests that we develop a weapon to shoot down one of these space critters, drag their craft into the local Sheriff's office where the occupant would be arrested and the cover-up exposed. Yee haw cowboy!

http://antigray.tripod.com/

"Reptoid aliens have been using us as a food resource for thousands of years. They came from Earth originally.

The aliens cause wars and plagues to start every 30 to 50 years to generate a large supply of meat

The government knows about it but keeps quiet to avoid public panic.

The military has taken some defensive measures: HAARP, advanced space warcraft, deep space and global surveillance satellites, and hunter-killer satellites.

We need to go on an all-out full scale war footing to build a huge defense force."

I leave it to you to judge his agenda.

He very much sees himself as Jack Sarfatti's sidekick and protector of the sacred flame of science, defending The Flag against the ceaseless hordes of commie agitators.

Quite telling that Greenfield considers that bastion of journalist objectivity, Rush Limbaugh, to be credible. Now excuse me while I go and wipe the tears of mirth from my eyes....
 
R

RichM

Guest
"Project SERPO" story: HOAX

Here's a little interesting you-scratch-my-back situation. The email below was apparently posted by one of the ATS mods, Springer, in defence of Bill Ryan and encouraging people not to look too closely at his background. This is the same ATS/Springer I assume? (Tho this support may predate the recent ATS/Ryan split?).

http://www.projectserpo.org/project_serpo_04.html

"Springer posted on January 19, 2006 at 13:58 CC deed

I know my words "carry NO MORE weight" than anyone else's around here just because I am one of the owners BUT, for what it's worth, I can honestly say that I am 100% convinced, beyond a shadow of a shadow of a doubt that Bill Ryan is exactly what he claims to be, an honest messenger.

I do have access to the server logs and IP addresses of everyone who posts here so I can also attest to the fact that Mr. Ryan is "where" he claims to be when he claims to be somewhere. No proxies, no spoofs, plain old IP address. :)

More time spent on the mysterious and less on Bill Ryan seems more logical to me.

Springer...

[edit on 1-19-2006 by Springer]"
 

Laura

Administrator
Administrator
Moderator
FOTCM Member
"Project SERPO" story: HOAX

RichM said:
Art Greenfield's language made me chuckle.
Me too. It was like something out of the McCarthy era... those guys need to forget the 50s and 60s and wake up in the real world. I sent him links to the cointelpro articles. If he reads them, he'll have a coronary fer shure.

In any event, he did send on the email exchange which adds some data.

By the way, I just noticed that your own email addy is on the email from Art and you obviously know him. You seem to be grouped with the "serpo" and ATS crowd. What's up with that?
 

Renaissance

Ambassador
Ambassador
FOTCM Member
Simon Grey: Christian Bailey: Abovetopsecret?

schriss said:
EV1 and ThePlanet are just big hosting companies that rent thousands and thousands of webservers. I wouldn't try to link THEM to anything, I'm in hosting business since 2000 and I know that all they do is to provide hardware. Anyone can rent a webserver from them, register any domain and put offensive content onto it. It's like renting a car.
If a car rental service repeatedly rents to customers who intently run people over, some might have the inclination to question them; particularly when they refuse to do anything about it.
 
R

RichM

Guest
"Project SERPO" story: HOAX

Well my addy was added onto, co-opted you might say, to Victor Martinez's apparently massive distribution list sometime ago. His mailings were just bits and pieces of interesting news. I found it very interesting reading the emails of certain Avarians. Altho I am definitely the civilian outside on a list of mil, intel and corporate types. It wasn't until the end of last year that the Serpo material appeared that I really started paying attention.

I don't know Art Greenfield anymore than I know you. Victor tells me that Jack Sarfatti passed the distribution list to him and then I opened my email on Monday to find Greenfield was on the attack. I've read Greenfield's silly book of course.

So in a sense, you are right saying I am grouped with them, I'm on the distribution list but so are about a thousand other people.

Am certainly not involved with the ATS crowd altho as you can see for yourself, I'm obviously aware of some of the to-ings and fro-ings.

I'm sure you belong to other egroups that have a wide membership with considerable variation in political views, yes? Please don't assume guilt by association.
 

Laura

Administrator
Administrator
Moderator
FOTCM Member
"Project SERPO" story: HOAX

RichM said:
Please don't assume guilt by association.
Wasn't assuming, was asking "what's up with that?" And no, I don't belong to other egroups with wide variation in political views. Haven't got time for them. Ark is on Sarfatti's list from way back, and he generally doesn't even read it.
 

Laura

Administrator
Administrator
Moderator
FOTCM Member
abovetopscret.com EXPOSED!!!!

Complaints from ATS ATTY that HE was getting death threats as a result of our exposure of what he and Abovetopsecret are up to. He was screaming at our server people and threatening lawsuits. We are forced to remove the post that formerly occupied this spot. We will be posting the information elsewhere and will post an announcement soon as to location.
 

Laura

Administrator
Administrator
Moderator
FOTCM Member
"Project SERPO" story: HOAX

Complaints from ATS ATTY that HE was getting death threats as a result of our exposure of what he and Abovetopsecret are up to. He was screaming at our server people and threatening lawsuits. We are forced to remove the post that formerly occupied this spot. We will be posting the information elsewhere and will post an announcement soon as to location.

See also this thread:

http://www.cassiopaea.org/forum/index.php?topic=751
 

Laura

Administrator
Administrator
Moderator
FOTCM Member
Simon Grey: Christian Bailey: Abovetopsecret?

Complaints from ATS ATTY that HE was getting death threats as a result of our exposure of what he and Abovetopsecret are up to. He was screaming at our server people and threatening lawsuits. We are forced to remove the post that originally occupied this spot. We will be posting the information elsewhere and will post an announcement soon as to location.

See also this thread:
http://www.cassiopaea.org/forum/index.php?topic=751
 
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