Coronavirus Pandemic: Apocalypse Now! Or exaggerated scare story?

[genero81]

OK, I admit I must have missed the C's message there (other than it always seems to involve: "Wait and see!") - but if you are pointing it out in such a manner, I KNOW it has to be good, with some humor involved!! That's just how they roll!

Thanks genero. Especially for filling me in on what I may be missing, in such a caring manner...especially if you know what this grasshopper should hear, if he hasn't already?!

(Joe) In terms of populations' reactions to this, it seems to be kinda split. You have a lot of the authoritarian follower types who say to wear your mask and they call the police on people they see walking outside twice a day. And then there are quite a number of other people who maybe normally would be "authoritarian follower" types who seem to be calling BS on this situation because it's SO blatant. So, I was just wondering if a majority of people can actually see through the lies?

A: Not yet. Wait for it!

 

[Persej]

This new study shows why the antibody tests show such low numbers of infected people:

A new study has found that Sars-Cov-2, the virus linked to Covid19, maybe five times more widespread than previously thought, and therefore five times less deadly.

The research, conducted by a team of scientists at the University Hospital in Zurich, is titled: "Systemic and mucosal antibody secretion specific to SARS-CoV-2 during mild versus severe COVID-19", and found that Sars-Cov-2-specific antibodies only appear in the most severe cases, or about 1 out of 5.

The authors infer from this that antibodies are inexplicably absent from the majority of mild cases of covid19. But, given the known inaccuracy of the diagnostic tests and the well-documented tendencies to over-diagnose by clinical observation, another potential explanation would appear to be that the absent antibodies were due to the fact the subjects had never actually been infected with SARS-COV-2 in the first place, and their 'mild' cold-like symptoms were due to some other pathogen, like...the common cold.

However, if the authors are indeed correct in their estimation, this might mean SARS-COV-2's infection rate (IFR) would need to be revised downward yet again. If 80% of those infected really do not produce antibodies then there is a live possibility the virus is present in many more people than usually supposed. Which would in turn potentially reduce the IFR, possibly considerably.

Study suggests 60% of people naturally RESISTANT to SARS-COV2 -- Sott.net

A new study has found that Sars-Cov-2, the virus linked to Covid19, maybe five times more widespread than previously thought, and therefore five times less deadly. The research, conducted by a team of scientists at the University Hospital in...

www.sott.net

 

[Jacques]

Here the measures are really starting to decrease, gatherings of 50 people and less are allowed, the distance is now 1 meter, restaurants have started to reopen.

In addition, a group of citizens has filed a lawsuit against the government and one of the players in that lawsuit is encouraging others to do so. At the moment, there is lawsuits against the governments of Quebec, Ontario, France and....

Unfortunately, the video is in French, but you can enable subtitles and then choose the subtitle translation option.

 

[Anabell]

Lately I been thinking a lot about all the migrants coming to Europe. I know that there is reason for it, as its been happening through out the history, but my line of thought was more going to programing that is connected with religious believes and costumes. Can this be a reason for moving by the PTB for easier program/control of the whole planet? I know that my own moving from east to west world many years ago actually helped me to be more vigilant and made me to start paying more attention to all that is happening around me, noticing how easily people are manipulated, etc. It probably also goes that I had/have more recourses available to me to read and check, if only one is willing. But what I'm also noticing, while talking to people from my country that they are more scared and willing to accept anything just to not experience war, that we had to flee, which most likely is also being counted upon, for programing purposes.

 

[Mandatory Intellectomy]

I need to ask though: how many of your co-workers were pleased by what he said and shared? Were there any who were upset by it, who still buy into the lies?

Like I said...

the people in the office know it's BS, the owner knows it's BS, I haven't seen anybody show any signs of thinking anything else

I haven't seen any signs of disagreement. The workers downstairs all stopped wearing masks long ago, when it was still mandatory everywhere. The people in the office never wore them at work, and they openly talk about this BS being BS. No distancing at work, ever. (And tbh, I've hardly seen any distancing anywhere.) Only one of my co-workers had corona (well, officially - unofficially a few others, including me, think we had it before March), and all I've heard about that is jokes. Nobody ever seemed to have the sense that he was in danger or anything.

Also, as I boycott masks wherever I can, I have run into only one person telling me to put the mask on. Most of the time, nobody really cares, nobody gives me weird looks (except pensioners who always give me weird looks), and nobody seems too serious about following the rules. I mentioned that bike shop where the majority of customers didn't wear masks, and neither did the shop owner. And they didn't even make me wear a mask in the bank, where I really expected it, as I was staring at the picture of a head with a mask right in front of my face.

So while I can't know all the details, the situation here in general is nothing like what I hear from you, Konstantin, or flashgordon. There is also the fact that we only had a few hundred deaths, so most people have hardly seen any corona action at all. (Though, uh, same in NZ and Macedonia...) We officially still have more deaths from the flu than from corona. So most people are just trying to get on with their lives as normally as they legally can.

Sometimes it looks like the only idiots here are politicians and the media. They live in a world of their own, it seems.

Here I am, working with fellow scientists who really care to improve the human condition, and all of them have been so programmed by the MSM that they believe in vaccines and the corona virus scam.

In some ways, scientists can be the most close-minded people. Just look at Naessens's story. Who were the most programmed and unwilling to open their eyes? Doctors and scientists. Their problem often is that they think they already know everything and don't need any fringe opinions to expand their views. They already 'know' it's all nonsense. They already 'know' aliens don't exist. No need for research. They already 'know' how viruses work, even if they don't. You can't teach people who already know everything.

And about improving human condition, that issue is a bit hazy too. Again, look at Naessens. Supposedly the scientists who disagree with him have been looking for a cure for cancer for decades. But have they really?? Every time somebody discovers one (and there have been dozens), they kick him out of their inner circle because s/he's not doing it the way they expect it to be done, so it can't be right. They're not even willing to look if you do things differently. And there's a clear sense of a 'cure for cancer' only counting as real when somebody can make billions of dollars off of it. A 'free' cure for cancer is inconceivable for these people. So you have to ask, are they really trying to improve the human condition? Doesn't their attitude prevent them from doing that?

Now, I'm not saying they're bad people or have any ill intentions. It's just that being well-meaning while at the same time being totally narrow-minded is not exactly very useful, and intelligence without wisdom isn't worth all that much either. And I guess you always have to consider OPs and whether they even have the potential to make any progress.

It's all these well-meaning people around the world that have accepted and asked for this lockdown and all the rest of this idiotic crap. Whether you can help them or not is not so much a matter of whether they're well-meaning, as whether they're open-minded, which clearly most of them aren't.

having supposedly useful knowledge is useless if no one around you is willing to consider and use it.

I get what you mean. I have often thought about whether there's any point to studying so much and doing so much research and knowing so many things that most people around me have no idea about, when I can't really share much of it since most people aren't willing to listen, even if it would benefit them.

But it's not really like that.

For starters, your knowledge benefits you, and no one can take it from you. It improves your quality of life. And it will always be there if anyone finally decides to ask.

And secondly, while your co-workers may seem like lost causes right now, your input is much appreciated here on the forum! People are experts at different things and have different skills, and you know things and have skills that are useful to us here, and we're definitely listening. As far as I can tell, your contributions here are quite popular. I for one am definitely benefiting from your input. So it's definitely not useless!

At least if you are known as 'that guy', if any of them begin to question the orthodoxy they shall know who to have a quiet word with about it to learn a different perspective.

Exactly. When the Cs talked about a point coming when people will have questions and will be looking for answers, you have already established yourself as 'the guy' who always talked about those things that people are starting to wonder about now. Sometimes you just have to wait. (Yeah... "Not yet. Wait for it!")

I believe you are in Eastern Europe? Lobaczewski argued in Political Ponerology that those who went through the experience of a full-blown pathocracy (like the Soviet experience) develop some kind of immunity against such hysterical and pathological situations. So this might in part explain that there is more resilience to this nonsense in Eastern Europe, perhaps also in the third world and so on. But maybe that's too much of a generalization.

Yes to all of it. Having had some kind of similar experience before certainly gives people some perspective. But it also can't be just about that.

I guess people in the US, NZ etc. that have had a more or less unbroken hysterization process for decades without any hardships, open dictatorships etc. are worst off in that regard.

I think so. Here many people have said things like "it's like during communism" or "totalitarianism is back", and so on. In countries that haven't experienced that, it's probably easier to believe that "it's just temporary" and "it's necessary". They don't have that notion of "I've seen that before and it didn't end well".

But there are other factors such as authoritarian followers and so on, so it's hard to tell. Interesting to keep track of which populations do better and which do worse!

Yeah, there are bound to be many factors playing a role in this.

One thing is for sure, though - these are definitely Interesting Times! And I'm grateful for the privilege to be here at this time and see it with my own eyes and experience it directly.

So... enjoy the show, and... wait for it!

 

[Tauriel]

- and, in fact, when I have tried to do so, I got labeled as: "That Guy".

Don't lose hope, Ketone Cop...lol
I'm basically 'that guy(girl)' for almost anybody who knows me....
My experience:
Sometimes people/friends disappear from my life... as life goes.
I don't hear from them but when, for whatever reason, these people/old friends are hitting an all time low or have a nagging question their environment cannot answer they often reconnect with me.
In the meantime I developed a pretty good feeling for it. Suddenly after many years they send an innocent message like 'Hi, long time no see...." and I know that they're in trouble and have noone to ask for advice.
I think it's funny and often feel like a human fire drencher.
Same at work- there are people who prefer to avoid me because they think I'm weird but when a difficult, dangerous or chaotic situation comes up they call me first...
Same with this pandemic scam. The people I usually work with are all relaxed by now and I believe that somehow my attitude to deal with the insanity has helped to create a field of 'we don't take it seriously'. This goes for my fellow nightshift crew. The dayshift teams show a very different attitude with constant mask wearing and obedience to any silly rule.
So what I learned is that there always comes a time for knowledge, for the weird ones, for answers outside of the box and when that time comes we, 'that guy', are searched for.
Wait for it!

 

[PerfectCircle]

Maybe the thermometer broke because you are in hell? Because where I work I'm seeing a lot of the same things, and even Eric Idle couldn't find the fortitude to sing "Always Look on the Bright Side of Life" while nailed to a cross if he were here. Seems the same where you are. I hope I'm wrong, or at the very least that you are doing OK with it and can manage to stay sane within this madness.

Hehe nice one! Well, I am kind of ok, thanks, this forum definitely helps and speaking with sane and conscious people generally helps a lot!
Do not know about you, but to me some bad mood periods come in waves. It is kind of like if you have a trash bag and when it piles up, you need to empty it... then you no longer have trash present around you for some time. I hope this makes sense. :)
If I could give any advice (to anyone) regarding the functioning in a big company/corporation, care about it only when you are at work. When you leave that building, try not to think about your job situations or problems. Sometimes it is easier said than done, but focusing on your hobbies/exercise/reading/writing redirects that negative energy and reduces stress.

 

[flashgordonv]

The CV1984 saga continues in New Zealand. We have been at level 1 lockdown for just over a week. L1 means life is back to normal, other than our borders are supposedly closed. Only Kiwis are allowed to enter the country unless there are special exemptions. Well it seems there have been lots of exemptions, including 50+ crew members of the Avatar movie project and some controversy about them mingling with Kiwi visitors t the hotel in which they are in isolation.

But the big scandal which hit yesterday is that two new cases have been diagnosed. Two UK visitors who were allowed in to visit a dying parent spent a week in isolation and were then allowed to drive Auckland to Wellington to attend a funeral. Both have tested positive. Neither were tested prior to leaving the shortened lockdown, but instead were tested when one of them started experiencing symptoms. The DG of Health was on TV yesterday, (the PM was conspicuously absent at the press conference, as this was bad news) and he claimed they made the 8+ hour drive without refueling and without using any public toilet facilities.

So suddenly, there are a lot of Kiwis now seeing that the government in general and the PM in particular have been systematically lying about the supposed border controls. Rather than having the toughest controls in the world, it has become apparent that it is all a sham. Bearing in mind the PM is now in election mode, it is pretty obvious they have thrown the DG of Health under the bus. All of the very obvious holes in their quarantine policy have become obvious, and they are desperate to distance themselves so that the PMs popularity rating which has been running at 55% (god knows why, just show how many unthinking robots there are in NZ) won't be tarnished. Even the left focused media are unable to ignore this so trouble is coming for the NZ Labour government.
...

Interesting times in New Zealand. It seems that the government is about to find out that the beast they unleashed through aggressive fear tactics around Cv1984 may be about to turn around and savage them. Lay in the popcorn and watch the show.

OK, this is getting funnier by the day. Turns out the 2 ladies visited friends on the way and - gasp - hugged them. The whole episode has resulted in people coming out of the woodwork and telling about their quarantine experiences, and is is quite evident that the whole process has been a complete clusterf&#k. Suddenly you can't find a minister to interview, it is all everybody else's fault, the government is deeply disappointed blah blah blah.

There are two consequences of all this. First, all the people who rigidly followed the home detention rules are very pissed that while they were "doing their part keeping people safe", the government has made such a cockup of their part, the mandatory quarantine. The anger is quite palpable and there is a serious backlash against this socialist virtue signalling government. My wife heard somebody on one of the MSM current affairs shows express the opinion that if the government tried to move back up the levels, Kiwis would just flat our refuse to do it. So much for NZ leading the way, eradicating the virus, leading the world etc etc etc.

The second one is more sinister. The government's story now is that the system didn't work because there were too many different government departments involved and there was no one body with overall authority. So what is the proposed solution? The military will now run the whole process, start to finish. Not only that, but the majority of people think that is a great idea and are loudly applauding that, none of them stopping to think about how that would have been impossible to enact even 4 months ago. But, boom, just like that and the brainless unthinking robots here are clamoring for it, sooner rather than later.

What I am trying to work out is whether this was a planned move - which seems unlikely on the surface as this government are so inept - or whether it was a happy coincidence. Unfortunately I think we might have been played, happy coincidences are a step too far for me and the end result is just so perfect for those people who are trying to tighten the societal screws without causing a riot.

 

[Ketone Cop]

Thanks Genero, I guess I missed that newest session. So, the time IS coming, huh? Well...

Thanks Mathew/Strategic Enclosure for your words and support. I have definitely put out a signal, that's for sure! I've read your own recent thread about what you are feeling yourself lately, and I'll chime in there with my own observations after I post here. I'm definitely feeling a lot of the same things you are at this time.

Hehe nice one! Well, I am kind of ok, thanks, this forum definitely helps and speaking with sane and conscious people generally helps a lot!
Do not know about you, but to me some bad mood periods come in waves. It is kind of like if you have a trash bag and when it piles up, you need to empty it... then you no longer have trash present around you for some time. I hope this makes sense. :)
If I could give any advice (to anyone) regarding the functioning in a big company/corporation, care about it only when you are at work. When you leave that building, try not to think about your job situations or problems. Sometimes it is easier said than done, but focusing on your hobbies/exercise/reading/writing redirects that negative energy and reduces stress.

Hi Perfect Circle, thanks for your thoughts. I definitely have been "piling up" some bad juju lately. I am very grateful to have this forum to share things with, and to have so many caring people with true compassion chipping in. I think this forum is what is getting me through my day to day life right now. I have few close friends or family living anywhere near me any more, and I think a lot of what I am feeling is due to my isolation. But I do try to leave work at work and don't bring it home with me. It's the relationships I have there - or apparently *don't* have - that bother me at night. It amazes me how it is possible to work with someone every day for almost twenty years, and it turns out that I still do not really know them.

Don't lose hope, Ketone Cop...lol
I'm basically 'that guy(girl)' for almost anybody who knows me....
My experience:
Sometimes people/friends disappear from my life... as life goes.
I don't hear from them but when, for whatever reason, these people/old friends are hitting an all time low or have a nagging question their environment cannot answer they often reconnect with me.
In the meantime I developed a pretty good feeling for it. Suddenly after many years they send an innocent message like 'Hi, long time no see...." and I know that they're in trouble and have noone to ask for advice.
I think it's funny and often feel like a human fire drencher.
Same at work- there are people who prefer to avoid me because they think I'm weird but when a difficult, dangerous or chaotic situation comes up they call me first...
Same with this pandemic scam. The people I usually work with are all relaxed by now and I believe that somehow my attitude to deal with the insanity has helped to create a field of 'we don't take it seriously'. This goes for my fellow nightshift crew. The dayshift teams show a very different attitude with constant mask wearing and obedience to any silly rule.
So what I learned is that there always comes a time for knowledge, for the weird ones, for answers outside of the box and when that time comes we, 'that guy', are searched for.
Wait for it!

Hi Tauriel, thanks too for your words! I too have had friends and family ask me what I know, and that has gone well. One close friend I hadn't heard from in three years just contacted me again last month, and the first thing she wrote was "you knew this was going to happen, didn't you!" So that part has been rewarding. But at work it's so totally different that it's hard to deal with. They are all "pod people" waiting for me to join them. Mass insanity like that is hard to deal with daily without having it affect you. But I'm personally glad that your own world is going better. And keep posting! I always look forward to what you have to share.

Like I said...

I haven't seen any signs of disagreement. The workers downstairs all stopped wearing masks long ago, when it was still mandatory everywhere. The people in the office never wore them at work, and they openly talk about this BS being BS. No distancing at work, ever. (And tbh, I've hardly seen any distancing anywhere.) Only one of my co-workers had corona (well, officially - unofficially a few others, including me, think we had it before March), and all I've heard about that is jokes. Nobody ever seemed to have the sense that he was in danger or anything.

Also, as I boycott masks wherever I can, I have run into only one person telling me to put the mask on. Most of the time, nobody really cares, nobody gives me weird looks (except pensioners who always give me weird looks), and nobody seems too serious about following the rules. I mentioned that bike shop where the majority of customers didn't wear masks, and neither did the shop owner. And they didn't even make me wear a mask in the bank, where I really expected it, as I was staring at the picture of a head with a mask right in front of my face.

So while I can't know all the details, the situation here in general is nothing like what I hear from you, Konstantin, or flashgordon. There is also the fact that we only had a few hundred deaths, so most people have hardly seen any corona action at all. (Though, uh, same in NZ and Macedonia...) We officially still have more deaths from the flu than from corona. So most people are just trying to get on with their lives as normally as they legally can.

Sometimes it looks like the only idiots here are politicians and the media. They live in a world of their own, it seems.

In some ways, scientists can be the most close-minded people. Just look at Naessens's story. Who were the most programmed and unwilling to open their eyes? Doctors and scientists. Their problem often is that they think they already know everything and don't need any fringe opinions to expand their views. They already 'know' it's all nonsense. They already 'know' aliens don't exist. No need for research. They already 'know' how viruses work, even if they don't. You can't teach people who already know everything.

And about improving human condition, that issue is a bit hazy too. Again, look at Naessens. Supposedly the scientists who disagree with him have been looking for a cure for cancer for decades. But have they really?? Every time somebody discovers one (and there have been dozens), they kick him out of their inner circle because s/he's not doing it the way they expect it to be done, so it can't be right. They're not even willing to look if you do things differently. And there's a clear sense of a 'cure for cancer' only counting as real when somebody can make billions of dollars off of it. A 'free' cure for cancer is inconceivable for these people. So you have to ask, are they really trying to improve the human condition? Doesn't their attitude prevent them from doing that?

Now, I'm not saying they're bad people or have any ill intentions. It's just that being well-meaning while at the same time being totally narrow-minded is not exactly very useful, and intelligence without wisdom isn't worth all that much either. And I guess you always have to consider OPs and whether they even have the potential to make any progress.

It's all these well-meaning people around the world that have accepted and asked for this lockdown and all the rest of this idiotic crap. Whether you can help them or not is not so much a matter of whether they're well-meaning, as whether they're open-minded, which clearly most of them aren't.

I get what you mean. I have often thought about whether there's any point to studying so much and doing so much research and knowing so many things that most people around me have no idea about, when I can't really share much of it since most people aren't willing to listen, even if it would benefit them.

But it's not really like that.

For starters, your knowledge benefits you, and no one can take it from you. It improves your quality of life. And it will always be there if anyone finally decides to ask.

And secondly, while your co-workers may seem like lost causes right now, your input is much appreciated here on the forum! People are experts at different things and have different skills, and you know things and have skills that are useful to us here, and we're definitely listening. As far as I can tell, your contributions here are quite popular. I for one am definitely benefiting from your input. So it's definitely not useless!

Exactly. When the Cs talked about a point coming when people will have questions and will be looking for answers, you have already established yourself as 'the guy' who always talked about those things that people are starting to wonder about now. Sometimes you just have to wait. (Yeah... "Not yet. Wait for it!")

Thanks M.I. Sorry I missed your sharing about your work; I guess I was just so "programmed" to look for negative crap that what you wrote about your positive work situation didn't register. And thanks for commiserating with me re: scientists who think they know everything but don't, and your Naessens shares that I will address on the terrain theory thread at some point. And thanks for your kind words! I will continue to share while I can. This forum does a lot to help me validate my beliefs, and that my knowledge is useful.

But on to those idiots in the media and politicians that you mentioned. This just happened here in California today:

https://www.kcra.com/article/guidelines-and-exemptions-to-californias-new-mask-order/32910338#

Our governor just mandated wearing face masks basically everywhere but in the shower. So now I will have to wear one everywhere I go, or face jail time and fines.

And everyone I have talked to here so far is totally on-board with it. My co-worker made sure I got the news, because he feels "threatened" by me not wearing a mask - even though we are never closer than six feet.

If I hadn't just been forced to sign a new lease last month, and didn't have two more years of car payments, I'd take early retirement and get the hell out of this God-forsaken state. This place could be my death. Maybe I will just go ahead and do it and declare bankruptcy and give up my car. But somehow, I don't think there is enough time left to do much more. So, again, I have to surrender.

Thanks again everyone for your support and comforting thoughts. It does help, more than you know.

 

[Ketone Cop]

While sitting here and re-reading what I wrote, and what Tauriel and I.M. shared above, I just had something of an epiphany.

I'm looking at my situation in entirely the wrong manner. And in a completely STS way.

"Oh, poor me! I'm stuck here in no-man's land with no support, no love, no way out and I'm going to die in this hellhole state!"

Rewind that.

All my life I have made choices that put me on a very directed course of study that has given me the knowledge that I have now - knowledge that is very specifically applicable to these times and circumstances, and which could prove very valuable to others, in time.

I made the choice in college to specifically study not just biology, but microbiology and genetics, because I wanted to know how things worked at the molecular level. And to balance that, I also minored in chemistry - and philosophy - with an emphasis in religious studies. It was those studies that led me to initially discover Carlos Castaneda, and from there leading ultimately to this forum. And in between I worked in the biowarfare field for a government agency, and became sickened by the very bacteria that was the subject of my master's thesis - which was about a virus (specific to that bacterial species).

NONE of that was an accident. And I am very, very blessed to have followed that path, because it has given me nearly unparalleled understanding of exactly what we are all experiencing at this time. I really am fortunate in many ways. And for my friends and family, my knowledge HAS been a boon.

So people around me won't listen now. OK, but I've made it known I have it, and am willing to share. I've done all I can, as Matthew stated above.

It is no mistake either that I had to sign that lease, and I have to stay here in order to pay off that car loan.

I live in an area where, among my sphere of influence, there is NOT ONE OTHER PERSON who has *any* inkling of what I know. No one else I know has even bothered to look at any of the material that I have.

If I were to leave here, right now, this area may very well be completely bereft of anyone who knows much of the objective truth of what is going on, as we have shared here on this forum.

I need to be here. Because if the C's are right, then the time WILL come when what I know will be needed by others. I could help, then. And maybe a lot of people.

But of course, I have to now watch myself to keep from building up a "big head" because of what I may think I know. And to be the big fish in a small pond when that time comes, and not take advantage of any of it - but to simply share and help as needed, which isn't really going to be a big thing because I have always done that anyway.

So, again, I surrender.

I am where I need to be. And I need to let go, and let God.

 

[SOTTREADER]

Coronavirus: South Asia most likely to die in hospital | FR24 News English

www.fr24news.com

The study is extremely important, as it evaluated the four-by-10 data from all patients in the hospital with Covid-19.

The researchers said that policies such as protecting people at work and who receives a vaccine may now need to change.

Looks like these people are angling at legitimising visiting the vaccine to minorities first.

This links back to Bill Gates (the cow) and what he's saying regarding the vaccine distribution in the US

Asked who needs vaccines after health care workers, Gates told the magazine, "in the U.S., that would be Black people next, quite honestly, and many other people of color."

"They are having disproportionate effects from COVID-19. From there, people with underlying health conditions, and then people who are older. Those are the ones who all need it first. We also need to think about essential workers who are keeping our grocery stores open for us so we can buy food, or who are making sure that food moves through the warehouses."

 

[Persej]

Not perfect, but still a very interesting article in NewStatesman:

How pandemics extinguished the Roman empire

What the fall of Rome teaches us about the twin threats of lethal disease and ecological disaster.
BY JOHN GRAY

At their peak during the reign of Trajan, around the start of the second century AD, the Romans had governed distant regions of the globe for longer than any other pre-modern state. The empire’s borders stretched across the Rhine, the Danube, the Euphrates, the edge of the Sahara and northern Britain. By the time of Pope Gregory the Great (c540-604), the Roman colossus had become a Byzantine outpost ruling a few scattered territories from Constantinople. With the breakdown of the Roman order western Europe fragmented into warring Germanic kingdoms while Islamic armies conquered much of what remained of the empire. Housing around one million people in the first century AD, Rome was reduced to around 20,000 inhabitants.

As Kyle Harper writes, the fall of Rome may have been “the single greatest regression in all of human history”. In 1984, he tells us, a German classicist catalogued more than 200 explanations of this regression. Military over-reach, increasing reliance on slave labour, excessive spending and taxation to pay for a decadent diet of “bread and circuses”, and the rise of Christianity have been cited. Rome did not fall in a day, and no doubt these and other factors featured in a long process of decline. But all of these standard accounts put human agency at the heart of the story, when the deciding forces may not have been human at all. Instead, Harper argues compellingly, it was pandemic diseases amplified by shifts in the climate that unravelled the global networks of connectivity the Romans had constructed over centuries. As he puts it, “The ecology of the empire had built an infrastructure awaiting a pandemic.”

Among the casualties of the Roman collapse was a classical view of the world. In Stoicism – a system of thought widespread among Roman aristocrats and administrators, and embodied in the philosopher-emperor Marcus Aurelius (121-180) – wisdom was achieved by identifying oneself with an unchanging natural order. In this view there could be no new evils: no novel diseases, for example, for which a wise humanity would be unprepared. A virtuous civilised way of life could be achieved and preserved by emulating a rational and harmonious cosmos.

A succession of pandemics shattered this classical world-view. The Antonine Plague began in 165 and peaked around 180, when witnesses reported as many as 2,000 people dying in Rome every day and mortality throughout the empire ran into millions. Overall, Harper estimates, around seven million people may have perished during this pandemic. Struggling to make sense of this catastrophe, which mocked his faith in a rational cosmos, Aurelius fell back in his Meditations on the Stoic practice of trying to live each day as his last.

In the mid-third century Rome was shaken by the Plague of Cyprian, whose nature is still obscure. By the time of Gregory and the catastrophic Justinian plague – a bubonic pandemic like the medieval Black Death – the natural world had come to be seen as chaotic and antagonistic to humankind. The result was a febrile cult of the god Apollo, while Christianity received a boost without which it might not have gone on to be adopted as the failing empire’s state religion.

As Harper makes clear, the altered perception of the natural world that accompanied the fall of Rome reflected changing environmental realities. The planet’s ecology was no more stable in the ancient world than it is today. The Romans themselves had changed it:

By its nature, Roman civilisation seemed to unlock the pestilential potential of the landscape. The expansion of agriculture brought civilisation deeper into habitats friendly with the mosquito. Deforestation facilitated the pooling of water and turned the forbidding forest into fields where mosquitos more easily multiplied… The Romans were environmental engineers extraordinaire.

Yet shifts in climate were not, in Roman times, primarily anthropogenic in origin: “Climate change was always an exogenous factor, a true wild card transcending all the other rules of the game. From without, it reshaped the demographic and agrarian foundations of life, upon which the more elaborate structures of society and the state depended.” Small changes in the path of the Earth, together with slight variations in its tilt and spin, changed the planetary climate in lasting ways. During the Pleistocene era there were long periods of icy cold, and it was only when the planet entered the warm and wet Holocene around 12,000 years ago that complex and extended societies and forms of government could develop. Even then, solar activity interacted with the Earth’s inherently variable climate to disrupt the pattern of human life. Violent eruptions during the reign of Justinian produced a colder period – the Late Antique Little Ice Age – that lasted for around 150 years. The cycle of the seasons was disturbed and crops failed. Overall, though, the Romans were lucky. Their empire reached its maximal extent during a period of relative stability called the Roman Climate Optimum.

Human agency was at work in the fall of Rome through the unintended consequences of the near-global connectivity the empire embodied. Infection entered Rome via far-flung trade networks and flea-ridden rodent populations that thrived in grain stores. With human numbers higher than ever before, large populations were crowded together in cities. Tuberculosis, leprosy and a formidable array of fevers were endemic. The vast reach of Roman power exposed these vulnerable populations to infections from the furthest reaches of the Earth. The Roman plagues were a by-product of an early experiment in globalisation. The possibility, and eventual inevitability, of pandemics was wired into the structures of imperial Rome at the height of its power.

Rome was defeated by natural causes, but it did not fall because of a scarcity of natural resources. Deploying ruthless force, technological ingenuity and high levels of political skill, the empire escaped the supposedly iron laws of population laid down by Thomas Malthus in the 18th century. It was not an inability to feed itself that felled the Roman colossus. A subtler Malthusian dynamic was in play. “The dense urban habitats, the unflinching transformation of landscapes, the strong networks of connectivity within – and especially beyond – the empire, all contributed to a unique microbial environment.” The very achievements of Roman civilisation contained the conditions for its collapse. The far-reaching interconnectedness that the Roman empire secured made it intrinsically fragile. By constructing the closest approximation to date of a universal order, the Romans created ideal conditions for the plagues that would overwhelm it.

A professor of classics and letters, and the senior vice-president and provost at the University of Oklahoma, Harper has given us a book that will be of urgent interest to readers struggling to adjust to a disruption in their experience unlike any they have known. But the value of his book (first published in 2017) does not depend on this grim coincidence. However the current pandemic unfolds, this revelatory successor to Edward Gibbon’s Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire (1776) presents an interpretation of one of history’s turning points that is mind-opening and salutary.

A key theme in Harper’s story is that the collapse of Roman civilisation could not have been avoided by greater sagacity. When they built their grand edifice the Romans could not have known that they were also creating an environment in which diseases could spread as never before, and they had no understanding of the climate changes that were under way. Still less could they have known that a conjunction of the two would lead to the destruction of their world. It is hardly surprising that by the time of Gregory, the Roman mind was unhinged by eschatological fears and apocalyptic religions.

****

The world in which Covid-19 emerged is too different from that of the Romans for any exact parallels to be possible. Much is known about climate change, including the fact that its current wave is predominantly man-made. Virology is an advancing science, and a vaccine is a realistic prospect. Conceivably, Covid-19 may not turn out to be as deadly as some earlier viruses. It could even disappear, as did Sars in 2002-04. But there appears to be little scientific evidence for these speculative possibilities, and basing policies on them would be reckless in the extreme.

The more fundamental point is that the future behaviour of the virus is unknown. Different statistical models produce divergent trajectories for its spread and lethality. Science is an area of human activity in which the steady growth of knowledge is a demonstrable reality. But scientific inquiry cannot eliminate uncertainty regarding the future, or the impact this uncertainty has on the mind when human well-being is seriously at risk. In this regard and others, we may be closer to the Romans than we like to think.

There are undeniable similarities. It is not only that Covid-19 appeared during a time of peak globalisation, with tightly stretched supply chains that had little resilience to shocks. The virus has also emerged against a background of large-scale environmental engineering. In an ominous twist of the Malthusian dynamic, humans are expanding into and swiftly degrading regions such as the Amazon that were previously lightly inhabited by hunter-gatherers. As these areas are turned over to agriculture, local ecologies are severely disturbed. Wilderness is fast vanishing, and as it retreats animal-borne infections jump more easily to humans. Population growth gives this process a powerful momentum. As Harper writes, “The growth of human numbers has… rewritten the rules of the game for the microbial co-residents of the planet Earth.” Mass air-travel accelerates disease transmission from wildlife markets and factory farms. Like ancient Rome, the pre-Covid global order was wired for pandemic.

It is the impact of the virus on prevailing belief systems that suggests the most intriguing parallels. Just as the combination of climate change with pandemics undermined a ruling classical world-view, the virus has shaken the modern faith that humankind can reshape the natural world as it pleases. The very idea of nature as an insuperable constraint on human ambitions has become heretical. For many, it seems, nothing really exists apart from human thoughts and feelings. Serving no human purpose, the virus is a deadly threat to this solipsistic modern faith. As Harper writes:

There are maybe a trillion microbial species in total; the average human lumbers around bearing 40 trillion bacterial cells alone. They have been here for some three and a half billion years. It’s a microbe’s world – we’re just living in it.

It was only to be expected that views of the world would mutate with the arrival of the pandemic. Given the abrupt and drastic alteration in everyday experience it has brought, things could scarcely be otherwise. But the result has not been any greater realism in thinking. Undermining an established narrative of human advance, the pandemic has revealed and catalysed deep conflicts. Geopolitical rivalries are intensifying and xenophobia is being weaponised. In what used to be called the liberal West, intellectual tribalism and volatile ideologies thrive while conspiracy theories abound, along with fake news and quack cures. Political conflicts and cultural wars are being fought out with passionate intensity, while the virus – a lethal reminder of the brute reality of the unruly material world – spreads regardless of human beliefs.

As a result of the unequal costs of lockdown, government failures and demagogic manipulation, divisions within societies have sharpened. Initial solidarity in face of the pandemic has fractured. Compliance with social distancing is fraying and in some contexts breaking down. Protests against the public murder by police of an unarmed African American are justified by the intolerable racism that fuelled the killing. However, the virus does not care whether mass gatherings are peaceful or violent, composed of anti-racists or white supremacists, opportunistic looters or Cheltenham race-goers. Nor does it attach any significance to the fact that black people and other minorities are far more likely to be killed by it than the rest of the population. For the virus, all sections of society are targets and all mass gatherings super-spreader events.

Here, early-20th-century history sounds a note of warning. On 28 September 1918, while the First World War was still under way and the influenza epidemic seemed to be fading, the city of Philadelphia staged a grand parade to support the war effort. Around 200,000 people crowded together in Broad Street to cheer the marchers, and among them were some infected by the flu virus. On 3 October, municipal authorities locked down the city. By 5 October, around 2,600 people had died, and a week later the figure topped 4,500. Over a six-month period as many as 20,000 died of flu in the city. There must have been dozens, possibly hundreds of such mass gatherings in the US and other countries over the past few weeks. Some have observed degrees of social distancing, and Covid-19 is not flu. Even so, the risks are plain.

The pandemic has no pre-ordained trajectory, and because of our vastly superior medical resources is very unlikely to follow the catastrophic path of its predecessors in Roman times. Instead it poses a question. Human knowledge has increased tremendously, but are we so much more reasonable than the Romans were at their peak? Or are we descending into a state of collective derangement, far more rapidly than they did? The answer may begin to be clear over the coming months.

The Fate of Rome: Climate, Disease and the End of an Empire
Kyle Harper
Princeton University Press, 440pp, £15.99

John Gray is the New Statesman’s lead book reviewer. His latest book is The Soul of the Marionette: A Short Enquiry into Human Freedom.

How pandemics extinguished the Roman empire

At their peak during the reign of Trajan, around the start of the second century AD, the Romans had governed distant regions of the globe for longer than any other pre-modern state. The empire’s borders stretched across the Rhine, the Danube, the Euphrates, the edge of the Sahara and northern...

www.newstatesman.com

 

[Persej]

EU goes easy on GMOs in race for COVID-19 vaccine

As part of its new vaccine strategy, the European Commission has proposed to temporarily relax the EU’s strict rules on genetically modified organisms (GMOs) in order to speed up the search for a COVID-19 vaccine and cure.

Brussels is ready to loosen its stance on GMOs in order to avoid bottlenecks in clinical trials for a coronavirus vaccine involving multiple countries.

Current GMO legislation does not foresee situations of urgency, resulting in very complex and time-consuming procedures, the Commission argues, saying “there is considerable variety across member states in the national requirements and procedures implementing the GMO directives.”

Potential vaccines currently under development by pharmaceutical companies such as Astra Zeneca and Johnson & Johnson contain or consist of GMOs.

The proposed derogation, which still needs to be voted by the European Parliament and the EU Council of Ministers, will last for as long as COVID-19 is regarded as a public health emergency, the Commission said.

The relaxed rules will apply not only for clinical trials on a COVID-19 vaccine but also for treatments, the Commission’s communication reads, although compliance with good manufacturing practices (GMPs) and an environmental risk assessment of the products will still be carried out before their marketing authorisation.

The Commission called on the EU’s co-legislators to adopt the proposal swiftly in order to enable clinical trials to take place in Europe as quickly as possible.

German MEP Peter Liese, European People’s Party (EPP) spokesperson for health, agreed with the Commission’s push on passing the derogation as soon as possible, saying that it needs to be done before the summer break.

“It’s a challenge to do it in 3-weeks time, but at the Parliament, we have followed fast-track procedures for less crucial issues in the past,” he said.

Although GMOs are controversial, Liese said the proposed temporary change in legislation would be “small” and “very targeted, aiming at having a European evaluation of the risk of GMOs.

A first debate on the proposal is planned in the European Parliament’s environmental and health committee (ENVI) next Monday (22 June), with the participation of Health Commissioner Stella Kyriakides.

The EU executive also proposed a more flexible approach to other regulatory processes, like a fast-track procedure for market authorisation, labelling and packaging requirements of medicines.

For instance, shortening the period for consulting member states and allowing translation of the documents into the full set of languages after the authorisation rather than before will reduce the Commission’s authorisation procedure from nine weeks to one, the executive said.

The call for greater flexibility in EU’s regulatory framework is included in the Commission’s vaccine strategy, unveiled on Wednesday (17 June), which sets out to accelerate the development, manufacturing and deployment of vaccines against COVID-19.

In the strategy, the Commission proposed a €2.7 billion Emergency Support Instrument to buy COVID-19 vaccines upfront, making use of advance purchase agreements (APAs) and entering into agreements with individual vaccine producers on behalf of the member states.

This comes after the initiative of four member states that already clinched a deal with drugmaker Astra Zeneca for the supply of an experimental COVID-19 vaccine.

The initiative, led by France, Germany, Italy and the Netherlands, was criticised by some other member states during the Health EU Council on 12 June, as they would have preferred a more European approach.

The Commission offered to run a central procurement process, scaling up the approach of the 4-country-coalition to cover the whole EU.

“Working together will increase our chances of securing access to a safe and effective vaccine at the scale we need and as quickly as possible,” said Health Commissioner Stella Kyriakides.

EU goes easy on GMOs in race for COVID-19 vaccine

As part of its new vaccine strategy, the European Commission has proposed to temporarily relax the EU's strict rules on genetically modified organisms (GMOs) in order to speed up the search for a COVID-19 vaccine and cure.

www.euractiv.com

So this is the first vaccine in EU which consist of GMO virus? And it is the type of virus that is used in gene therapy. Hmm, I would say that they definitely want to change our genes. And they are in a hurry.

 

[Matthew]

While sitting here and re-reading what I wrote, and what Tauriel and I.M. shared above, I just had something of an epiphany.
{....}

The contrast between your posts on this matter a day or so ago and this one are stark. It just goes to show the wisdom of the C's regarding networking. By expressing how you feel, getting feedback from others here you have been able to work through it to get to a much better mindset and that's wonderful. I have been doing something similar myself over the last few days (although it's regarding a personal matter and the correspondence is off this site) and came to a bit of an epiphany myself today too. Sometimes I want to give the C's and all of you here just the biggest hug!

 

[Mandatory Intellectomy]

Our governor just mandated wearing face masks basically everywhere but in the shower. So now I will have to wear one everywhere I go, or face jail time and fines.

Well, that sounds dumb, but looking at the article and listening to the news report, it doesn't seem that extreme.

Where and when are masks required?
-- In office settings where people cannot physically distance.

From what you've said, I think you've implemented distancing at work, so there should be no need for masks. (And the news said the same for outside.) So if people at work have a problem with you not having a mask, tell them, "Just stay 6 feet away and you'll be fine, dipshit." ('Dipshit' is voluntary. That's just what I would say.)
I would give people grim looks and maintain my 6 feet personal space. But I'm sure there's a polite way to go about it too.

Also I haven't seen anything in the report about fines or jail. Is there actually a law for this? Just because a governor says something doesn't mean you have to do it. I would look into the legality of this. I think in a lot of places they tell you you have to wear a mask, but they can't actually make it a legal requirement. Most people comply anyway and pretty much nobody really checks whether they can force you. I dunno, the news report didn't seem like there's much justifiable force behind the decision. You'd have to look into the details.

“Science shows that face coverings and masks work,” said Gov. Gavin Newsom.

Work how? What do they do? Prevent healthy people from infecting other people with a virus they don't have? If you have no symptoms, you can't infect anyone with anything, mask or not. Somebody should ask the governor these questions. The propaganda has been simplified to "masks work", but nobody bothers explaining what it means.

If I hadn't just been forced to sign a new lease last month, and didn't have two more years of car payments, I'd take early retirement and get the hell out of this God-forsaken state. This place could be my death.

You should probably get out anyway:

A: Yes. California is no longer "paradise" and will shortly look more like hell.

If I were to leave here, right now, this area may very well be completely bereft of anyone who knows much of the objective truth of what is going on, as we have shared here on this forum.

But so might be the area you move to. The knowledge base of 'an area' is not your responsibility, imo. Shouldn't be a reason to stay somewhere. (Anyway, staying or leaving is a complicated matter, and only you know your circumstances, so...)

Count yourself lucky, M.I. (I hope you don't mind the initials; I just seem to misspell your avatar name so often when trying to type it out that my backspace button is getting sticky.)

No problem...

While sitting here and re-reading what I wrote, and what Tauriel and I.M. shared above, I just had something of an epiphany.

...though it seems the initials are not really helping with misspelling, lol. (Don't worry about it. I just thought it was funny.)


In other news, I went to the supermarket today, and I realised I felt differently about the mask crap than before. Before, I would feel like I have to look out and be on my guard. Today, I felt like 'fk this, I don't care anymore'. So I never even pretended to put the mask even partially on and went about my business quite carelessly, and I felt calm. I figured if somebody asked me to put the mask on, I'd just say "Meh, but I don't wanna ruin my health with this dumb thing." And I felt like that would be it. Like at best they would tell me something like, "Well, you should have it on", but nobody would push it. I think things have changed even for the 'normal' people.

I think this has gone on for too long (we've had masks since the middle of March, so over 3 months). Nobody cares anymore. People do what they're told because they don't want any trouble, but I don't think they care about this nonsense and about what other people are doing. So I don't think there are many people inclined to tell me to put the mask on, and if they do and I say 'Nope', there probably won't be much they'll do about it. Nobody said anything today or even looked concerned.

My brother told me he went to a few places without a mask because he either didn't bother or forgot about it, and either nobody said anything, or they did but it wasn't a problem anyway. In one place he entered and somebody immediately shouted that he should have a mask. So he stopped and looked around to see what would happen. Then the other person said, "Oh well, come on then." So it was a programmed reaction, but the person didn't insist on it.

In the area of 100,000 people where I live, there have been officially zero infected people for the last 3 weeks. So why are we wearing masks at all? I think many people have noticed that this doesn't add up. It's pretty much over here. Only the government needs to catch up.