Do-it-yourself liposomal nutrients

[jimme]

I'm sorry to be the bringer of bad news here, but after much research and experimentation I doubt if liposomal Vitamin C can be made with a cheap (or probably any) ultrasonic cleaner. Here is how anyone can confirm this for themselves.

Mix up 8 to 10 grams of Vitamin C, ascorbic acid or sodium ascorbate, using any of the recipes as described in previous posts. Take the full 8 to 10 gram dose at one time and the telltale loose or runny stool will show that bowel tolerance has been reached. If 70 to 80 percent of the mixture was liposomal, then only about 2 to 3 grams of it would be non-liposomal or unencapsulated and should not bring you to bowel tolerance.

More confirmation comes from this comment at amazon.com

FROM MERCOLA's own Customer service!!! - “we have found through our own independent testing facility that while there aren't actually liposomes inside of our capsules, they do indeed contain all of the ingredients necessary to create liposomes when they are taken with water."

http://www.amazon.com/Liposomal-Vitamin-Mercola-Licaps-Capsules/product-reviews/B00BBF9Z40/ref=cm_cr_dp_qt_hist_one?ie=UTF8&filterBy=addOneStar&showViewpoints=0

Also view the links at my first post above. If anyone has a recipe that will pass the 8 to 10 gram test as described above, please let me know the specifics on your recipe. Thanks guys.

 

[Leòmhann]

The ratios I've been working with are from earlier in the thread:

With ascorbic acid:

1 cup water, 3 TBSP acid form of vitamin C to 1 cup water and 3 TBSP of lecithin.

But with sodium ascorbate (or vitamin C added to sodium bicarbonate):

1 cup water, 6 TBSP vitamin C, 3 or 4 tsps of sodium bicarbonate
added to 1 cup water with 3 TBSP dissolved lecithin.

As for how I feel when taking it, several weeks ago I started making it again after a hiatus (the cheapee ultrasonic cleaner I was using stopped working and a new and hopefully better model was needed). Just a few days after starting to make and take the lyposomal vitamin C again, I noticed that may energy levels were like 25% higher and realized that, since I was doing nothing else differently, it had to be the C. So good stuff indeed, but as fabric says it's a good idea to take it on as empty a stomach as possible to prevent iron loading.

Yes, although we also have Dr Mercola's Liposomal C (available at Amazon for $14.97), seek10 just hooked us up with a fresh batch of Lipo C, and I noticed, too, a revivifying affect, an uplifting energy surge akin to taking something like liquid life energy ... pretty darn amazing !!! :P

Thank You So Much, seek10!!

 

[fabric]

I'm sorry to be the bringer of bad news here, but after much research and experimentation I doubt if liposomal Vitamin C can be made with a cheap (or probably any) ultrasonic cleaner. Here is how anyone can confirm this for themselves.

Mix up 8 to 10 grams of Vitamin C, ascorbic acid or sodium ascorbate, using any of the recipes as described in previous posts. Take the full 8 to 10 gram dose at one time and the telltale loose or runny stool will show that bowel tolerance has been reached. If 70 to 80 percent of the mixture was liposomal, then only about 2 to 3 grams of it would be non-liposomal or unencapsulated and should not bring you to bowel tolerance.

More confirmation comes from this comment at amazon.com

FROM MERCOLA's own Customer service!!! - “we have found through our own independent testing facility that while there aren't actually liposomes inside of our capsules, they do indeed contain all of the ingredients necessary to create liposomes when they are taken with water."

http://www.amazon.com/Liposomal-Vitamin-Mercola-Licaps-Capsules/product-reviews/B00BBF9Z40/ref=cm_cr_dp_qt_hist_one?ie=UTF8&filterBy=addOneStar&showViewpoints=0

Also view the links at my first post above. If anyone has a recipe that will pass the 8 to 10 gram test as described above, please let me know the specifics on your recipe. Thanks guys.

I'm not so sure how effective that would be in measuring how much liposomal C is encapsulated. Depending on your requirements (for example if one is sick) your body will take a longer time to reach bowel tolerance than if you were in good health, encapsulated or not.

So I've been using something similar to Laura's recipe (the baking soda version - 1 cup water, 6 TBSP vitamin C, 6 tsps (instead of 3 or 4) of sodium bicarbonate
added to 1 cup water with 3 TBSP dissolved lecithin. Then 25-30 min in the ultrasonic cleaner) and what I end up with has never separated or come out gunky like mentioned in that PDF. The recipe makes to what amounts to 5g/oz of solution. I've taken up to 2 or 3 ounces (10-15g) without bowel tolerance and there have been times when I take just a tbs (2.5g) and I reach bowel tolerance.

I did find this...

_http://curezone.com/forums/fm.asp?i=1554526&s=#i33

From the Silver List.

Although not scientifically rigorous, I offer a simple test which will yield the DIY researcher some element of confidence that they do, in fact, have a useful measure of liposomal encapsulate.

First, pour about 4 ounces of your finished Vitamin C encapsulate into a cylindrical, 12 ounce water glass. Next, place 1/4 teaspoon of sodium bicarbonate into about 1 ounce of distilled water and stir for 3 to 5 seconds. Next, pour the sodium bicarbonate solution into the Vitamin C mixture and stir gently for several seconds.

Note: If the foam/bubble line which forms on top is 1/2 inch or less—in height—you have about a 50% encapsulation efficiency. If the foam/bubble line is 3/8 of one inch…or less, you have about a 60% efficiency.

If the foam/bubble line is 1/8 inch or less, you have about 75% efficiency. If the foam/bubble line is just a trace…..you should major in chemistry.

The percentages given above, represent the amount of the total Vitamin C component incorporated during the encapsulation process…..that was actually encapsulated. The less encapsulation….the greater the foaming.

What is, actually, occurring in this test is that the ascorbic acid fraction is being transformed into the sodium ascorbate form of vitamin C. This test does not negatively affect the usefulness of the solution you have tested…..as the isolated Vitamin C component is not adversely affecting the encapsulate (which is being protected by the lecithin bubble-covering.) Actually, the sodium ascorbate form of vitamin C is greater than an order-of-magnitude more soluble for tissue incorporation……than is the ascorbic acid form.

In any event this simple test should serve to raise the level of confidence in the DIY researcher…. that they do—in fact—have a useful measure of encapsulated vitamin C.
Sincerely, Brooks Bradley.

I tried this with the solution I made and I ended up with about 1/8" of foam - so according to them is around 75% encapsulation. So if that's any indication, seems like it came out okay... or so I think.

 

[jimme]

fabric, thanks for your reply. Yes, I could have been more specific. The 8 to 10 gram test would only apply to someone in relatively good health. Acute infectious disease, cancer or other serious disease, smoking, excessive alcohol, being overweight, taking multiple prescription drugs, and other factors might require 15 to 20 grams before bowel tolerance is reached.

I doubt if anyone of average weight, in good health and with regular bowel activity, will reach bowel tolerance at 2 to 3 grams of Vitamin C, unless they are also taking again, prescription drugs or something else that might affect bowel activity such as magnesium.

I eat close to 2 pounds of leafy greens every day and bowel activity works like clockwork at least 2 to 3 times per day. By no means is this type of bowel activity going to be average among the standard low fiber or no greens eating crowd, so again I could have been more specific.

I guess we would be looking for people with experience using high dose Vitamin C on a regular basis who are willing to take this test 2 or 3 times to confirm it's accuracy.

So the 8 to 10 gram test is by no means simple or straightforward for the average person. Anyone else who is in relatively good health as described here, and is willing to take this test a few times, please provide us with feedback on your experiences.

What gives me greater concern regarding making liposomal Vitamin C with an ultrasonic cleaner are the statements from Mercola's office and other prominent voices such as the Vitamin C Foundation and Livon Labs as provided in the links.

 

[aragorn]

Jimme, could you specify what exactly is your concern with making lipo-C?

 

[jimme]

Jimme, could you specify what exactly is your concern with making lipo-C?

I'm concerned that liposomal C can't be made with an ultrasonic cleaner. Have you tried the 8 to 10 gram test?

"Mix up 8 to 10 grams of Vitamin C, ascorbic acid or sodium ascorbate, using any of the recipes as described in previous posts. Take the full 8 to 10 gram dose at one time and the telltale loose or runny stool will show that bowel tolerance has been reached. If 70 to 80 percent of the mixture was liposomal, then only about 2 to 3 grams of it would be non-liposomal or unencapsulated and should not bring you to bowel tolerance."

 

[aragorn]

Jimme, could you specify what exactly is your concern with making lipo-C?

I'm concerned that liposomal C can't be made with an ultrasonic cleaner. Have you tried the 8 to 10 gram test?

"Mix up 8 to 10 grams of Vitamin C, ascorbic acid or sodium ascorbate, using any of the recipes as described in previous posts. Take the full 8 to 10 gram dose at one time and the telltale loose or runny stool will show that bowel tolerance has been reached. If 70 to 80 percent of the mixture was liposomal, then only about 2 to 3 grams of it would be non-liposomal or unencapsulated and should not bring you to bowel tolerance."

Okay. However, as you described in your previous post, using bowel tolerance as a "test" isn't very accurate since the tolerance can vary a lot. The test quoted by fabric sounds more interesting, perhaps this kind of scientific test (if proven that it truly represents what it says) could be more accurate?

Btw, have you had the chance to read the other 'Diet and Health' threads? Some of the information may surprise you, e.g. how eating fiber and a lot of leafy greens may not be the best thing for a human to ingest.

 

[jimme]

Jimme, could you specify what exactly is your concern with making lipo-C?

I'm concerned that liposomal C can't be made with an ultrasonic cleaner. Have you tried the 8 to 10 gram test?

"Mix up 8 to 10 grams of Vitamin C, ascorbic acid or sodium ascorbate, using any of the recipes as described in previous posts. Take the full 8 to 10 gram dose at one time and the telltale loose or runny stool will show that bowel tolerance has been reached. If 70 to 80 percent of the mixture was liposomal, then only about 2 to 3 grams of it would be non-liposomal or unencapsulated and should not bring you to bowel tolerance."

Okay. However, as you described in your previous post, using bowel tolerance as a "test" isn't very accurate since the tolerance can vary a lot. The test quoted by fabric sounds more interesting, perhaps this kind of scientific test (if proven that it truly represents what it says) could be more accurate?

Btw, have you had the chance to read the other 'Diet and Health' threads? Some of the information may surprise you, e.g. how eating fiber and a lot of leafy greens may not be the best thing for a human to ingest.

On the contrary, bowel tolerance can be very accurate if someone has taken high dose Vitamin C for many years and knows what to look for. For example, taking 8 to 10 grams in one dose will put me past bowel tolerance 100% of the time, where 2 to 3 grams will never do this. So I was simply trying to give the average person a way to test for the presence of liposomal C, and would like for people to try the test on their own to reach their own conclusions.

The statement from Mercola's office bothers me the most, since the other statements from Livon Labs and Vitamin C Foundation could fall under shameless self promotion. If Mercola can't make a liposomal product in a manufacturing environment, then I have serious doubts about others trying to make it outside of the laboratory.

Talking to people about diet is more religion than science, so I never intended to start the conversation other than to say that one type of diet might affect bowel tolerance differently than others.

Thanks for your input Aragorn. Have you taken the 8 to 10 gram test?

 

[Renaissance]

I've never bought liposomal vitamin c so I can't compare it to the branded stuff, however I have made it numerous times with an ultrasonic cleaner and have notice a significant difference in the amount I can tolerate from ordinary vitamin c. If you have questions about it jimmie, I'd suggest experimenting and seeing what you think. There's lots of info here about vitamin c, discussions on tolerance, diet, etc., so it might also be worthwhile to read through what's already been discussed to get an understanding of the knowledge base.

 

[jimme]

I've never bought liposomal vitamin c so I can't compare it to the branded stuff, however I have made it numerous times with an ultrasonic cleaner and have notice a significant difference in the amount I can tolerate from ordinary vitamin c. If you have questions about it jimmie, I'd suggest experimenting and seeing what you think. There's lots of info here about vitamin c, discussions on tolerance, diet, etc., so it might also be worthwhile to read through what's already been discussed to get an understanding of the knowledge base.

Renaissance, I have read through all 16 pages on this thread and experimented with the ultrasonic cleaner. If I can repeat the 8 to 10 gram test numerous times with the same result, then there is no longer a need for me to experiment. Likewise, if I can repeat a 2 to 3 gram test with the same result, then it's mathematically impossible for the mixture to be anywhere near 70 to 80% absorption.

Mixing with an ultrasonic cleaner or blender might increase the absorption, however this does not mean any liposomal product has been made. If you have data on the increase in absorption or evidence of a liposomal product, then please share this information with us. Have you tried the 8 to 10 gram test?

 

[Renaissance]

Renaissance, I have read through all 16 pages on this thread and experimented with the ultrasonic cleaner.

There's also this thread here on vitamin C, and again there's lots of related info in the diet and health section. I missed your post on how you have tried this out with an ultrasonic cleaner, so thanks for clarifying.

If I can repeat the 8 to 10 gram test numerous times with the same result, then there is no longer a need for me to experiment. Likewise, if I can repeat a 2 to 3 gram test with the same result, then it's mathematically impossible for the mixture to be anywhere near 70 to 80% absorption.

It does sound like your getting different results than I have. Your "8-10 gram test" is a bit arbitrary for reasons already mentioned since diet and your state of health plays such a crucial role. I've taken high does of vitamin c during different periods for several years and I generally know my limits and it is variable. I haven't had the need lately though, but when I was experimenting with it a while back I probably consumed from 10-15 grams of the liposomal c, whereas that would have been well past my tolerance in regular form.

Mixing with an ultrasonic cleaner or blender might increase the absorption, however this does not mean any liposomal product has been made. If you have data on the increase in absorption or evidence of a liposomal product, then please share this information with us. Have you tried the 8 to 10 gram test?

I only have anecdotal evidence from my experiences with it, but I too would be interested in data that indicates things one way or the other. So far, since the liposomal C that I make at home is more effective than plain jane vitamin c, I'll go with that.

 

[jimme]

Your "8-10 gram test" is a bit arbitrary for reasons already mentioned since diet and your state of health plays such a crucial role.

The 8 to 10 gram test is not arbitrary or ill-conceived.

For most people, who are actually willing to try it before passing judgement, this test is going to approach 100% accuracy, even if they need to take slightly more than 8 to 10 grams to reach bowel tolerance. The factors affecting bowel tolerance simply need to be taken into account in some cases, and a few grams added to the testing dosage.

If your results with taking high doses of Vitamin C seem variable or arbitrary, it is likely due to the time of day you are taking it, or not taking the test under controlled conditions. For example, bowel activity is usually more pronounced in the morning and early afternoon than in the evening.

So for testing purposes,

1) Take the test at the same time every day. First thing in the morning on an empty stomach is probably best, since the test will take 4 to 6 hours, and to avoid potential problems with affecting sleep.

2) Increase or decrease the dosage to find where loose stools turn to runny stools – this is your bowel tolerance.

3) Repeat the test to increase the accuracy. After seeing the same results 2, 3, or more times there should be no more need to experiment or test.

Thanks for your input and help in clarifying the issue Renaissance.

Btw, I am more interested in replicating the results of intravenous Vitamin C than taking this on a daily basis. For more information, check out Thomas Levy at peakenergy.com.

 

[hlat]

How long does liposomal vitamin C stay good?

I made a batch about 3 weeks ago, close to the end of the previous detox cycle. The original plan was to start the next cycle immediately. I've had to postpone the next cycle.

 

[Gaby]

How long does liposomal vitamin C stay good?

I made a batch about 3 weeks ago, close to the end of the previous detox cycle. The original plan was to start the next cycle immediately. I've had to postpone the next cycle.

How does the batch looks/smells to you? I would that it stays good for one or two weeks, three weeks might be already too long.

 

[fabric]

I've had mine up to 6 - 8 weeks in the fridge and it seemed to be okay. It doesn't smell and tastes just like when I first made it and it doesn't separate. I think it can prob last even longer as long its in the fridge. I also keep it in a dark amber bottle tightly sealed so that could be a factor.