M
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No matter how y'all judgees and judgers are judged, "just don't y'all shoot no-one and don't y'all be goin' to no camp".
ARE YOU FREE ?
- Thread starter j0da
- Start date
anart
A Disturbance in the Force
I was out for the evening, so I missed the development here - boy, I sure pressed a sore spot there, didn't I? The reaction to this 'pressing' was pretty much what I expected. When presented with reasons for not agreeing with his point of view, 'Iain'tgointonocamp' just continued to debate, as if there is one right way to do anything. Beau, of course, picked up on this dynamic...
I apologize for coming across as judgemental or harsh, I was simply pointing out that 'iain'tgointocamp' had veered from a rational discussion into a mode of "just wait until all this terrible stuff happens to you and then you will see that I'm right' - that was the basis of my 'fear based thinking comment' - i.e., his whole rationale is based in fear, in this hideous scenario that only he will be prepared for because he will use his gun. His responses to not only my post, but the subsequent ones speak for themselves.Beau said:
j0da
Jedi Council Member
First of all, I'd like to express my great gratitude for all the contributions that You, my fellow forumites have so generously made here. I remained silent for a couple of days, I went to take a short vacation to rest from all the wordly events and when I was back - hell, what a ride! A journey - better said. I still find a lot food for thought here in this thread, so I'll probably reread it at least once again. One thing is certain, after reading all comments I'm definately in quite another place that I was before.
Regarding those conflicting viewpoints.. can I say that coming here we all agree to agree and agree to disagree as well? ;) Certainly many who give voice here (especially new ones - me included) learn really fast that "taking nothing personal" (when appropriate) is a preffered way to go. As Cricket pointed out - we try to attack false ideas, misunderstood concepts and faulty considerations rather than persons who express them. Taking such "clarifying" attempts from non-personal stance lets us reconsider our views to see if in the light of new information said views are still valid.
Whole discussion made me to review a lot of "conceptual baggage" and most interestingly hit me right on the spot with issues of anger, violence and fear. I'll try to elaborate on this further, but maybe in another threads.
Cricket - although I didn't define who are "they", because then I only thought about it as a rethoric "flower" (reference to "Bad Boys" movie song), You dissected my underlying subconscious concept perfectly well. When I began scanning for the origin of the concept of "crisis slaughter house" I found...guess what - "War of the Worlds" movie. Yeah, I remember there was some discussion regarding this movie, but obviously I didn't pay an attention. Now I understand, not know, because I've read it, but really understand how subtle and powerfull programming may be executed by means of "supposedly harmless" entertainment. Such programming easily overrided my own experiences of crisis, my own memory of events in Poland during martial state, during the prolonged time of scarcity and oppresion. People weren't actually jumping to each other throaths, they were helping each other as much, as they could.
My question concerned "harming another in self defence". As I said - I will have to contemplate over all comments and the matter itself.
The gun issue. I don't own a gun and I never did. I don't even know how to use it apart from what I've seen in TV. My...let's say rather permissive stance for the right to own a gun had origin in certain concept, which I've encountered here and there.
Some say that armed, ready to fight american public is one of most important reasons, why USA isn't one big concentration camp already. Some say that PTB have to mold the minds of american folks slowly and patiently, working step by step to finally enslave them to the extreme because if they tried to do it in a more fast paced manner they would face massive armed civilian uprising. Only now I see some flaws of linear thinking in this concept, but maybe someone would like to elaborate on this further?
Regarding those conflicting viewpoints.. can I say that coming here we all agree to agree and agree to disagree as well? ;) Certainly many who give voice here (especially new ones - me included) learn really fast that "taking nothing personal" (when appropriate) is a preffered way to go. As Cricket pointed out - we try to attack false ideas, misunderstood concepts and faulty considerations rather than persons who express them. Taking such "clarifying" attempts from non-personal stance lets us reconsider our views to see if in the light of new information said views are still valid.
Whole discussion made me to review a lot of "conceptual baggage" and most interestingly hit me right on the spot with issues of anger, violence and fear. I'll try to elaborate on this further, but maybe in another threads.
Cricket - although I didn't define who are "they", because then I only thought about it as a rethoric "flower" (reference to "Bad Boys" movie song), You dissected my underlying subconscious concept perfectly well. When I began scanning for the origin of the concept of "crisis slaughter house" I found...guess what - "War of the Worlds" movie. Yeah, I remember there was some discussion regarding this movie, but obviously I didn't pay an attention. Now I understand, not know, because I've read it, but really understand how subtle and powerfull programming may be executed by means of "supposedly harmless" entertainment. Such programming easily overrided my own experiences of crisis, my own memory of events in Poland during martial state, during the prolonged time of scarcity and oppresion. People weren't actually jumping to each other throaths, they were helping each other as much, as they could.
My question concerned "harming another in self defence". As I said - I will have to contemplate over all comments and the matter itself.
The gun issue. I don't own a gun and I never did. I don't even know how to use it apart from what I've seen in TV. My...let's say rather permissive stance for the right to own a gun had origin in certain concept, which I've encountered here and there.
Some say that armed, ready to fight american public is one of most important reasons, why USA isn't one big concentration camp already. Some say that PTB have to mold the minds of american folks slowly and patiently, working step by step to finally enslave them to the extreme because if they tried to do it in a more fast paced manner they would face massive armed civilian uprising. Only now I see some flaws of linear thinking in this concept, but maybe someone would like to elaborate on this further?
Well, how things do develop when one is otherwise occupied!
Well, consider this: what if the majority of the populace of Earth are NOT approaching a period of spiritual awakening? What if the real nexus point is a DIVIDING, a separating of the wheat and the chaff? And what if the wheat is defined as those who have not traveled the road of "bodycentrism"?
What if the "control of your spiritual development" is aimed directly at producing this bodycentrism? What if real "spiritual development" is right in your hands at this moment, not at an uncertain, un-guaranteed point in the future when some strange power comes along and "wakes everyone up"?
Your entire objective will then have been defeated.
What if you gave that idea up completely and accepted that your spiritual development is something that you can achieve right NOW? In the immortal words of Kris Kristoffersen:
"Freedom is just another word for nothing left to lose..."
You are so worried about losing your body that you have relegated the fate of your soul to some possibly imaginary and unknown process that is supposed to happen "in time." As the C's have said, "The choice is ALWAYS, it's when you choose that counts." That means that NOW is what is important.
Let's say, theoretically, that despite all your best efforts, you get taken out like, say, the Branch Davidians, who, by the way, were subjected to attack because of a philosophy similar to yours. If you have put your possibility of spiritual awakening off into the future, then that's it. You gambled and lost. The fact is, that is the most likely possibility for anyone following this line of thinking.
But then, what if you do NOT put your spiritual awakening off into the future, what if you take hold of it right now, and LOSE the bodycentrism which is in complete opposition to the concept of spiritual freedom, then there is NOTHING LEFT THAT THEY CAN DO TO YOU.
When you have lost your fear of the death of your body, you have nothing else left to lose. You are FREE.
Is it that you think that this spiritual awakening is a gift that is going to be given to all those who survive some sort of PHYSICAL threat by FIGHTING for the physical?
You see, the REAL work of this level of being is to CHOOSE one's alignment with the material reality or the higher reality, and then to begin the process of discerning and "assimilating" that choice by every action of every day. This is why everything ismasked in symbols. This reality is, in a sense, the landscape of the Quest for the Grail. It is a TEST. Indeed, at every moment one must DO something and it requires faith. And here, I am not speaking of faith in the sense of a belief, such as the belief that you'll get your spiritual graduation if only you survive to 2012 (and does that mean that everyone that dies between now and then will be deprived of this graduation?) but Faith in the REALITY of higher existence... and it requires the individual to essentially step off a cliff at the edge of the Matrix reality into the reality of the REAL.
The spiritual challenge is before you here and now: it is to overcome your fear. You must surmount your fear of abandonment, that you will "miss out on the great awakening" if you don't survive physically. Fear must be transformed into determination, determination to hold the HIGHER view no matter what. And yes, to do that you have to understand that many trials and troubles will come against you to try to shake that determination.... all designed to destroy your faith in your own ability to BE SPIRITUAL NOW and thereby to succeed in living the life that is not materially evident but is only a dream...
In a sense, by believing that "spiritual awakening" is "out there" or "over there" or "in the future", you are being "herded" into a "response camp" of faith in something OUTSIDE of you. If it is possible for you, then it is there NOW.
True FREEDOM seems to boil down to the ability to choose FREELY between at least TWO alternatives, neither of which is WEIGHTED to one side or another in intrinsic terms. That is, there must be NOTHING that compels the chooser to choose one over the other. In fact, it seems to be that the choice is more potent if it is made as an act of deep and pure faith, in opposition to all that is evident in material terms.
Because, certainly, you are setting yourself up for exactly such a scenario by declaring what you will or won't do in advance.
You see, if someone says to you "do or die," and you let this rebel emotion take hold of you, you have forgotten that true freedom is inside of you.
Life is religion. Life experiences reflect how one interacts with God. Those who are asleep are those of little faith in terms of their interaction with the creation. Some people think that the world exists for them to overcome or ignore or shut out. For those individuals, the worlds will cease. They will become exactly what they give to life. They will become merely a dream in the "past." People who pay strict attention to objective reality right and left, become the reality of the "Future."
And if you lock yourself into a single mode, the belief that spiritual awakening will only come if you can manage to "survive," and that in order to survive, you must act against another, or that in any situation, the universe will not provide the way out, and if the way out that the universe provides is death that is "bad," then you are stuck with an obsession. And obsession always brings disaster. That which you fear WILL come upon you.
The first part of your sentence above seems a tad contradictory. First you say you are not in fear, but then you contradict this by expressing the fear that you won't have the time to "evolve spiritually" which then is directed at those you believe can control your spiritual development. You suggest that we are "approaching a period of spiritual awakening" and somebody is trying to keep you from getting there.Iain'tgoin'tonocamp! said:
Well, consider this: what if the majority of the populace of Earth are NOT approaching a period of spiritual awakening? What if the real nexus point is a DIVIDING, a separating of the wheat and the chaff? And what if the wheat is defined as those who have not traveled the road of "bodycentrism"?
What if the "control of your spiritual development" is aimed directly at producing this bodycentrism? What if real "spiritual development" is right in your hands at this moment, not at an uncertain, un-guaranteed point in the future when some strange power comes along and "wakes everyone up"?
Your entire objective will then have been defeated.
Again, you are projecting this achievement into the future when it seems you believe something mysterious will happen from "out there" to enable you to be free "in here."Iain'tgoin'tonocamp! said:
What if you gave that idea up completely and accepted that your spiritual development is something that you can achieve right NOW? In the immortal words of Kris Kristoffersen:
"Freedom is just another word for nothing left to lose..."
You are so worried about losing your body that you have relegated the fate of your soul to some possibly imaginary and unknown process that is supposed to happen "in time." As the C's have said, "The choice is ALWAYS, it's when you choose that counts." That means that NOW is what is important.
Let's say, theoretically, that despite all your best efforts, you get taken out like, say, the Branch Davidians, who, by the way, were subjected to attack because of a philosophy similar to yours. If you have put your possibility of spiritual awakening off into the future, then that's it. You gambled and lost. The fact is, that is the most likely possibility for anyone following this line of thinking.
But then, what if you do NOT put your spiritual awakening off into the future, what if you take hold of it right now, and LOSE the bodycentrism which is in complete opposition to the concept of spiritual freedom, then there is NOTHING LEFT THAT THEY CAN DO TO YOU.
When you have lost your fear of the death of your body, you have nothing else left to lose. You are FREE.
Yet above, you are stating that the world is approaching a "spiritual awakening." Which is it? It can't be both.Iain'tgoin'tonocamp! said:
Is it that you think that this spiritual awakening is a gift that is going to be given to all those who survive some sort of PHYSICAL threat by FIGHTING for the physical?
You see, the REAL work of this level of being is to CHOOSE one's alignment with the material reality or the higher reality, and then to begin the process of discerning and "assimilating" that choice by every action of every day. This is why everything ismasked in symbols. This reality is, in a sense, the landscape of the Quest for the Grail. It is a TEST. Indeed, at every moment one must DO something and it requires faith. And here, I am not speaking of faith in the sense of a belief, such as the belief that you'll get your spiritual graduation if only you survive to 2012 (and does that mean that everyone that dies between now and then will be deprived of this graduation?) but Faith in the REALITY of higher existence... and it requires the individual to essentially step off a cliff at the edge of the Matrix reality into the reality of the REAL.
The spiritual challenge is before you here and now: it is to overcome your fear. You must surmount your fear of abandonment, that you will "miss out on the great awakening" if you don't survive physically. Fear must be transformed into determination, determination to hold the HIGHER view no matter what. And yes, to do that you have to understand that many trials and troubles will come against you to try to shake that determination.... all designed to destroy your faith in your own ability to BE SPIRITUAL NOW and thereby to succeed in living the life that is not materially evident but is only a dream...
In a sense, by believing that "spiritual awakening" is "out there" or "over there" or "in the future", you are being "herded" into a "response camp" of faith in something OUTSIDE of you. If it is possible for you, then it is there NOW.
True FREEDOM seems to boil down to the ability to choose FREELY between at least TWO alternatives, neither of which is WEIGHTED to one side or another in intrinsic terms. That is, there must be NOTHING that compels the chooser to choose one over the other. In fact, it seems to be that the choice is more potent if it is made as an act of deep and pure faith, in opposition to all that is evident in material terms.
So, in an emotional state already, due to the situation with your "one and only," you read something that gave you the perfect "out"? All your problems will be solved by this "event" of great import. Not only will everyone who ever was bad to you get theirs, (so it is easy to forgive them... not important anymore, right?) but if YOU are clever and act quickly, you just might end up on top of all those who have oppressed and suppressed you? Am I close here? Don't react emotionally, take a deep breath and think about it. In fact, think about it for a few days before you answer...Iain'tgoin'tonocamp! said:
Did you ever wonder what you might do if someone is holding a knife to the throat of the one you love most in the world, and they tell you that, in order to save your loved one, you must think, act, behave, do all kinds of things against your so-called principles, and what's more, they'll tell you when and how to do it?Iain'tgoin'tonocamp! said:
Because, certainly, you are setting yourself up for exactly such a scenario by declaring what you will or won't do in advance.
You see, if someone says to you "do or die," and you let this rebel emotion take hold of you, you have forgotten that true freedom is inside of you.
But you are not free at all. You are a prisoner of that gun. You don't have any real faith in your inner freedom or in the higher world at all... your choices are weighted, manipulated, chosen for you by someone else who is playing games with your head to convince you that freedom is the freedom of the body to continue to exist...Iain'tgoin'tonocamp! said:
And in that "just in case," you have stated that you do not have faith in the REAL. You have denied it in advance.Iain'tgoin'tonocamp! said:
Life is religion. Life experiences reflect how one interacts with God. Those who are asleep are those of little faith in terms of their interaction with the creation. Some people think that the world exists for them to overcome or ignore or shut out. For those individuals, the worlds will cease. They will become exactly what they give to life. They will become merely a dream in the "past." People who pay strict attention to objective reality right and left, become the reality of the "Future."
The Man of Faith integrates the best of the pragmatic and realistic views and adds a third dimension: faith - an openness and trusting attitude to truth and reality, whatever it may turn out to be. Being practical, he functions within the world system; being realistic, he perceives the dangers, and acts in whatever way he can to ameliorate the suffering he sees, and he is open to learn, to change his perspective, to live in a "risky and adventurous state of mind. This means that, acting in faith, sure of purpose in life, he strives to attain the conditions necessary for understanding truth. He searches diligently, often finding himself obligated to give up what he formerly held as true in order to receive deeper truth; hoping to find the meaning of "salvation" in literal terms - and himself a recipient of same in whatever context it finally manifests.Alan Watts said:
And if you lock yourself into a single mode, the belief that spiritual awakening will only come if you can manage to "survive," and that in order to survive, you must act against another, or that in any situation, the universe will not provide the way out, and if the way out that the universe provides is death that is "bad," then you are stuck with an obsession. And obsession always brings disaster. That which you fear WILL come upon you.
C
Cricket
Guest
EsoQuest, Nina, Ann have been telling you over and over again what the
problem is about: It is not your gun.
point entirely.
and over again. This is why Ann got tired of you, because you just dont get
what she, Nina, EsoQuest and all been explaining, and NOT because of the
reasons you get to grasp.
that you do not belive what is being discussedm, and not because no one
pampered you and your views.
Yet, you say Ann's post is nonsence. Well, think it twice man. She, and the
rest, has been trying to GUIDE you towards the ways to get rid of that
jarhead with an AR-15 pointed in your face. You totally underestimate Ann
(and the rest of the presittions you have been having since the beguining).
So you think youre such a hot-shot, ah?
You have lost not only all cedibility with me, but also my respect. You have
the guts to explain (hehe) to Ann that her acctitude towards you changed
AFTER you pointed her tat her ability to express how she feels will soon be
taken away without her consent.
It was not at that point. It was when she realized how useless it is to
discuss with you (and trust me, she has a LOT of patience! -oh but you know
this, you have been reading her posts so perhaps you are aware youre bitting
here something you cannot swallow pal).
I assure you: I dont think there is a way on earth for Ann to loose her
ability to express her self, so don't you worry your little self about her.
And this is far more than what can be said about you, who cannot see where
the problem is:
from the Signs page.
It is to that that you need a gun.
Now dont despair, not all is lost: You have been pointed towards POWERFUL
SOLUTIONS and, if you appologize to Ann, I might hear again what you have to
say and she might even elaborate a few pearls for you.
But youre already in 2012: YouAin'tgoin'tonocamp man. You'reAlreadyInOne!
The problem is not you or your gun. The problem is the Constrol System has
infected the minds of many to think violence is a practical solution because
they think they find their selfs without any other option (EsoQuest posts
explain this to the detail, if you care).
The problem is, precisely, that other option, to the which you have
absolutelly nothing to colaborate with.... YET.
The problem is the Social Atmosphere reproduces reaction machines, and you
are an example to that.
The problem is just like j0da expressed it: "How can we solve this dillema?",
and not that jarhead with an AR-15 who has kidnpped your mind.
You have been reading material that has not been making you any good. It is
stated what Laura writes is for those who are ready to awake, and you are not
ready. You need to grow and learn to appreciate others far more knowledgable
than your self. You need to learn to listen.
Now go and find that word on your dictionary and come and explain it to us in your simplistic fashion please.
You need to learn to be free. Yes: You are not free. You think you are, but
you ain't. So, theres nothing in real to defend.
Not if you don't MAKE it.
You are not ready and, curiously, the way to be ready is to accept that you
are not ready. Curious, ah? If you achieve that, you will then understand your reasoning is a fallacy when you say "I don't believe violence in the name of protecting oneself establishes karmic debt, I believe the hate, rage and maliciousness required to be the aggressor has plenty of it".
You dont understand what Ann has been telling you, and you say her post was "utter nonsense" -rediculous.
Appologize with her. Explain we all commit mistakes, and particulary yourself. Then if youre curious and if she can skip your irreverences, ask her to elaborate further for you, and if you listen (this in an ideal situation, mind you), you might learn LOTS about your self.
And explain me this one you said:
After that, from my part youre welcome.
Actually, dont reply to me. Concentrate on Laura's.
problem is about: It is not your gun.
And most particulary, Ann's:knowledge_of_self said:
But you dont get it. You think Ann called you "Butch Cassidy", missing theanart said:
point entirely.
Indeed you cannot see it, although it has been explined to you over and overIain'tgoin'tonocamp! said:
and over again. This is why Ann got tired of you, because you just dont get
what she, Nina, EsoQuest and all been explaining, and NOT because of the
reasons you get to grasp.
This is why you should abandon the discussion. This would be a valid reason,Iain'tgoin'tonocamp! said:
that you do not belive what is being discussedm, and not because no one
pampered you and your views.
Yet, you say Ann's post is nonsence. Well, think it twice man. She, and the
rest, has been trying to GUIDE you towards the ways to get rid of that
jarhead with an AR-15 pointed in your face. You totally underestimate Ann
(and the rest of the presittions you have been having since the beguining).
So you think youre such a hot-shot, ah?
You have lost not only all cedibility with me, but also my respect. You have
the guts to explain (hehe) to Ann that her acctitude towards you changed
AFTER you pointed her tat her ability to express how she feels will soon be
taken away without her consent.
It was not at that point. It was when she realized how useless it is to
discuss with you (and trust me, she has a LOT of patience! -oh but you know
this, you have been reading her posts so perhaps you are aware youre bitting
here something you cannot swallow pal).
I assure you: I dont think there is a way on earth for Ann to loose her
ability to express her self, so don't you worry your little self about her.
And this is far more than what can be said about you, who cannot see where
the problem is:
Thats right. The future you see, is in your past. It comes from there, notIain'tgoin'tonocamp! said:
from the Signs page.
It is to that that you need a gun.
Now dont despair, not all is lost: You have been pointed towards POWERFUL
SOLUTIONS and, if you appologize to Ann, I might hear again what you have to
say and she might even elaborate a few pearls for you.
But youre already in 2012: YouAin'tgoin'tonocamp man. You'reAlreadyInOne!
The problem is not you or your gun. The problem is the Constrol System has
infected the minds of many to think violence is a practical solution because
they think they find their selfs without any other option (EsoQuest posts
explain this to the detail, if you care).
The problem is, precisely, that other option, to the which you have
absolutelly nothing to colaborate with.... YET.
The problem is the Social Atmosphere reproduces reaction machines, and you
are an example to that.
The problem is just like j0da expressed it: "How can we solve this dillema?",
and not that jarhead with an AR-15 who has kidnpped your mind.
Are you shure of that pal? Think it twice!Iain'tgoin'tonocamp! said:
You have been reading material that has not been making you any good. It is
stated what Laura writes is for those who are ready to awake, and you are not
ready. You need to grow and learn to appreciate others far more knowledgable
than your self. You need to learn to listen.
Now go and find that word on your dictionary and come and explain it to us in your simplistic fashion please.
You need to learn to be free. Yes: You are not free. You think you are, but
you ain't. So, theres nothing in real to defend.
Not if you don't MAKE it.
You are not ready and, curiously, the way to be ready is to accept that you
are not ready. Curious, ah? If you achieve that, you will then understand your reasoning is a fallacy when you say "I don't believe violence in the name of protecting oneself establishes karmic debt, I believe the hate, rage and maliciousness required to be the aggressor has plenty of it".
You dont understand what Ann has been telling you, and you say her post was "utter nonsense" -rediculous.
Appologize with her. Explain we all commit mistakes, and particulary yourself. Then if youre curious and if she can skip your irreverences, ask her to elaborate further for you, and if you listen (this in an ideal situation, mind you), you might learn LOTS about your self.
And explain me this one you said:
Whats wrong with this forum? Not enough for you.... or too much?Iain'tgoin'tonocamp! said:
After that, from my part youre welcome.
Actually, dont reply to me. Concentrate on Laura's.
G
Guest
Guest
From what I have observed on the SOTT forum, those contributing (aside from misinformers and psychopaths) have good instincts in detecting characteropathic/psychopathic or otherwise insincere others here, and these are usually called on the carpet. Not that the forum is a panel of judges, but discussion becomes pointless with purposely disruptive individuals.
This is NOT the case here. This particular discussion is a very heated one because the issue involves violence, survival, freedom and other topics that unavoidably touch us deeply, as they should. It gets even hotter because apparently polarized viewpoints are presented. Psychologists call it cognitive dissonance: the mental discomfort that comes from being confronted by two fundamentally opposed propositions. The discomfort increases because each viewpoint has its own implications for the other side, and these are not pleasant.
Please remember Iain'tgoin'tonocamp! that disagreement with one's views is not the same as undermining one's own person. Ann stated that you have lost all credibility for her. So what? What does that have to do with who you are? None of us, IMO, are under any obligation to consider anyone else credible if we find we cannot relate to them. You are under the conviction that the "heat" will turn up in this world. How will you be able to function in that heat if you are insulted by people refusing (even passionately so) to agree with you? This is, after all, a passionate topic for many people, and as jOda correctly stated, a true "gordian knot" of an issue.
You may feel offended, but even as this has happened you must understand that the idea of holding a gun and shooting people for whatever reason IS offensive to many others. On the other hand, I do not believe that the idea of being non-violent no matter what is offensive to you (even though you might consider it unrealistic), so it might be hard to understand their reactions at first because they do not correspond to yours.
Please understand that your complete expressed willingness to kill (regardless of issues of justification) causes extreme inner discomfort in some people. Exercising such understanding is exercising your empathy. You may very well be a compassionate person, but in this particular case your empathic potential has been set aside, or you would not be so offended.
In addition, I would like to say that being afraid in the face of the nightmare probabilities the PTB is thrusting upon us is a SANE reaction. I feel fear at the very idea of being defenseless in front of those presentations of hell. And the way you write I am confident that you feel fear at the idea of being defenseless. So I repeat: Being afraid in the face of psychopathy is a sane reaction. I would be worried if anyone wasn't.
What differs among all our view-points here is the TYPE of solution we each believe is best and most realistic, and the PRIORITIZATION we have regarding what must be addressed for the best outcome regarding the PTB's presentations. In any case, admitting to fear under the circumstances is admitting to sanity. Fear does not mean panic or paranoia here, just a serious degree of concern.
And many of us are opinionated, especially me. We have strong opinions, and when opposing opinions come along we certainly cannot just drop everything we hold true and accept them. This may be called a kind of judgment, but what it amounts to is a refusal to compromise our hard-earned views unless there is a damned good reason to do so. That is why we discuss, test and ponder.
Hot topics are not called hot for nothing. And getting steamed up during such discussion is natural when certain buttons are pushed. Learning comes in when we are called to understand what is going on and gain perspective so we do not become consumed by the heat of the argument and miss something of value going on.
Other pumped up wimps might work out because they consider violence as inevitable, in other words, they believe the energies of violence call the shots and set the rules. A spiritually minded warrior, to remove the "wimp" term, will realize that the REAL goal is to gain power over violence itself as a principle so they are never in a position to even be tempted to use it.
Ann was presenting the principle of karma, in my view, in the sense that ANY event in which you are forced to participate is because you have a karmic tie with that event. Break that knot and you are free of the undesirable event. Transcend violence, and the bad boys will not come to your door, and if they do (as 5th Way mentioned) you will not be home.
So it is best not to see violence as an establisher of karmic dept, but as a result of it. And in that sense, the most practical thing would be to elliminate that dept BEFORE the collection agency comes a calling.
While the US and the current organization of society may be reaching crisis (and nobody can really say what this crisis WILL entail with absolute conviction, not even the PTB trying to control it), the UNIVERSE is still a place of growth and creativity, and aligning with THAT one becomes more a citizen of the Universe and subject to its ways and NOT a pawn of the ways of psychopaths no matter how they swagger. IMO, that is the whole point of spiritual orientation (which I do not personally believe necessitates a rejection of the physical in favour of the non-physical, rather a new balance between the two).
So really, the whole point of having a gun, and taking inner evolution seriously, is reaching a stage where you realize that you do not need it. If you cannot see that possibility AT ALL, then you might consider it is not you who owns the gun, but that the gun owns you.
Another thing I think is worth re-evaluating is the whole 2012 thing. This is, you know, a mythic "end date" promoted by an ancient elite (a form of PTB) of one particular culture. Although many cultures have calendars, some of them quite advanced, NONE present this or any particular end date, to my knowledge. The modern popularization of this date is a product of the pro-Mayan new age movement. The date has really no true astronomical significance, and is rather arbitrary. The following thread is revealing here:
http://www.cassiopaea.org/forum/index.php?topic=721
So 2012 will come, and 2012 will pass, and many people will end up scratching their heads. Already, a lot of proponents of the date are saying that it is just a beginning of a more gradual shift. I guess doubts are already beginning to sprout.
In short, we live in an insecure world like children realized their parents cannot protect them, and that there is no caretaker to give us guarantees. And as we mature, we can reach a point where we do not NEED external guarantees, and that having such dependencies can actually lead us along entropic paths. So it is worthwhile considering Alan Watt's view and what Laura said:
This is NOT the case here. This particular discussion is a very heated one because the issue involves violence, survival, freedom and other topics that unavoidably touch us deeply, as they should. It gets even hotter because apparently polarized viewpoints are presented. Psychologists call it cognitive dissonance: the mental discomfort that comes from being confronted by two fundamentally opposed propositions. The discomfort increases because each viewpoint has its own implications for the other side, and these are not pleasant.
Please remember Iain'tgoin'tonocamp! that disagreement with one's views is not the same as undermining one's own person. Ann stated that you have lost all credibility for her. So what? What does that have to do with who you are? None of us, IMO, are under any obligation to consider anyone else credible if we find we cannot relate to them. You are under the conviction that the "heat" will turn up in this world. How will you be able to function in that heat if you are insulted by people refusing (even passionately so) to agree with you? This is, after all, a passionate topic for many people, and as jOda correctly stated, a true "gordian knot" of an issue.
You may feel offended, but even as this has happened you must understand that the idea of holding a gun and shooting people for whatever reason IS offensive to many others. On the other hand, I do not believe that the idea of being non-violent no matter what is offensive to you (even though you might consider it unrealistic), so it might be hard to understand their reactions at first because they do not correspond to yours.
Please understand that your complete expressed willingness to kill (regardless of issues of justification) causes extreme inner discomfort in some people. Exercising such understanding is exercising your empathy. You may very well be a compassionate person, but in this particular case your empathic potential has been set aside, or you would not be so offended.
In addition, I would like to say that being afraid in the face of the nightmare probabilities the PTB is thrusting upon us is a SANE reaction. I feel fear at the very idea of being defenseless in front of those presentations of hell. And the way you write I am confident that you feel fear at the idea of being defenseless. So I repeat: Being afraid in the face of psychopathy is a sane reaction. I would be worried if anyone wasn't.
What differs among all our view-points here is the TYPE of solution we each believe is best and most realistic, and the PRIORITIZATION we have regarding what must be addressed for the best outcome regarding the PTB's presentations. In any case, admitting to fear under the circumstances is admitting to sanity. Fear does not mean panic or paranoia here, just a serious degree of concern.
And many of us are opinionated, especially me. We have strong opinions, and when opposing opinions come along we certainly cannot just drop everything we hold true and accept them. This may be called a kind of judgment, but what it amounts to is a refusal to compromise our hard-earned views unless there is a damned good reason to do so. That is why we discuss, test and ponder.
Hot topics are not called hot for nothing. And getting steamed up during such discussion is natural when certain buttons are pushed. Learning comes in when we are called to understand what is going on and gain perspective so we do not become consumed by the heat of the argument and miss something of value going on.
I understand your conviction Cricket. Demanding apologies, however, from someone who is feeling like his deepest beliefs are being attacked, and who feels others are demanding he lie down and be trampled by terrifying forces, will probably alienate this person even more from considering alternatives. I am sure he was a bit surprized that views he considers common sense have created such a reaction, so it is probably a lot to chew right now.Cricket said:
We have a point of contact then, so I can elaborate a bit on the analogy. In fact, let me extend it to martial arts mastery. A true martial arts master will tell you that you have successfully learned the art when you never have to use your skills. If you learn the martial arts and expect to use them, you have failed. If the former wimp expects a fight, he will get it. If he completely denies the violence around him, it will also find him. The wimp pumps himself up because he is seeking the right relationship to threatening probabilities, so he and they will not encounter each other.Iain'tgoin'tonocamp! said:
Other pumped up wimps might work out because they consider violence as inevitable, in other words, they believe the energies of violence call the shots and set the rules. A spiritually minded warrior, to remove the "wimp" term, will realize that the REAL goal is to gain power over violence itself as a principle so they are never in a position to even be tempted to use it.
Spiritual knowledge is a sort of survival skill, but has nothing to do with inevitably confronting the undesireable, and not even avoiding it or running away. It has to do with transcending it. This may not be easy to understand, and if it was, spiritual growth and the discussions that foster it would be moot.Iain'tgoin'tonocamp! said:
Ann was presenting the principle of karma, in my view, in the sense that ANY event in which you are forced to participate is because you have a karmic tie with that event. Break that knot and you are free of the undesirable event. Transcend violence, and the bad boys will not come to your door, and if they do (as 5th Way mentioned) you will not be home.
So it is best not to see violence as an establisher of karmic dept, but as a result of it. And in that sense, the most practical thing would be to elliminate that dept BEFORE the collection agency comes a calling.
I had a friend in college, who always kept asking me what I would do in worst case scenarios. Whenever he saw me pondering some choice, he presented the worst case in a constancy of "what if, what if....yes, but what if?". Finally, I asked him what the hell his problem was. He told me that by always considering the worst he was always prepared and never surprised by it. And that's all he was: Always on guard duty and his eye on the enemy, and never feeling that life had more to offer that could relieve him of his shackles to the looming Damocledian sword of doom. And so, he was never free.Iain'tgoin'tonocamp! said:
While the US and the current organization of society may be reaching crisis (and nobody can really say what this crisis WILL entail with absolute conviction, not even the PTB trying to control it), the UNIVERSE is still a place of growth and creativity, and aligning with THAT one becomes more a citizen of the Universe and subject to its ways and NOT a pawn of the ways of psychopaths no matter how they swagger. IMO, that is the whole point of spiritual orientation (which I do not personally believe necessitates a rejection of the physical in favour of the non-physical, rather a new balance between the two).
So really, the whole point of having a gun, and taking inner evolution seriously, is reaching a stage where you realize that you do not need it. If you cannot see that possibility AT ALL, then you might consider it is not you who owns the gun, but that the gun owns you.
Another thing I think is worth re-evaluating is the whole 2012 thing. This is, you know, a mythic "end date" promoted by an ancient elite (a form of PTB) of one particular culture. Although many cultures have calendars, some of them quite advanced, NONE present this or any particular end date, to my knowledge. The modern popularization of this date is a product of the pro-Mayan new age movement. The date has really no true astronomical significance, and is rather arbitrary. The following thread is revealing here:
http://www.cassiopaea.org/forum/index.php?topic=721
So 2012 will come, and 2012 will pass, and many people will end up scratching their heads. Already, a lot of proponents of the date are saying that it is just a beginning of a more gradual shift. I guess doubts are already beginning to sprout.
In short, we live in an insecure world like children realized their parents cannot protect them, and that there is no caretaker to give us guarantees. And as we mature, we can reach a point where we do not NEED external guarantees, and that having such dependencies can actually lead us along entropic paths. So it is worthwhile considering Alan Watt's view and what Laura said:
Take the risk, and dare to consider other options than the imposed "inevitable". Live the adventure, and hear the true call to freedom.
Fifth Way
Jedi Council Member
Not that there is much to add here.
But I do have a little insight to share in regards to the martial arts analogy that EsoQuest used.
Samurai knew that if they would be faced with a fight one of the two opponents would loose his live within a few seconds, no way around it. So therefore the ultimate aim was to not have fight at all.
What I learned in Kendo (which derives from Samurai sword fighting) is that the only way to have a chance to win such fight is to have a total non-aggressive attitude.
Kendo is a martial art which' essence is the counterattack!
In a nutshell: Only if your mind is at total peace - only if your mind is "empty" you will be able to "sense" your opponents impending attack. That very moment he decides on it, your mind can pick that up and can perform a counterattack even before your opponent is able to execute his own. And as he is busy with executing his action, there is no way for him to react to yours.
If you are in attack mode (rage, fear, anger - whatever) you will not be able to see (sense) it coming. Therefore you will ALLWAYS be at a disadvantage.
Now your "counterattack" Iain'tgoin'tonocamp!, does not has to be of aggressive nature. As mentioned previously it could just be being "not available".
Anyway, only an "empty" mind will help you see it coming.
Maybe instead of getting a gun, picking up some martial arts may be a really good alternative for you, Iain'tgoin'tonocamp!, especially in your age. Why don't you look into Aikido? http://www.aikidoonline.com/
But I do have a little insight to share in regards to the martial arts analogy that EsoQuest used.
Samurai knew that if they would be faced with a fight one of the two opponents would loose his live within a few seconds, no way around it. So therefore the ultimate aim was to not have fight at all.
What I learned in Kendo (which derives from Samurai sword fighting) is that the only way to have a chance to win such fight is to have a total non-aggressive attitude.
Kendo is a martial art which' essence is the counterattack!
In a nutshell: Only if your mind is at total peace - only if your mind is "empty" you will be able to "sense" your opponents impending attack. That very moment he decides on it, your mind can pick that up and can perform a counterattack even before your opponent is able to execute his own. And as he is busy with executing his action, there is no way for him to react to yours.
If you are in attack mode (rage, fear, anger - whatever) you will not be able to see (sense) it coming. Therefore you will ALLWAYS be at a disadvantage.
Now your "counterattack" Iain'tgoin'tonocamp!, does not has to be of aggressive nature. As mentioned previously it could just be being "not available".
Anyway, only an "empty" mind will help you see it coming.
Maybe instead of getting a gun, picking up some martial arts may be a really good alternative for you, Iain'tgoin'tonocamp!, especially in your age. Why don't you look into Aikido? http://www.aikidoonline.com/
Cyre2067
The Living Force
Ooo i love it when threads get all juicy like this one.
Lemme open with no one here is bashing anyone else. We dont bash, we just give our honest opinions, sometimes bluntly and sometimes those opinions are diametrically opposed. It's all in the spirit of interaction.
Having a gun is great. My dad has 4 handguns, and two diff rifles. If i would have to use one to defend myself, my family, property/food source (we have a garden/chicken's/well) i would do it. I am also 23, which i found synchronius with Iain't's age, thus worthy of mention. I would prefer not to kill anyone, but if is it my fate to do so i will accept that.
My fate might also be to get black-bagged, drug off to a concentration camp, and locked up there indefinately because of my postings here and other places on the internet. My ideological dissonance from the PTBs is well documented, and if they bust in my house in an attempt to "get me" then i would let them do so. A gunfight would only likely result in the same outcome (im taken or killed) however if i resist my family might suffer the same fate. As i would use a gun to defend my family so would i not use a gun. If that doesn't make sense i suggest you re-evaluate your reasons for using a gun (to me it seemed to prolong life, in this case no fighting is the best way to prolong life, of all involved). If i lived alone, in a fortified location and they tried to get me, sure I'd have a great time with a gunfight, but i don't see this is "my fate" nor would i want to make it so.
With all that said I've come to believe in a power greater then that of conventional weaponry. Much as is insinuated in the matrix in the lines:
Neo: What are you trying to tell me? That I can dodge bullets?
Morpheus: No, Neo. I'm trying to tell you that when you're ready, you won't have to
I believe when we are ready - we won't need guns, nor worry about the threat they pose; tanks, missiles, sonic weapons, chemical weapons - these are all 3D technological devices, when one is 4D or experiencing significant breakthrough they won't function the same or our new abilities will be far superior. To arrive at that point is one of the core goals of the work, at least for myself. Therefore, worrying about "what if's" of chaos and self-defense is not necessary as it is not in the now. To be in the moment is of key importance to the work, and if you're incessantly planning you "miss" what you are meant to see and hear, here and now.
As major change is ahead we cannot plan for it without the experiences (context) it provides. It's much like planning a party without knowing where or when it's going to be, nor who's coming. It's a crude analogy but it make my point. So in conclusion, do what you feel you need to do to be comfortable in the present, thus freeing you from future concerns and giving you the ability to focus on now with utmost clarity.
Lemme open with no one here is bashing anyone else. We dont bash, we just give our honest opinions, sometimes bluntly and sometimes those opinions are diametrically opposed. It's all in the spirit of interaction.
Having a gun is great. My dad has 4 handguns, and two diff rifles. If i would have to use one to defend myself, my family, property/food source (we have a garden/chicken's/well) i would do it. I am also 23, which i found synchronius with Iain't's age, thus worthy of mention. I would prefer not to kill anyone, but if is it my fate to do so i will accept that.
My fate might also be to get black-bagged, drug off to a concentration camp, and locked up there indefinately because of my postings here and other places on the internet. My ideological dissonance from the PTBs is well documented, and if they bust in my house in an attempt to "get me" then i would let them do so. A gunfight would only likely result in the same outcome (im taken or killed) however if i resist my family might suffer the same fate. As i would use a gun to defend my family so would i not use a gun. If that doesn't make sense i suggest you re-evaluate your reasons for using a gun (to me it seemed to prolong life, in this case no fighting is the best way to prolong life, of all involved). If i lived alone, in a fortified location and they tried to get me, sure I'd have a great time with a gunfight, but i don't see this is "my fate" nor would i want to make it so.
With all that said I've come to believe in a power greater then that of conventional weaponry. Much as is insinuated in the matrix in the lines:
Neo: What are you trying to tell me? That I can dodge bullets?
Morpheus: No, Neo. I'm trying to tell you that when you're ready, you won't have to
I believe when we are ready - we won't need guns, nor worry about the threat they pose; tanks, missiles, sonic weapons, chemical weapons - these are all 3D technological devices, when one is 4D or experiencing significant breakthrough they won't function the same or our new abilities will be far superior. To arrive at that point is one of the core goals of the work, at least for myself. Therefore, worrying about "what if's" of chaos and self-defense is not necessary as it is not in the now. To be in the moment is of key importance to the work, and if you're incessantly planning you "miss" what you are meant to see and hear, here and now.
As major change is ahead we cannot plan for it without the experiences (context) it provides. It's much like planning a party without knowing where or when it's going to be, nor who's coming. It's a crude analogy but it make my point. So in conclusion, do what you feel you need to do to be comfortable in the present, thus freeing you from future concerns and giving you the ability to focus on now with utmost clarity.
I
Iain'tgoin'tonocamp!
Guest
...wow... This was quite a journey, I must say. Am I full of fear? I don't feel like I am. That doesn't necessarily mean that I don't have it, though. We all know that fear can express itself in different ways. I suppose owning a weapon in some way is connected to fear, but what if the weapon was acquired to allow someone the peace of mind needed to achieve transcendence? Is that possible? I am soon to find out. The reason I forgave my family members for their mistakes was not necessarily because I think they will all be dead soon, but rather it was the realization, brought about by my now greater understanding of our world, who controls it and where it's headed, that everyone makes mistakes, you either make big ones or small ones. My father made big ones, and I hated him for it, not anymore. I realized that he is in such fear (right-wing bigot) that my hatred for him, which he knew quite well, didn't serve any purpose but to further his descent into a darker and colder place. Not only that, but the feelings of injustice I felt on a daily basis drove me to drug abuse and cut my fuse to about half an inch. The 'gun' issue... I believe we've been to focused on that item, when my main focus with this thread should've been merely the issue of self-defense, that is the end which I seek, the gun is merely the means I thought most practical. Would I rather *poof* into a 4th dimensional being? Hell yeah, just tell me where to sign. But unlike some other people in this forum, I am just starting out, I haven't even begun to scratch the surface of the knowledge and practices required to make it to that point. Where do I begin? How do I begin? How do I transcend when nearly every single moment of every single day is a reminder that pretty much everyone I love and even beyond that to just about everyone I know and see has their head in the ground? I don't like pain, do you? Some will say it is necessary for growth (no pain, no gain), and I see that. Is it cuh-razy for me to say that having some ability to defend myself is a prerequisite for the peace of mind needed to eventually transcend the idea of 'self-defense' itself? I don't think so, I believe it is possible to take a weapon in one hand and a tome in the other and with time drop the weapon for yet another tome. So, I have the gun in one hand... any suggestions as to which tome I should place in the other? :)
Echoing what EQ wrote, I will tell all of you that the state of the world could, if I let it, scare the pure livin' bejeebies out of me. And it's millions of times worse because I have children! I've said it before and I'll say it again: the only reason I do what I do is because, right or wrong, I HAVE to work for something positive to happen on this planet because I LOVE my children. All kinds of people say horrible things about me, about my approach, my method, my choices. In the end, when I am all alone and I have to face my conscience, the answer is always the same: I have to do what I see is correct based on the best available evidence which I can uncover with my own blood, sweat and tears, and the help of others with the same objective.
I would dearly LOVE to believe that we can just sit back and believe in fairy tales and all will turn out right in the end. But hard work digging up the facts says that just isn't so.
I've studied all the groups that hunkered down and resisted or fought back. NONE of them survived. Always and ever, the result was that even if a few survived, if their ideas and ideals survived, they were taken over and "ponerized" just as Lobaczewski describes it.
This is a BIG problem that we have been considering for some time.
After all, if even the Jesus movement of social experimentation and equity was so easily coopted, what chance does any other movement for global peace have? If the statistically small deviant elements in our society can act so negatively and destructively on the rest, just like a particularly virulentl bacteria can act on a living being, what, exactly, are we supposed to do?
Obviously, if we sit back and allow the contagion to spread, or if we don't utilize some sort of "psycho-social" intervention, total destruction will be the result. And here I mean total destruction for all, INCLUDING the deviant element.
But they don't know that. That is part of their nature, that they cannot know that. I know that they can't know it, so what is my responsibility? In a sense, it's almost like the responsibility for a child that doesn't know that running across the street without looking has a very high chance of leading to death; or like an animal for whom I might be responsible that doesn't know that fighting with a rabid coon is a no win situation... or other examples.
So what is the responsibility of those that can see?
And certainly, it seems that part of that responsibility is to be able to survive so as to help the greatest number of people possible. Heck, that's why we are here and not there... We'd have been taken out long ago if we hadn't left. But not everybody can leave!
My choice at the moment is to convert fear to determination to find solutions as long as I am able.
I would dearly LOVE to believe that we can just sit back and believe in fairy tales and all will turn out right in the end. But hard work digging up the facts says that just isn't so.
I've studied all the groups that hunkered down and resisted or fought back. NONE of them survived. Always and ever, the result was that even if a few survived, if their ideas and ideals survived, they were taken over and "ponerized" just as Lobaczewski describes it.
This is a BIG problem that we have been considering for some time.
After all, if even the Jesus movement of social experimentation and equity was so easily coopted, what chance does any other movement for global peace have? If the statistically small deviant elements in our society can act so negatively and destructively on the rest, just like a particularly virulentl bacteria can act on a living being, what, exactly, are we supposed to do?
Obviously, if we sit back and allow the contagion to spread, or if we don't utilize some sort of "psycho-social" intervention, total destruction will be the result. And here I mean total destruction for all, INCLUDING the deviant element.
But they don't know that. That is part of their nature, that they cannot know that. I know that they can't know it, so what is my responsibility? In a sense, it's almost like the responsibility for a child that doesn't know that running across the street without looking has a very high chance of leading to death; or like an animal for whom I might be responsible that doesn't know that fighting with a rabid coon is a no win situation... or other examples.
So what is the responsibility of those that can see?
And certainly, it seems that part of that responsibility is to be able to survive so as to help the greatest number of people possible. Heck, that's why we are here and not there... We'd have been taken out long ago if we hadn't left. But not everybody can leave!
My choice at the moment is to convert fear to determination to find solutions as long as I am able.
It appears to me that Iain'tgoin'tonocamp's paranoia is going to bring to him that very thing that he fears the most. "I-aint-going-to-no-camp" means "I-am-positive-that-I-going-to-camp-and,- damn it,-I've-already-decided-that-I-ain't-going."Iain'tgoin'tonocamp! said:
Basically, for Iain'tgoin'tonocamp, this event has already happened, and if it should actually happen, then he is "positive" it will happen TO HIM. In that case, if it already has happened to him then its gotta happen only because it already happened! That's why he likes guns. He already decided that this is what will happen TO HIM with "positive certainty." If it will happen then it already has happened. So Iain'tgoin'tonocamp ain't got no choice. In his paranoia he has already backed himself against the wall and he sees no way out. He is hypnotized. His eyes are "wide shut" leaving no other possibilities as to what the outcome shall be.
Basically if a polished fighter has his eyes "open" then he can see the signs around him and avoid those forces who wish to plot against his well being. He can "see" and take steps to avoid these things. He may take calculated risks but his security is limited and threatened only to the extent to which he cannot see. The better he sees then the safer he is, because he will see it coming even before the attack arrives rather then (as in Iain'tgoin'tonocamp's case) where he has already arrived even before he sees the attack coming.
I
Iain'tgoin'tonocamp!
Guest
My title is simply an expression of my not wanting to be enslaved, I am trying my best to learn what needs to be learned so that I will not be enslaved, instead of patting yourself on the back with your assumptions and psychoanalysis, why not offer up some suggestions as to how and where I can acquire the knowledge needed to reach a level of understanding as high as yours. Thanks.
Cyre2067
The Living Force
Off the top of my head i'd reccomend these things:
Political Ponerology - A MUST
http://www.cassiopaea.org/cass/political_ponerology_lobaczewski.htm
The Online version of the wave - another must.
http://www.cassiopaea.org/cass/waveindex.htm (keep clicking through it, multiple pages)
And this is the thread on organic portals, for after you get through the above:
http://www.cassiopaea.org/forum/index.php?topic=457
And if you're interested in 9-11 (its a biggie for me personally) then Stranger than Fiction:
http://signs-of-the-times.org/signs/Stranger_Than_Fiction.htm
Those will keep you busy for a week or two.
Godspeed!
Political Ponerology - A MUST
http://www.cassiopaea.org/cass/political_ponerology_lobaczewski.htm
The Online version of the wave - another must.
http://www.cassiopaea.org/cass/waveindex.htm (keep clicking through it, multiple pages)
And this is the thread on organic portals, for after you get through the above:
http://www.cassiopaea.org/forum/index.php?topic=457
And if you're interested in 9-11 (its a biggie for me personally) then Stranger than Fiction:
http://signs-of-the-times.org/signs/Stranger_Than_Fiction.htm
Those will keep you busy for a week or two.
Godspeed!
