High Dose Melatonin Therapy

[Ant22]

I've been on and off melatonin for the past 5 years. Lower doses didn't really do anything for me. I'm nearly 30 and live in a high EMF environment. I found 10mg was good for a while, but started going up to 10-20-30-40mg. Closer to 40mg was too much, I'd have a really deep sleep and wake up alert after 5 hours, which I thought was perfect until I started nodding off around noon. The high doses also started a period of vivid dreams that seem to have calmed down now. In fact I sometimes have vivid dreams without the melatonin now, but didn't have many in the past.

I've reduced it back to 20-30mg depending on how tired I feel when it gets towards bedtime. Sometimes if I'm feeling sleepy enough I don't take it at all.

Edit: the brand was Puritan's Pride 10mg

That's a lot for someone your age ersio. Do you take it in an oral form? Or do you take sublingually? I noticed I needed well over 5 grams in the pill form but only 2.5 mg in a sublingual lozenge. If I take more, I wake up throughout the night, my sleep is shallow and I feel restless.

Given that you take such high amounts it must be very expensive. Maybe it would be worth trying out the sublingual version to see if you need less of it this way? It could save you some money. iHerb sells it quite cheap.

 

[jess]

I've taken melatonin every day since mid 2018 and if anything, my sleep has gotten even better with time and I have more energy the following day. What I noticed is that if I don't take it at my usual time I get super sleepy around that time anyway.

I actually wonder if melatonin supplementation trains the body that there's a certain amount of melatonin in the system at a specific time, and when it doesn't come the body just produces it itself? It's a far shot, maybe people who supplemented it for a longer period and then stopped could confirm difficulties sleeping when they discontinued melatonin?

There were a few occasions when I didn't take melatonin, for example, I had a short night due to a plane journey the following day, or I simply forgot, and I didn't have trouble falling asleep. I haven't skipped melatonin for a few consecutive nights so it's hard to say if I'd notice an issue, but to make sure I don't have to worry about it I have a supply for a couple fo years ahead

Hi Ant22, I appreciate your comments, yes!! that sounds great to have a good amount of melatonin in storage for at least a year or more....

 

[Jono]

That's a lot for someone your age ersio. Do you take it in an oral form? Or do you take sublingually? I noticed I needed well over 5 grams in the pill form but only 2.5 mg in a sublingual lozenge. If I take more, I wake up throughout the night, my sleep is shallow and I feel restless.

Given that you take such high amounts it must be very expensive. Maybe it would be worth trying out the sublingual version to see if you need less of it this way? It could save you some money. iHerb sells it quite cheap.

I add the powder into water and drink it. I tried the Puritan's Pride sublingual drops at one point but didn't notice any difference, in fact it was probably weaker and not worth it for me. This one:


I found at the bottom of the bottle a bit of the same powder from the capsules half mixed up with the liquid, so I suspect (with this brand) it was simply mixed together with some sort of juice.

Did you mean mg in the pill form? I'm going to buy it in powder to keep costs down a bit, the Puritan's Pride capsules are quite expensive.

As for your previous post, I sometimes forget to take it and still feel sleepy - didn't have any sleep issues when missing a dose. I've had breaks for up to a few months at time, but did find it beneficial to just keep a supply around and use when needed.

If I use blue light blockers, red light bulbs at night, and get some morning sunlight I don't really need it either. Probably wouldn't need it at all in a low EMF/no blue light environment.

 

[Heather]

Hi Heather

Thank you for pointing out the zeolite. I think Dr. Klinghardt means the impurities that are often associated with the breakdown. I found a German dealer and bought a 25 kg container. Regular laboratory analysis is visible on the retailer's website. Serious dealers always provide an analysis on request.

I use Piping Rock's melatonin (10mg). I have found that the liposomal form makes sense for vitamin C, as higher amounts can be taken orally here. Minerals are also available in this form and I think the bio availability is significantly improved here. For melatonin, the form of a normal tablet or sublingual is enough for me. I have the feeling to take it very well.

If you've been using liposomal melatonin, chances are you've taken a higher dose and the rash was a sign of toxin release. I think the most important is the binding of toxins and good support for the liver (alpha lipoic acid, milk thistle), the kidneys (salt protocol) and the intestines (zeolite, probiotics). But that applies to all forms of detoxification.

Thanks again, Kari Baba.

If it wouldn't be too much of an inconvenience, could you specify exact amounts, time of day you take these, and brand names you like for this protocol? Since it's been working so well for you maybe having the entire scenario could be of help to others, including myself (!)

 

[Ant22]

Did you mean mg in the pill form? I'm going to buy it in powder to keep costs down a bit, the Puritan's Pride capsules are quite expensive.

Yes ersio, when I referred to oral supplementation I meant pills to swallow.

The sublingual ones I take are lozenges and not drops. They stay in the mouth for longer than drops would, as it takes a few minutes for them to dissolve. This may impact on how well they work, as once swallowed, melatonin seems to be absorbed less effectively. I switched to sublingual lozenges because I saw testimonials here on the forum that said the sublingual form was more effective than pills. Here are the ones I buy.

 

[Persephone]

Hi Andrian, thank you so much for answering, I had that question because the packaging of the melatonin says to take it "occasionally" or no more than 14 days in a row.

I don't know what form you took but I didn't respond well to melatonin in pills. It either didn't do anything or it gave me poor sleep. But ever since I switched to sublingual lozenges I've been getting very good results.

Thank you all for your comments. I also read on my melatonin box that I should not take more than one pill a day (1.9 mg) and I complied with this dose for several months, but without any obvious benefits on the quality of my sleep. So I will try to take a little more and eventually switch to sublingual lozenges.

 

[Ant22]

Thank you all for your comments. I also read on my melatonin box that I should not take more than one pill a day (1.9 mg) and I complied with this dose for several months, but without any obvious benefits on the quality of my sleep. So I will try to take a little more and eventually switch to sublingual lozenges.

Hi Persephone, it is often the case that the dosage on the box/bottle is there for legal reasons as opposed to health ones. Lower dosages can be sold over the counter while higher ones require prescription. It may be a good idea to experiment a little, you may need a smaller dose than one pill, or more than one pill.

It's the same with food and expiry dates. There's a legal limit of how long the expiry date can be. I recently opened a jar of meat pate that "expired" in the summer of 2019 and it was perfectly fine to eat.

My iodine bottle says it's for external use only and I took it internally daily for 5 years, including high doses for longer periods of time and I was fine.

This meme comes to mind

 

[Ant22]

Thank you all for your comments. I also read on my melatonin box that I should not take more than one pill a day (1.9 mg) and I complied with this dose for several months, but without any obvious benefits on the quality of my sleep. So I will try to take a little more and eventually switch to sublingual lozenges.

I found a few posts in the main 'Melatonin' thread (this was was intended for the high dose melatonin therapy) where forum members said they found the sublingual version to be better:

It's kind of like vitamin C, you find your right dose by experimenting for tolerance. Also, sublingual is way better than a pill you swallow.

If you have no trouble sleeping at the right hours, for the right length of time, you don't need it.

Sublingual melatonin works better for me than the pill form. I had to take 10mg of pill form melatonin to achieve the same results as 3mg sublingual melatonin (and I am not a big guy :)). Perhaps try that?

As well, do you use GABA or 5HTP in combination with melatonin? If you are unfamiliar with these, try using the search function for more information here on the Forum.

FWIW, I've taken both capsule and sublingual forms and have much faster and better results with the sublingual version. I'm able to take half as much of sublingual as I would need of capsule formula and get the same results.

That said, there's no one-size-fits-all solution as not everyone responded well to the sublingual form:

Ya know, I don't know why, but the sublingual form does absolutely nothing for me. I've found that the Source Time-Released 3mg (I have to take two of them) does the trick for me and helps me sleep for much longer than taking the ones that aren't time-release. I've had a lot of problems with not being able to go to sleep, or going to sleep but waking up after an hour or so and not being able to go back to sleep. I don't have these problems (98% of the time) with this melatonin product.

It may be useful to go through the main Melatonin thread for more insight and testimonials.

 

[SlipNet]

I've got back onto melatonin in the last week and can testify to the dream recollection thing, just a series of very vivid and odd dreams, often involving old friends and ex girlfriends, really odd to experience because these are people I have no contact with nowadays. What got me started was I was finding it very difficult to get off to sleep, taking about 3-4 hrs of twisting and turning, very frustrating. I think I'll order some more because I've found the sleeping easier this last week, and I've found myself feeling more energetic upon waking. I'd like to understand why I'm having dreams involving people I've not laid eyes on in 15 years though, I suppose there's a lot of processing of old emotions still going on in my subconscious mind.

 

[Kari Baba]

Thanks again, Kari Baba.

If it wouldn't be too much of an inconvenience, could you specify exact amounts, time of day you take these, and brand names you like for this protocol? Since it's been working so well for you maybe having the entire scenario could be of help to others, including myself (!)

I can tell you what I'm taking:

In the morning before breakfast:

• Salt water
• 300mg alpha lipoic acid
• 1 teaspoon of zeolite dissolved in water
• 3 grams of vitamin C + 500mg of magnesium citrate dissolved in water

Noon:

50mg zinc

Half an hour before going to bed:

Zeolite, 300mg Alpha Lipoic Acid and 100mg Melatonin

I have provided the products with the links. However, I am very flexible and also change frequently. Since I've also been doing the iodine protocol since February, I also take all associated cofactors. I am currently at 25mg iodine per day and will continue to do so.

Unfortunately, zeolite is usually very expensive, so I bought a 25kg container and fill it myself. The quality is very good and the laboratory report can be downloaded.

 

[Heather]

I can tell you what I'm taking:

In the morning before breakfast:

• Salt water
• 300mg alpha lipoic acid
• 1 teaspoon of zeolite dissolved in water
• 3 grams of vitamin C + 500mg of magnesium citrate dissolved in water

Noon:

50mg zinc

Half an hour before going to bed:

Zeolite, 300mg Alpha Lipoic Acid and 100mg Melatonin

I have provided the products with the links. However, I am very flexible and also change frequently. Since I've also been doing the iodine protocol since February, I also take all associated cofactors. I am currently at 25mg iodine per day and will continue to do so.

Unfortunately, zeolite is usually very expensive, so I bought a 25kg container and fill it myself. The quality is very good and the laboratory report can be downloaded.

Thanks so much, Kari Baba.

I know Klinghardt has said that one can use Chlorella Pyrenoidosa* (in the proper amount, not too little) OR zeolite. In fact, I believe he suggested zeolite for those who can't stomach the chlorella. But, either/or, at any rate, as effective binders.

*BioPure offers this product.

 

[Oxajil]

As melatonin helps with sleeping better, I thought I'd post this here. An interesting paper recently published:

Losing Control: Sleep Deprivation Impairs the Suppression of Unwanted Thoughts

Unwanted memories often enter conscious awareness when individuals confront reminders. People vary widely in their talents at suppressing such memory intrusions; however, the factors that govern suppression ability are poorly understood. We tested the hypothesis that successful memory control requires sleep. Following overnight sleep or total sleep deprivation, participants attempted to suppress intrusions of emotionally negative and neutral scenes when confronted with reminders. The sleep-deprived group experienced significantly more intrusions (unsuccessful suppressions) than the sleep group. Deficient control over intrusive thoughts had consequences: Whereas in rested participants suppression reduced behavioral and psychophysiological indices of negative affect for aversive memories, it had no such salutary effect for sleep-deprived participants. Our findings raise the possibility that sleep deprivation disrupts prefrontal control over medial temporal lobe structures that support memory and emotion. These data point to an important role of sleep disturbance in maintaining and exacerbating psychiatric conditions characterized by persistent, unwanted thoughts.

In a nutshell, sleeping well plays a factor in being able to control intrusive thoughts.

 

[SevenFeathers]

Earth Clinic has a new article posted about melatonin, with good links to studies. It's at Melatonin for Stroke Recovery and Prevention

 

[Oxajil]

Another interesting recent study below. In short: Melatonin is converted to a substance called AFMK and then to a substance called AMK in the brain. The researchers found that AMK appeared to be the most effective for memory improvement in mice. Researchers say this could also apply to people. Considering some data shared in this thread, I'd say this is possible.

The group of researchers at TMDU were curious about melatonin's metabolites, the molecules that melatonin is broken down into after entering the body. "We know that melatonin is converted into N1-acetyl-N2-formyl-5-methoxykynuramine (AFMK) and N1-acetyl-5-methoxykynuramine (AMK) in the brain," explains Hattori, "and we suspected that they might promote cognition." To test their hypothesis, the researchers familiarized mice to objects and gave them doses of melatonin and the two metabolites 1 hour later. Then, they tested their memory the next day. They found that memory improved after treatment, and that AMK was the most effective. All three accumulated in the hippocampal region of the brain, a region important for turning experiences into memories.

For young mice, exposure to an object three times in a day is enough for it to be remembered the next day on the novel object recognition task. In contrast, older mice behave as if both objects are new and unfamiliar, a sign of cognitive decline. However, one dose of AMK 15 min after a single exposure to an object, and older mice were able to remember the objects up to 4 days later.

Lastly, the researchers found that long-term memory formation could not be enhanced after blocking melatonin from being converted into AMK in the brain. "We have shown that melatonin's metabolite AMK can facilitate memory formation in all ages of mice," says Hattori. "Its effect on older mice is particularly encouraging and we are hopeful that future studies will show similar effects in older people. If this happens, AMK therapy could eventually be used to reduce the severity of Mild Cognitive Impairment and its potential conversion to Alzheimer's disease."

Source of article
Paper

 

[SlipNet]

I've had to bookmark this thread after spending most of this week ruminating from the latest C's session, which was gripping as always. Getting "the thinks", as I call them, is a state that can consume your waking mind just prior to getting into bed late at night ready for sleep. This causes me a twofold problem; anti-social sleeping patterns and missed vitamin d from being out and about in daylight hours. I am a hopeless night owl, always have been. By age 11 I was regularly up till 3am at night, either watching hammer horror films or watching south american football, which would always be on after midnight. A couple of my mates in school were the same, and we formed a kind of secret club where only true initiates were welcome. So funny looking back!

So I've just taken a delivery of my order before christmas, of over a years worth of melatonin (480 3mg tablets), it finally arrived after a 6 week wait. I'm going to hopefully use the melatonin to help turn me more into a morning person. I think 3mg is a fine dosage for a person who can get caught up in thought patterns for 3hrs a night prior to falling asleep. My other plan is to put reading down for the last 2 hrs of waking time late at night. Listen to an album or watch a dvd instead, see if there's any difference. I just thought "well hey, the C's have said this is one big school for infinite lessons, so let's just experiment more, with guidelines.". Sounds like a good plan to me, and I'll use my morning time better, reading both books and on sott/forum. I'm out of work at the moment and need a more driven like approach to my days. So here goes, I'll be beginning this new regime tonight and I plan to awaken 2hrs rearlier than usual, until eventually I'm a fully fledged morning person for the first time in 35 years.

This is going to be an interesting struggle I think. I've been frustrated by my lack of impetus in recent times. I've not been idle though. I've drawn out a synopsis for 30-odd short stories, which I'm beginning to flesh out. It's been a rewarding hobby in fact, I've been developed these ideas over the last 5-6 years or so. The novelist Will Self has advised prospective writers to find their golden hours somewhere between 4am and 12pm. It's up to you how you find them. He gave us good advice in Uni back in 1996, plus he's a sharp thinker. So I'm looking to try new things in my life, a kind of strategic re-arrangement. Here's hoping the melatonin helps me out a bit here, cause I have the seeds of a kind of uptight insomnia brewing at the moment, and I'm not satisfied with my efforts of late.

Only I can change things, and if I fail, then fail better than before...