Homeland War

[Laura]

It is freaking unbelievable that all this could have happened right under everyone's nose, in a so-called modern time, and the whole rest of the world just blunders on in ignorance.



What am I saying? It's happening right now in Israel.

 

[Scottie]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Croatian_War_of_Independence

This is what we are talking about for those who don't know.

Interesting... At the same time, in Slovenia you had the Ten Day War:

The Ten-Day War (Slovene: desetdnevna vojna) or the Slovenian Independence War (slovenska osamosvojitvena vojna), also the Weekend War (vikend-vojna)[5] was a civil war in Yugoslavia that followed the Slovenian declaration of independence on 25 June 1991.[6] It was fought between the Slovenian Territorial Defence (Slovene: Teritorialna obramba Republike Slovenije) and the Yugoslav People's Army (YPA) in 1991, after Slovenia declared its independence. It lasted from 27 June 1991 until 7 July 1991, when the Brijuni Accords were signed.

Of course, depending on what you read, they make it sound like Croatia invaded Slovenia. Somehow, I think all this chaos and war had very little to do with Serb vs Croat, or Croat vs Slovenian, or anything else... except maybe psychopaths + CIA vs. the entire region!

 

[Zadius Sky]

Interesting... At the same time, in Slovenia you had the Ten Day War:

Hmm...there's another war during that time as well, involving Croatia: Croat–Bosniak War

The Croat–Bosniak War was a conflict between the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina and the self-proclaimed Croatian Community of Herzeg-Bosnia supported by the Republic of Croatia, that lasted from June 19, 1992 – February 23, 1994, caused by the Karađorđevo and Graz agreements and the previously-unified Croat forces turning on the Bosniaks. The ICTY effectively determined the war's nature to be international between Croatia and Bosnia and Herzegovina in numerous verdicts against Croat political and military leaders. The Croat-Bosniak war is often referred to as the war in a war because it was part of the larger Bosnian War.

 

[grini]

Here is something about Gotovina that we are talking about _http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ante_Gotovina

It is amazing how so many Serbs today still don't accept they were the aggressors, no mater who or which country/organization was behind all of it...And that if you attack someone you should expect them to defend themselves.
Talking about mainstream media...

Yes it was very emotional reaction from vast majority of Croats, hence it is interesting how general Gotovina made his first statement on welcome in Zageb on Friday:"The war is over - we must concentrate on future" or something similar in this context - so no sign of manipulation for now. And if he would try something like that - i will find it very repulsive - and pretty sure that i won't be the only one.

FWIW I personally believe general Gotovina was an honest soldier who was caught up and sacrificed in political games. Atrocities were committed by paramilitary formations on both sides, hardly ever by official Croatian Army or Yugoslav Army. What he said is the key, trying to put the blame on one side or another will not contribute very much to peaceful coexistence of Croats and Serbs in the future.

Does anyone remember when was EU membership referendum this year? Gotovina sent from the Hague a message to the Croatian public, through his attorneys. Here is a rough translated message:

I call on all citizens of the Croatian to go out on Sunday, January 22, 2012 on a referendum and vote according to their own conscience. Hereby I want to announce that I will vote tomorrow in The Hague for Croatian accession to the European Union - where Croatia and civilization historically belongs, a referendum is only formally confirmed. Croatia's place in the European Union.

I heard that on the radio while I was washing the dishes and I thought that was so pathetic, to get votes for EU. I think he is a perfect soldier, to do what they told him to do and be part of this political games. He is just another sweet talking puppet. He also said he will now stay in politics. Well, we shall see his actions.

 

[Zadius Sky]

Does anyone remember when was EU membership referendum this year?

Here's the bit on that: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Croatian_European_Union_membership_referendum,_2012

A referendum on the EU accession of the Republic of Croatia was held on 22 January 2012. Croatia finished accession (membership) negotiations on 30 June 2011 and signed the Treaty of Accession on 9 December 2011, setting it on course to become the bloc's 28th member state. The Constitution of Croatia requires that a binding referendum be held on any political union reducing national sovereignty, such as via European Union membership. On 23 December 2011 the Croatian Parliament made a preliminary decision on EU accession and determined that the referendum would be held on 22 January 2012. The 2012 Croatian EU accession referendum was the first referendum held in Croatia since the Croatian independence referendum held more than 20 years earlier, in 1991.

The Croatian EU accession referendum campaign officially began on 3 January 2012; a yes vote was supported by both the political parties in government and the larger opposition parties in Croatia. The largest parties' joint support of EU membership existed since 2005, when the Alliance for Europe (Croatian: Savez za Europu) was set up as an informal alliance aimed at achieving membership as a strategic goal of Croatian foreign policy. Opposition to Croatian EU accession was voiced by non-parliamentary parties only. The pro-membership and informational campaign – which included television promotional videos, addresses by leading government and opposition politicians, and information booklets mailed to every household in Croatia – was announced to have cost 4.8 million kuna (c. €640,000). Opinion polling was regularly carried out by three different agencies; since May 2011, percentages supporting EU membership ranged between 55% and 63%. The Croatian State Election Committee was in charge of vote organization, ballot counting and result publication.

The EU accession referendum passed with 66.27% votes cast in support, 33.13% against the proposed joining of the EU and 0.60% invalid or blank votes; it also passed in all Croatian counties. The greatest support for the referendum was recorded in Međimurje and Brod-Posavina counties, at 75.73% and 72.61% respectively. The lowest support for EU accession was recorded in Dubrovnik-Neretva County, where 42.22% of votes were cast against the proposal. The average official turnout for the referendum was 43.51%; the highest official turnouts were recorded in the city of Zagreb and in Varaždin County at 55.13% and 53.66% respectively. The result was binding on the Croatian Parliament; as a consequence, it ratified the accession treaty on 9 March 2012. The outcome was welcomed by all political parties represented in Croatia's parliament; some right-wing politicians objected to the low turnout and what they consider a loss of independence.

 

[Z...]

... except maybe psychopaths + CIA vs. the entire region!

Exactly, we can spend days on end arguing who is bigger villain and who did more atrocities. The bottom line is as long as people blindly identify with religious and national division they will always be an easy victim for psychopaths. That has been the case in Balkans since the ancient times.

 

[Z...]

The Croat–Bosniak War was a conflict between the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina and the self-proclaimed Croatian Community of Herzeg-Bosnia supported by the Republic of Croatia, that lasted from June 19, 1992 – February 23, 1994, caused by the Karađorđevo and Graz agreements and the previously-unified Croat forces turning on the Bosniaks. The ICTY effectively determined the war's nature to be international between Croatia and Bosnia and Herzegovina in numerous verdicts against Croat political and military leaders. The Croat-Bosniak war is often referred to as the war in a war because it was part of the larger Bosnian War.

This serves as a perfect illustration how complicated the whole Yugoslav mess was.
Serbs in Croatia essentially did the same thing as Croats in Bosnia yet they were called terrorists and aggressors by the same people who supported Bosnian Croat struggle for independence. Crazy eh?

 

[Regulattor]

Interesting... At the same time, in Slovenia you had the Ten Day War:
...

Of course, depending on what you read, they make it sound like Croatia invaded Slovenia. Somehow, I think all this chaos and war had very little to do with Serb vs Croat, or Croat vs Slovenian, or anything else... except maybe psychopaths + CIA vs. the entire region!

Hmm...there's another war during that time as well, involving Croatia: Croat–Bosniak War

The Croat–Bosniak War was a conflict between the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina and the self-proclaimed Croatian Community of Herzeg-Bosnia supported by the Republic of Croatia, that lasted from June 19, 1992 – February 23, 1994, caused by the Karađorđevo and Graz agreements and the previously-unified Croat forces turning on the Bosniaks. The ICTY effectively determined the war's nature to be international between Croatia and Bosnia and Herzegovina in numerous verdicts against Croat political and military leaders. The Croat-Bosniak war is often referred to as the war in a war because it was part of the larger Bosnian War.

I don't think that Balkan wars from 1990's should be observed as separate events. Looking at today's Syrian bloodshed, many things seeing there I can now recognize taking place over Balkans. Complete Balkan drama was staged by foreign agencies and executed by local right wing radicals on all sides. It was deliberate action by very malignant forces to bring suffering and pain in order to achieve desired goals. Unfortunately people from this region as always I suppose, got easily hooked on! That's why without clear and thoroughly education regarding psychopathy this things will repeat itself again and again.

Does anyone remember when was EU membership referendum this year?

Here's the bit on that: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Croatian_European_Union_membership_referendum,_2012

A referendum on the EU accession of the Republic of Croatia was held on 22 January 2012. Croatia finished accession (membership) negotiations on 30 June 2011 and signed the Treaty of Accession on 9 December 2011, setting it on course to become the bloc's 28th member state. The Constitution of Croatia requires that a binding referendum be held on any political union reducing national sovereignty, such as via European Union membership. On 23 December 2011 the Croatian Parliament made a preliminary decision on EU accession and determined that the referendum would be held on 22 January 2012. The 2012 Croatian EU accession referendum was the first referendum held in Croatia since the Croatian independence referendum held more than 20 years earlier, in 1991.

The Croatian EU accession referendum campaign officially began on 3 January 2012; a yes vote was supported by both the political parties in government and the larger opposition parties in Croatia. The largest parties' joint support of EU membership existed since 2005, when the Alliance for Europe (Croatian: Savez za Europu) was set up as an informal alliance aimed at achieving membership as a strategic goal of Croatian foreign policy. Opposition to Croatian EU accession was voiced by non-parliamentary parties only. The pro-membership and informational campaign – which included television promotional videos, addresses by leading government and opposition politicians, and information booklets mailed to every household in Croatia – was announced to have cost 4.8 million kuna (c. €640,000). Opinion polling was regularly carried out by three different agencies; since May 2011, percentages supporting EU membership ranged between 55% and 63%. The Croatian State Election Committee was in charge of vote organization, ballot counting and result publication.

The EU accession referendum passed with 66.27% votes cast in support, 33.13% against the proposed joining of the EU and 0.60% invalid or blank votes; it also passed in all Croatian counties. The greatest support for the referendum was recorded in Međimurje and Brod-Posavina counties, at 75.73% and 72.61% respectively. The lowest support for EU accession was recorded in Dubrovnik-Neretva County, where 42.22% of votes were cast against the proposal. The average official turnout for the referendum was 43.51%; the highest official turnouts were recorded in the city of Zagreb and in Varaždin County at 55.13% and 53.66% respectively. The result was binding on the Croatian Parliament; as a consequence, it ratified the accession treaty on 9 March 2012. The outcome was welcomed by all political parties represented in Croatia's parliament; some right-wing politicians objected to the low turnout and what they consider a loss of independence.

One thing missing here is that out of 4.504.765 registered voters, only 1.299.008 voted FOR joining EU (66,27% of turnout votes), that's only 28,84% of registered voters. If it was real democracy here not only this referendum would fail, but EU institutions shouldn't recognize this result with such a low support! And when you have this clear sign of everything but democracy, you rightfully expect some kind of public reaction, but there isn't any, nor here, nor from EU administration or most "democratic" West European Countries! I mean if this is not enough to raise antidemocracy alarm I don't know what is!?!

 

[Persej]

It is also interesting how how Veselin Šljivančanin commented this outcome:

_http://www.slobodnaevropa.org/archive/news/20121118/500/500.html?id=24774227

In this article Šljivancanin is approving the verdict - which is totally opposite from other reactions from Serbia. One sentence is quite significant to me:

You can think of Croats whatever you want, but they taught us a lesson in dignity and we should learn from them"

You should quote the entire paragraph:

"If the international community thinks that so many exiled people is not a crime, the generals are not guilty for that! They, like us, were given assignments by the country that they have honorably carried out. It's just that their country stood behind them, and ours are in constant fear what other people will say. You can think of Croats whatever you want, but they taught us a lesson in dignity and we should learn from them."

What he wanted to say is that Serbs should like Croats supports their generals no matter what crimes they committed in the war because generals were just following their orders. And because Šljivančanin is general himself it is no wonder why he is approving the verdict.

 

[Z...]

after all the following quote is attributed to Henry Kissinger one of the key players of NWO :
“Military men are dumb, stupid animals to be used as pawns for foreign policy.”

nuff said

 

[aelyrsenn]

It is freaking unbelievable that all this could have happened right under everyone's nose, in a so-called modern time, and the whole rest of the world just blunders on in ignorance.

Maybe if Balkan had more oil

 

[Yozilla]

You should quote the entire paragraph:

"If the international community thinks that so many exiled people is not a crime, the generals are not guilty for that! They, like us, were given assignments by the country that they have honorably carried out. It's just that their country stood behind them, and ours are in constant fear what other people will say. You can think of Croats whatever you want, but they taught us a lesson in dignity and we should learn from them."

What he wanted to say is that Serbs should like Croats supports their generals no matter what crimes they committed in the war because generals were just following their orders. And because Šljivančanin is general himself it is no wonder why he is approving the verdict.

Thank you for translating article in total. I understood as he was referring to "misbehavior" at court of accused Serbs, starting with Milošević than Šešelj, Karadžić and general Mladić (absolute sickos - just my impression). Unlike them generals Gotovina and Markač endured the whole process (7+ years) with patience and no incident at all. Milošević was role model for destructive psychopaths, speaking of who emerged suddenly in great numbers in the beginning of 90's in ex YU. "First" wave took prominent positions in politics and war mongering while "second wave" psychos were overtaking (aka pillaging) economic resources on all sides. Like coordinated from higher (STS) density? They were supported by large number of authoritarians bred in ex-Yu One Party socialistic system - ruled only by "communists" and they just jumped from one tit (TITO ) to another...

Talking about dignity - we had none after years of economic distraction and that was especially worsen after first Trial Judgement for our generals when parties start accusing one another of national high treason and that was keeping economic troubles suppressed (such a coincidence?). And EU was blackmailing us with Hague issue and many others, they were playing strictness with our despair to join the "better company". And we also had/have a number of grand psychopaths and the most recent example is ex Prime minister of Cryatia Ivo Sanader (oh, you should see him in action - all handsome, self-confident, so eloquent an charming, polyglot and beloved by his bureaucratic EU colleagues - Psychopath par exemple - with big&bold P), he was the one who caught and extradited general Gotovina to High Court for War Crimes in Hague. And the cruel (happy for us!) twist of destiny is that he is facing long prison term sentence before Croatian court for corruption as he is accused for corruption regarding scandals in national gas and oil company. The verdict is expected to be sentenced tomorrow and that could be the day (Yeah) for almost all of us - one in and one out... Sorry if noising

Yozilla D'monster

 

[Persej]

Ex-chief prosecutor denounces Hague ruling

Former Chief Hague Prosecutor Carla Del Ponte has said that the acquittal of Croatian generals Ante Gotovina and Mladen Markač "is not justice".

The Hague released Gotovina and Markač on appeal on Friday. They were originally sentenced to 24 and 18 years in prison for crimes against Croatia's ethnic Serbs during and after Operation Storm in 1995.

In an interview for the Belgrade-based tabloid Blic, Del Ponte said that she was "shocked" by the trial's outcome:

"I was very surprised and stupefied. It is completely incredible what happened after the sentence of 24 years in prison for Gotovina. Unbelievable. I cannot accept it. I feel full solidarity with the Serb victims of the crime. The crime, that we backed up with hard evidence."

She added that she "guessed that the facts were probably interpreted in a different manner".

Del Ponte stated she had not read the argumentation behind the decision, but that she opposed it completely, and "could not see how it could be accepted".

"The Serbian government and Serbs cannot accept such a verdict, and I agree fully with what I heard them say on televisoin. It is clear a crime was committed - and the question now is, who committed it".

"We will see what will happen next, but this certainly is not justice," the former Swiss and Hague prosecutor said.

The crime was proven and the verdict shows it, she said. The evidence is there, but it was perhaps interpreted differently, Del Ponte continued, adding that it was unacceptable either way. The decision is, however, final and nothing further can be done, she said, and added that the tribunal's credibility was undermined by the ruling.

She added that she expected the verdict regarding former KLA leader and ethnic Albanian politician from Kosovo Ramush Haradinaj to be delivered in 15 days, and expressed her fear that "the same thing could happen in that case as well".

Suspicion is emerging that the verdict was not influenced by evidence, but by politics, lobbying money, or something else not related to the court, Del Ponte concluded.

Reacting to her interview on Tuesday, Gotovina's defense lawyer Luka Mištić announced that he would "report the former chief prosecutor to the Swiss Bar Association". According to the lawyer, this complaint against her would be based on "ethical grounds".

_http://www.b92.net/eng/news/politics-article.php?yyyy=2012&mm=11&dd=20&nav_id=83250

Hague judge says justice has not been served

Member of the Hague Tribunal’s Appeals Chamber Fausto Pocar has assessed that the acquittal of two Croat generals is “contrary to any sense of justice”.

The Italian judge did not vote for the acquittal of Croat Generals Ante Gotovina and Mladen Markač on Friday.

“I do not believe that justice has been served when you overturn the guilty verdict, which the initial trial chamber did not make lightly which shows a 1,300-page analysis, with only several paragraphs, without a careful consideration of the documents and an appropriate explanation,” Pocar said.

The Appeals Chamber acquitted Gotovina and Markač with a majority of three votes to two of almost all charges for the expulsion of Serbs from Knin Krajina and other crimes during and after the Operation Storm in the summer of 1995.

The Appeals Chamber therefore overturned the initial verdict which sentenced Gotovina to 24 and Markač to 18 years in prison for crimes against Serb civilians.

“I am fundamentally opposed to the entire verdict in the appeal process which is contrary to any sense of justice,” Pocar stressed.

Another member of the Appeals Chamber, Carmel Agius of Malta, also strongly opposed the acquittal.

The decision to acquit the two Croat generals was made by Judges Theodor Meron of the U.S., Patrick Robinson of Jamaica and Mehmet Guney of Turkey.

Pocar pointed to “numerous mistakes and wrong constructions in the decision-making of the majority of the judges” and added that the verdict was based on a misinterpretation of conclusions made by the initial trial chamber and on the violation of the court practice and standards in the appeal process.

According to Pocar and Agius, most of the judges were quick to neglect and reject a large part of the extensive evidence material that the initial verdict was based on.

Pocar stressed that the court had determined at the original trial that transcripts of former Croatian President Franjo Tuđman's Brioni meeting with the top military and police officials showed that the Croat officials did not have the protection of the Serb civilians in mind.

He added that it had been confirmed several weeks after the Operation Storm, when Tuđman compared the Serbs with “cancer that is spreading” and said that “they (Serbs) did not even have time to take their dirty money and dirty laundry”.

“Most of them (judges) failed to show where the first trial chamber made a mistake in determining that the joint criminal enterprise did exist,” the Italian judge said.

Agius said that the verdict was based on a “narrow, artificial, deficient, confucing and problematic” approach which led to “incorrect results”.

_http://www.b92.net/eng/news/politics-article.php?yyyy=2012&mm=11&dd=17&nav_id=83206

Does this sound to you like a fair trial?

 

[aelyrsenn]

Does this sound to you like a fair trial?

Obviously its not a fair trial,just look at the small sentence of Šljivančanin...
So we should all put it behind, make peace with it,because there won't be justice for any of the criminals still walking free around us..
Guess am so naive, homeland war was over almost 20 years ago, WWII more than 60 and here people still argue about who's side were their grandpas fought, who was 'ustaša' and who was 'partizan'...

 

[Z...]

a heart felt voice of sanity from Croatia, perhaps this excellent analysis could be carried on SOTT of course after heavy editing as I am translating in haste:

http://civilka.wordpress.com/2012/11/19/vukovar-i-razderana-djevojka/

Vukovar and Mutilated Girl
No, I am not happy these days. I am not euphoric neither. I am sad, defeated and I have a knot in my belly. Why, for haven's sake, has massive triumphant feeling poured across the streets of Croatia, since Friday 16th. The reason for these celebrations is war, isnt it? And war is evil. War brings casualties on both sides of the trench, takes lives and leaves the scars on survivors. Acquitting verdict by Hag War Crimes Tribunal will surely soothe the wounds of 7 year incarceration for Gotovina and Markac in Hague jail, where they were paying for someone else' s bill, surely their families are satisfied. When their private happiness settles down there will be plenty of time for them for soul searching, to question if they did enough to stop the crimes of petty low lives and vultures.

I am sure these thoughts kept them awake during long prison nights. Thoughts that plague all of us who didnt want war but until this very day we are not sure if we did everything to stop it. Why were the schools in Croatia closed on Friday, and even little children induced into national euphoria? What they were thousands across Croatian squares cheering for? And why does it chill my heart that uniforms had to be taken out of the closet for this occasion? Defeating fact- that we suffered yet another war 17 years ago demands at least solemn compassion for this horrible period of our lives. Lives of people on all the corners of the country once called Yugoslavia. Compassion for thousands of Croatian military and civil victims, deceased, disabled and displaced, lost homes and thorn families. Surely a compassion for those who were on the other side of the trigger, for even when you kill in self defense you have killed a man. This fact is not the reason for celebration but for queasiness. Otherwise self defense becomes self deceit. After all, those responsible for thousands of killed, exiled and humiliated Serbian civilians should be brought to justice. Frail old people form Varivode or Grubor didn't just disappear, they were crushed by the boot of the legitimate liberators which somehow got turned into vampiric illegitimate scum. I reiterate, murders, looting and arson that occurred in the aftermath of the Operation Storm in 1995 was never sanctioned by Croatian government.

Therefore let us hush the triumphant cheers, put our heads down and lets be silent for a day or two, in memory of all deceased, disappeared and downtrodden people.
Particularly I cannot understand this exhalation and celebration of Croatia as attained dream of happiness, after all these years of sobering reality. After complete destruction of all societal institutions. When more the 300, 000 people is jobless and is staggering in poverty, what will they eat- national flags? This grinding of the individual , the robbery and crushing of humanity has been going on for last 20 years. How come those that were deceived forgot so quickly that national elites threw them in the bloodshed to begin with, so that they can easily plunder their resources. Timeless are the verses by poet Branko Miljkovic who speaks about elusive nature of the freedom " Will the freedom sing as beautiful , as downtrodden sang about the freedom".
While some foolishly believed they were defending the freedom of their fields, their books, their wives and their way of living, others used the same freedom for power struggles, black market and moving into fancy villas in Zagreb and Belgrade. What sort of innocence we speak when we hear the echo of the words of late Croatian president about being grateful that his wife is not a Jew or a Serb. Or while he is proficiently doodling the division of Bosnia on paper napkins during high profile meetings , or discussing with Milosevic the "humane dislocation of people by inhumane means" and profit margin on the cargo of oil for the tanks surrounding Vukovar. Could this city after being sacrificed on the altar of our new homeland, live to see anything else but commemorative celebrations on every 18th of November ( you know while the defense of the city cried on the only remaining telephone line to the capital about the few thousands of children needing to be evacuated from Vukovar hell, president Tudjman sweaty between two tennis game sets said " no, but do fax it") . This is the city with the highest costs of living in today's Croatia. After rich multiculturalism, today this is the place of segregated schools, childhood poisoned with parental hatreds, slow rebuilding ( due to corruption and stealing) city that staggers attempting to reclaim its former status. After all this city will be properly mourned only when we remember thousands of misfortune boys drafted as Yugoslav Army soldiers, those without rich parents who could evacuate them to the UK, who left their bodies in the mud of the siege of Vukovar.

And while on last Friday city of Split was high on rhythms courtesy of surprise guest Marko Perkovic Thompson ( wait, isn't this the same performer which readily lifts his arm shouting Croatian equivalent of Sieg Heil salute, but is not ready to pay his taxes) during the same drunken night of national pathos euphoria, a 20 year old raped and severely mutilated girl was admitted at local emergency room. She woke up from coma after lengthy surgery but she is still critical. If she is lucky to survive, she will be scarred for life both physically and mentally. Rapist was jailed, but neither media nor the police would say anything about other 4 individuals who were present as passive observers at the same "party" where this incident took place.

So for heavens sake, let us not evoke metaphors about "heavenly happiness" which descended from "merciful heavens on Croatia" so lightly, and milk and honey which now began to flow taking this country straight to heavens. Because this very mutilated and humiliated body of poor girl is the most precise metaphor of the reality we are in at the present moment. If I had children I am not sure if I would be able to explain about good and evil, and if I could protect them from the future that waits for us.