ARE YOU FREE ?

[Iain'tgoin'tonocamp!]

I am not in fear, but I can't evolve spiritually without taking certain measures to protect myself, the PTB want to control our spiritual development because they realize like most people in these forums have realized that we are approaching a period of spiritual reawakening. This control essentially boils down to true freedom, the freedom we will achieve if we make it to 2012, I believe. I know it is possible to reach this 'true freedom' before then if you read and practice and dedicate yourself strenuosly, and I am trying as best I can, and that's the honest truth, but time still applies to my world right now, and the time of being able to comfortably practice spiritual evolution is ending. So if I am to be able to continue this spiritual development, I need to take additional measures to ensure that I will be able to do so. The funny thing is, I've known on some level or another that the world was going to shite for many years (I'm 23), but I was still absorbed with problems in my past (born out of wedlock, custody agreements, domestic abuse, anger, hate, rage, etc.), it all came to a head a while back and it nearly cost me my "one and only", this period coincided with a passage I read in a forum about that computer program that scans message boards to predict the future by anart, the passage mentions that the program is saying that something big (100 times the emotional impact of Katrina) goes down in late august, early september. Surprising as it may seem, that one passage changed my life, after realizing economic collapse was just around the corner, I found myself happy, calm, and forgiving of the past transgressions of my loved ones, because it was in that moment that I began to think: "How many people don't know this is coming, and how many have a feeling but refuse to feel it? Millions, possibly billions. But now you know, and you can prepare, you have a window to get your shite together so you won't become a total slave, you have the chance to inform as many people as possible." In the end, I am a nut about freedom. I cannot and will not allow anyone to tell me how to think, act, behave, what to do, when to do it, etc. So that is where the gun issue begins, at some point the PTB stop politely coercing you into enslavement, put a gun to your head and say: "Do as I say, or else.". I realize a gun is not the be all, end all item to ensure freedom, but despite what cricket says, for the next 7-10 years, a gun will go a long way in ensuring that you have a chance to live a free life. After that, or even before that maybe, if I find myself in the position where self-defense is no longer necessary, than I'll bury the damned things and say good riddance. But until that moment, I think I will hold onto one, just in case.

 

[anart]

My thinking on this is rather simple (and pretty selfish, really) - ain't no way that I am going to create any more karmic ties to resolve, by shooting someone. Period. I'm tired of playing in this dirt field, and going out with guns a'blazing is one 'sure fire' way to have to return here to resolve things, once again. If you want to 'defend' yourself into another couple of lifetimes down here, have at it - I simply have no interest in doing that. I figure if someone feels the need/duty to round me up or to 'take me out' -my having a gun is not going to stop them. I'm not so attached to this body, or this lifetime that I would kill or hurt someone else to keep it.
I realize that I probably sound like a loon - but I'm being completly honest - it's just not worth having to return here again to work off some karmic debt I created by shooting some soldier/officer/agent because they were going to shoot me first. Perhaps I'm off in left field on this one (it would not be the first time) -but hey, that's how I see it at the moment.

 

[Iain'tgoin'tonocamp!]

I am not Butch Cassidy. I don't plan on goin out guns blazin'. But lets think about the issue of 'karmic debt' for a moment, if a man comes to me with a gun, and his intent is to kill me, that man already has plenty of it and is about to add a bit more, if I, being an honest, kind, loving person decide to shoot him before he shoots me so that I may continue living an honest, kind, loving life, how have I created 'karmic debt' for myself? I just don't see that I could be considered in debt for taking a completely fair measure to ensure my inalienable right to live free.


Btw- thanks for that alta 404 post, I'm getting my supplies ready as I write this. :]

 

[anart]

Interesting. I don't see it that way, although I do understand why you might. I suppose for me (and, of course, that means this applies to not one other person, unless they see things the same way), any act of violence against another person draws me into that person; it makes a connection based on violence. I simply don't want those connections with people. I suppose it is the portion of the event in which I CHOOSE to be violent that bothers me. The person attacking me may be fulfilling a previous karmic situation, in which I am involved, from lifetimes ago. That is fine. I simply want to make sure that all of my actions in this lifetime are based on a level of understanding that transcends any type of violence - even emotional violence. I know that I will make, and have made, mistakes in this regard, but, at present, I put a lot of effort into basing all of my actions on an ever-increasing level of understanding of not only myself, but of the universe and life as a whole. While I completely respect your right to choose (or anyone's right to choose) to use violence as they see fit, violence is simply something that seems to run contrary to everything I am and want to be. I don't pretend to know exactly how karma works, but it seems to me that one's intention surely has a lot to do with it, and since intentions are based in understandings and in the level of knowledge one possesses at any certain time, I could see why you believe that no karmic tie would be created by such an act. However, just because I can follow your logic doesn't mean that I agree - for myself - with its conclusion. If I were to assume that your desire to be here in 2012 is related to the Wave, or to an opportunity to transcend third density, then doesn't it seem a little odd to kill someone else (which I see as just about the most 3rd density, physically negative interaction in which you can participate) in order to defend and prolong your third density experience? It just seems counter-intuitive to me. Why would you use physical violence to ensure your continued physical existence until a time that you have determined to be 'when' you would have an opportunity to transcend physicality? It seems as if you are making a conscious decision to defend the very physicality that you are hoping to transcend. I'm not certain that 2012 is 'the year', but I'm sure your point is that you want to be around long enough to be a part of whatever happens. Well, what if the actions you take to make sure you are around long enough, remove that opportunity to transcend from your future? If you play in the dirt, you're gonna get dirty - and, to me, violent actions are playing in the dirt. Again, I'm just explaining my own impressions, my own sense of how I interact with the universe and that does not mean that you are or should be the same way.

 

[knowledge_of_self]

My thinking on this is rather simple (and pretty selfish, really) - ain't no way that I am going to create any more karmic ties to resolve, by shooting someone. Period. I'm tired of playing in this dirt field, and going out with guns a'blazing is one 'sure fire' way to have to return here to resolve things, once again. If you want to 'defend' yourself into another couple of lifetimes down here, have at it - I simply have no interest in doing that. I figure if someone feels the need/duty to round me up or to 'take me out' -my having a gun is not going to stop them. I'm not so attached to this body, or this lifetime that I would kill or hurt someone else to keep it.
I realize that I probably sound like a loon - but I'm being completly honest - it's just not worth having to return here again to work off some karmic debt I created by shooting some soldier/officer/agent because they were going to shoot me first. Perhaps I'm off in left field on this one (it would not be the first time) -but hey, that's how I see it at the moment.

Anart,
If you are out on "left field" on this one, I'm right there with you.
Your comments are some things that I have also thought about in regards to "karmic debt". An example of what I was thinking about is, you never know who that solder/agent/whatever could be that is pointing a gun at you. Maybe you were some Nazi in a "past life" that put him in a concentration camp, and now he is repaying you with his act, who knows? Things can be so much more complicated, than what they seem to us at this moment, especially because we have a 3D STS linear perspective.
One of the other things that I have learned about from Castaneda is what you are describing here as you "not being attached to this body/lifetime". He talks about how we are all "personally identifying" with one thing or another. For example we identify with our "personal history", which maybe be one of the causes of our attachment, and thus causes us to "come back", over and over.

I am not in fear, but I can't evolve spiritually without taking certain measures to protect myself

Here, again you are saying "I am not in fear, BUT..." ask your self, is this "but" coming from your "reason", or your "will"?

realize a gun is not the be all, end all item to ensure freedom, but despite what cricket says, for the next 7-10 years, a gun will go a long way in ensuring that you have a chance to live a free life

Here, I think you are one that is wish-fully thinking. You have totally, and I think unintentionally bought into the PTB's trap for you, but this is just my opinion, and I could be totally wrong. There is a quote that I recall that explains the thought I have right now quite well, although I don't recall who it is by or where I have read it, but it goes something like:
"Whoever fights 'monsters' should be careful to not become one, for when you look into the abyss, the abyss looks into you."

Nina

 

[Cricket]

Just wanted to drop in to say I am reading but cannot reply right now. Will do it latter, erasing this notice (considering the next posts to this one, of course).
Iain'tgoin'tonocamp!, at the end of the post where you were answering me, you wrote: -You pontificate while I prepare and even after your ridicule I still don't mind to share.-
If you consider you deserve respect from other persons, and if you think you can hold a educated, and thus, non-ridicule discussion among equals (you do think your interlocutors are at least at the same level that you are, dont you?), I am asking you to please remove that line from your post, which I find more sarcastic than funny, and that is not quite proper for someone aiming high.
Thanks.

 

[Iain'tgoin'tonocamp!]

I certainly consider us all equals, though I would say that when you put quotations around the word peace ("peace".), at the end of your initial response that started this discussion, that there was a hint of 'sarcasm' in that one word as well. I apologize for the statement and for however it made you feel. To address 'knowledge-of-self', the quote at the end is a good one, be assured that I plan to fight monsters, and I don't plan on becoming one, I don't plan on harming anything innocent, either. The debate were having here is a good one, and I believe esoquest's 'wimp' analogy is an excellent way to describe what I'm doing. I don't believe violence in the name of protecting oneself establishes karmic debt, I believe the hate, rage and maliciousness required to be the aggressor has plenty of it. Think about this discussion we are having right now, we all know full well that soon forums such as these WILL NOT EXIST! Furthermore, if you were caught attempting to discuss something of this nature, for that matter, anything near this nature, you would be persecuted, tortured and more than likely killed. So how will all of you feel when you can no longer keep up with reality, when you can no longer honestly express yourself to other human beings, when you literally will no longer be allowed to feel true love, true freedom and all that comes with it? How will it feel to be disconnected against your will? How will it feel when your reason will be warped by modern technology? Again, I am taking particular measures that I think are necessary so that I potentially won't have to ask myself these questions. Some of you disagree, some of you understand. My owning a weapon does not endanger any of you, and it does not endanger me any more than not owning one would, because soon danger will simply be surrounding us on all sides. This is my path.

 

[anart]

So how will all of you feel when you can no longer keep up with reality, when you can no longer honestly express yourself to other human beings, when you literally will no longer be allowed to feel true love, true freedom and all that comes with it? How will it feel to be disconnected against your will? How will it feel when your reason will be warped by modern technology? Again, I am taking particular measures that I think are necessary so that I potentially won't have to ask myself these questions.

Well, I'm afraid that you've lost all credibility with me at this point. This rant of yours reflects a mind so steeped in fear as to be verging on dysfunction. You have also shown an extreme defensiveness, as if someone here is judging you, which no one is. We accept that you believe that you need your gun, and that somehow this gun will deliver you from the future you have detailed above for the rest of us - this must be truly some magic gun.

 

[the all-encompassing egg]

Hello everyone. I've been reading this thread since the beginning and feel compelled to join in the discussion. For clarity's sake, and for my sake as well, I'm going to ask some questions. I'm a bit confused on everyone's position here. I have a few questions I'm hoping all or at least some of you will answer.

1. What do all of you intend on doing when 'the crap hits the fan'? I've heard all sorts of things. Some of you are ready to defend yourselves, in many different ways. Some of you feel that being spiritually conscious is enough preparation. Some of you are going to live your lives, as you do now, to the end and feel that when it's your time to go then it must be. And on it goes.

2. (to all those ready to defend yourselves) I'm wondering your motives on this? I can see this issue from many sides and all of them make sense in their contexts. Some of you are not willing to be killed by aggressors with sinister motives, you see the world and where it's going and you see yourself fighting the good fight. You see yourself doing 'good' and keeping the balance. I can understand this, even though I do not necessarily believe in fighting on the whole. Obviously if you are on this message board then you are living your life with purpose different than 'the norm.' There needs to be many many more people like yourselves, I believe. I can sympathize with this view because there needs to be a balance and we all can see that the balance has very much slipped to sinister ways. I can see that people like yourselves would not start aggressions, but you would be there and ready to protect yourselves and the ones you love when it comes. There is nothing wrong with this. We all have to remember that Karma has conscious like all of us do, everything has conscious, and I believe that in situations like this Karma would have understanding. I'm sure you're thinking that if we all play a passive role, then there will be none of 'us' left. I can respect this. We all know that everything goes in cycles. I've not yet accepted the wide- oft. biblical- belief on our destiny into oblivion. I feel strength in all of us, it's still here. I'd like to know your views.

3. (to those taking the spiritually conscious path) I feel this in me as well. My conscious is growing; I know I have embarked on a long journey. I'm wondering how spiritually conscious everyone is? There is no set scale, though some of us are just now awakening and some of us have been awake for years upon years. I'll tell you, I am gaining information and slowly I am beginning to apply it and make it knowledge. I can only hope I will be guided and humbled enough to call it wisdom someday. At the point I'm at now, I know I am still very green. I do not have a teacher, although I can feel one coming. I'm curious to what everyone will do consciously to survive, and please be specific. Also, is it possible to utilize your conscious in this way, even- and especially- when one is so green like myself? I believe it's easy to say what you're going to do, harder to do what you've said, so I know that when we're tested this will be the most difficult path. I know that even the most spiritually attuned have fought and will fight, and so I'm wondering if some feel this? I realize that fighting something makes you it's polar opposite. Do you feel that to be spiritually conscious you do not fight? Or maybe that the rules change? I have many more questions that I would like to ask, and will, once I hear responses.

4. (to those who will live as they do until they cannot anymore) Is there anything you are doing to prepare at all? I'm curious about this. I must say, although I can see this view point, it is the hardest for me to fully understand. You are here. You are informed. You are alive and you are different. I feel that we are all given the tools to get to the same places, but that certain people are destined to be 'here.' So, with all the gifts you've been given, it is hard for me to understand how you can keep living as 'usual' and yet be 'sitting and waiting' for it to come as well. (I would think that a blanket of ignorance would be of great comfort to people who agree with this view- I could be wrong.) If you're posting on this message board, then there must be some concern inside yourself about what is going on. It's very interesting that one who has this view would feel compelled to be informed, especially with the knowing that more information could make it harder to meet the goal of just living. Or maybe one finds motivation to live life to the fullest though this view? Or maybe you find yourself being spiritually conscious and feeling your role is to live and depart when it's your time? I do have one more question though. I find it most interesting that people who are informed and spiritually conscious would find their end in the hands of the masses who are ignorant &/or trapped in illusion, and above that, by the very few who control the many and who are so sinister in their motives- i.e. the ones we read about and the ones who upset/concern/outrage us everyday. I suppose it would not be the first time. I'd like to know your views on this.

5. If you hold another view, please make it heard. Every view on this is important and I would feel so privilaged to hear each one. You would be helping my understanding, as well as everyone else's.

I thank you for reading this. Whatever your response may be, I hold respect for you. Thank you.

 

[Iain'tgoin'tonocamp!]

The definition of rant is as follows: "To speak or write in an angry or violent manner." My last post was neither of those things, I calmly explained why I believe a weapon is necessary, that's all. You then decide without knowing me that I am "steeped in fear" and "verging on dysfunction". As well, I calmly described why I believe a weapon is necessary at the present time, this apparently was enough for you to judge me on a whole and say that I've lost my credibility. Your post was utter nonsense. The future I described is coming, and everyone who comments on this thread merely needs to click on 'the signs page' and then scroll down to the headlines to prove my point. Interesting, your attitude towards me was changed AFTER I pointed out that your ability to express how you feel will soon be taken away without your consent, something to think about. The debate here will not end in consensus, some will feel a weapon is necessary, some won't. But aside from my 'pontificating' remark aimed at cricket, which I apologized for, I have not been a disruption, I have not been unfair or cruel, I have not put down anyone commenting here. So, what you just posted was completely unfounded, and given what I have seen of your posts, in this forum and others, very uncharacteristic of you. I am finished with this discussion, not only because I feel nothing more can come of it, but because I don't appreciate being lambasted for peacefully describing my thoughts by a "moderator". Btw, the definition of moderate is as follows: "Being within reasonable limits; not excessive or extreme.". Your one heck of a moderator anart.

 

[Beau]

The definition of rant is as follows: "To speak or write in an angry or violent manner." My last post was neither of those things

Some people have different definitions of a rant. I personally rant all the time, without being angry of violent. So your legalistic definitions are quite subjective, imho. Whether or not you were ranting is insignificant. What is important is how you reacted to what someone else said. Are you trying to win some debate? It's absolutely pointless to say, "This is what a rant is, and see, I didn't do that. So you are wrong, ha ha." That's much to childish for this forum.

I have not been a disruption, I have not been unfair or cruel, I have not put down anyone commenting here.

Again, that's subjective. But you manage to do all those things in the following sentences:

because I don't appreciate being lambasted for peacefully describing my thoughts by a "moderator". Btw, the definition of moderate is as follows: "Being within reasonable limits; not excessive or extreme.". Your one heck of a moderator anart.

Looks like you couldn't help yourself. Obviously you have very little respect for a moderator, to put it in quotes. And using the definition of moderate is just pointless, it has nothing to do with moderating this forum. And at the end, you put down anart. Right after you try to point out how you are not being a distraction. And why, because she dared to question your motives? It certainly reads like you have little respect for anyone else's opinions.

So, I hope you do act on your words and be "finished with this discussion". It's obvious you see this as a debate to be won, not a discussion from which greater clarity on seeing the world will come about. In that vein, you are being a distraction. Or so I think.

 

[the all-encompassing egg]

Beau, to the credit of Iain'tgoin'tonocamp!, anart did say "This rant of yours reflects a mind so steeped in fear as to be verging on dysfunction." That's quite a judgment call on anyone's part, especially that of a moderator, and I find it hard to believe that it was necessary.

With no disrespect to you or anart at all, saying something like that is just as much of a put down as anything Iain'tgoin'tonocamp! has said. I'm not making excuses on anyone's part, but we all need to remember to respect one another and I do believe that goes for everyone. I'm sure you would agree that any personal attacks or judgment calls do not belong in this forum.

 

[Rhansen]

I'll have to agree that violence is not the answer to any situation (best to just keep a low profile), no matter how gratifying it may be, but I still believe in the right to bear arms. A gun is a tool - nothing more - and my reason for keeping one is that if/when the poo hits the rotating blades and food becomes scarce it will be handy to hunt with (surplus of deer around here). I could get by without one but in the interest of laziness I keep a single shot 12 gauge.
Don't forget that wars have been fought and many have died without the use of firearms (abeit less efficiently). a psychopath will find a suitable means to commit violence (knife, club, etc...).

 

[Iain'tgoin'tonocamp!]

Oh-kaaaay... well, looks like the gang showed up. This will be my last post in this forum. I will try not to offend anyone. Let's review, the passage that anart quotes from me is: "So how will all of you feel when you can no longer keep up with reality, when you can no longer honestly express yourself to other human beings, when you literally will no longer be allowed to feel true love, true freedom and all that comes with it? How will it feel to be disconnected against your will? How will it feel when your reason will be warped by modern technology? Again, I am taking particular measures that I think are necessary so that I potentially won't have to ask myself these questions. Some of you disagree, some of you understand." This is the passage that is quoted, anart then says: "Well, I'm afraid that you've lost all credibility with me at this point. This rant of yours reflects a mind so steeped in fear as to be verging on dysfunction. You have also shown an extreme defensiveness, as if someone here is judging you, which no one is." ...wait a minute, please hold on, I haven't shown "extreme defensiveness", am I opinionated, yes, but who isn't? But what really gets me is the "as if someone here is judging you, which no one is." THAT IS EXACTLY WHAT ANART DID, ONLY ONE SENTENCE PRIOR!!! Wait, before you lift your chin, let us review one more time: "This rant of yours reflects a mind so steeped in fear as to be on the verge of dysfunction..." Ladies and gentlemen, that is judgement. Sorry, that is what it is. No getting past it. I'm sorry, but the post I wrote that drove anart to judge was not a rant, because I've ranted, just like you have beau, and I can tell you from experience that that particular post just wasn't a rant. So forgive for me being a bit defensive. By definition if when your are conversing or writing, and it is not angry or violent in nature, well, then it is not a rant. You can't just dilute the meaning of a word to benefit your argument. You know, beau, you were right about the: "Looks like you couldn't help yourself." part. I am sorry. But that's where your rightness ends. I don't have any problem with anyone, moderator or not, so long as they don't engage in judging me when they are in no place to do so. What are my motives? I am here, sitting in front of a screen and keyboard, telling a small group of relatively like-minded people that I, personally, plan on having a weapon to protect myself in the coming years, that's it. No more motive after that, and I certainly do have respect for other people's opinions, including yours. Furthermore, I never had any intention of turning this into a debate to be won. I have an opinion, others have a different one, they ask questions and so do I. At some point, the questions I asked anart displeased her. That doesn't make me a distraction. I'm sure I will see you around the forums, and after you witness my opinions on other topics you will see that I in no way intend to be a distraction. See ya' around. :)

 

[Fifth Way]

First of all, I think everybody should be able to have his opinion and yours, Iain'tgoin'tonocamp!, is intersting - to me anyway.

However, I think from what I read so far EQ's views resonate with me the most (like most of the times). Like him I would not judge having a gun per se, while I agree one should not be obsessed with it!

I respect anart's choice not to kill on principle. I felt the same way but that changed after having children. I could imagine situations where I would not hesitate to protect them.

But I believe there is no either/or. Clearly I think there is always a 3rd, 4th or 5th way ;) Isn't the hole point of the work of this community that when the SA knocks at your door, you ain't home?

Isn't the whole idea to be just that lifesaving step ahead of the game.

Personally, getting prepared gives piece of mind but knowledge (in this case knowing the enemy) is what really and ultematly protects.