How are you feeling?

[iamthatis]

Interesting coincidence - I've been thinking about my own rejection of my mother over the last few days.

The C's have said to read fairy tales for clues for male-female relationships. According Marie Louise Von Franz, who pioneered the Western fairy tale renaissance, fairy tales represent a universal instinctive layer of the human psyche - there are similar stories with similar lessons all across the world. She writes that in the current blip of time in our culture, there is no adequate image of the Feminine. My understanding is that therefore boys and men have a hard time figuring out how to relate to their Mothers, their own feminine side, their intimate partners, women in general, and also all things feminine, including the Earth.

Women in the Western world nowadays seem to seek images which could define their identity. This search is motivated by a kind of disorientation and a deep uncertainty in modern women. In the West, this uncertainty is due to the fact, as Jung has pointed out, that women have no metaphysical representant in the Christian God-image.

Protestantism must accept the blame of being a pure men’s religion. Catholicism has at least the Virgin Mary as an archetypal representant of femininity, but this feminine archetypal image is incomplete because it encompasses only the sublime and light aspects of the divine feminine principle and therefore does not express the whole feminine principle.

In studying fairy tales, I first came across feminine images which seem to me to complement this lack in the Christian religion. Fairy tales express the creative fantasies of the rural and less educated layers of the population. They have the great advantage of being naive (not “literary”) and of having been worked out in collective groups, with the result that they contain purely archetypal material unobscured by personal problems.

Until about the seventeenth century, it was the adult population that was interested in fairy tales. Their allocation to the nursery is a late development, which probably has to do with the rejection of the irrational, and development of the rational outlook, so that they came to be regarded as nonsense and old wives’ tales and good enough for children. It is only today that we rediscover their immense psychological value.

It's gotten even worse since von Franz wrote this decades ago in her book The Feminine in Fairy Tales. Not only do we have the Protestant anti-feminine assumptions suffusing some of the cultural air that we breathe, there is also the postmodernist toxin that cynically chokes out any conception of the divine, the Faces of God, or the hyperdimensional archetypes with whom we are always in contact, and with whom we always must negotiate. So everyone - men, women, boys, girls - are all at a pretty big disadvantage because we have only the slightest idea of the mythological material that could guide us through the labyrinth of decent human relationships.

I've been learning that fairy tales provide roadmaps of a soul's initiation, or in psychological terms, the path to individuation - becoming one's own person, finding out who you TRULY are, and discovering your destiny.

The fairy tale material suggests that the roadmap for men follows a certain five-fold pattern:

- bonding with the mother and separation from the mother
- bonding with the father and separation from the father
- bonding with the mentor, who points the way to the boy's unique soul
- apprenticeship with one's Self, or heeding the call of the soul
- Heiros gamos, or the holy marriage to the Queen

I think the word quintessential is a good one for describing this pattern. Quint, meaning 5, + essential meaning necessary or vital, and also denoting the Essence, as opposed to the False Personality. I think of it sort of like a 5-pointed star, and the life can jump from one point to another at any time, or someone can exist in a state of tension between two or three, or maybe all 5 at once.

The main point is that the separation from or rejection of the mother is understood to be an vital step in the growth of any man. Given our muy loco cultural moment, I think it would take a superhuman effort to do it well, whatever 'well' looks like. At any rate, I don't think it can be done without suffering, as it's sort of a death and rebirth at the same time. That's what its felt like to me, at least, as I'm navigating changes in the relationship. Sort of like a river in flood season - the best I've been able to do is stay on board and try to ride the emotional rapids.

 

[jacygirl]

I've been thinking about my parents lately (both long gone), and I went a different route with my thoughts. Things like, 'how much don't I know?' 'what was their childhood like?' 'what kind of parental role models did my parents have?' 'what generational trauma am I aware of?' But mostly, 'what don't I know, that had some affect/effect on their parenting, their motives behind actions, and is it possible I should give them the benefit of the doubt?'

My parents were from England. Both late teens/early 20's during WW2. Their parents, lived through WW1 and the Depression then WW2. Not exactly a happy history for my ancestors or parents and the war stories I was told (way too young) traumatized me too. My parents were married 9 years before I came along (only child). I was unexpected, and I don't think either of them had much experience with babies or children. Can I assume they did their best with what they knew? I can say "yes" now. But I will also always wonder what all the stuff I didn't know was, and I have so many questions they can never answer for me. I realized I didn't really know my parents as people.

Stereotypes from media have been successful at giving us a limited number of options for a 'character'. Good/bad wife, good/bad husband, good/bad parent, etc. I won't get into fairy tales because the older me is now angry at the characters, relationships, and dynamics in general, lol.

I guess what I'm trying to say is this. There is a lot that my kids don't know about because I was protecting them and also consciously not telling them things that they were too young to hear. (I learned something from my parents...don't traumatize your kid unnecessarily!) But there is a LOT they don't know, will likely never know, but it's that stuff that makes my actions at time make sense. To them, my actions didn't always make sense...but they also did not know what I was dealing with, or what limited options I had to choose from.

At this point, it feels better to me to forgive my parents, know that whatever they were dealing with, they did the best they could...and a little logical thinking from me has erased a whole lot of emotional pain.

 

[jacygirl]

Recently in this thread, many members (myself included) have bared their souls in regards to relationships and guilt/shame/pain. I couldn't stop thinking about it in bed last night, but the main theme in my head was 'courage' and 'growth'. I feel a need to say this. No offence taken if you don't feel a need to read it, lol.

I believe that by openly talking about real life experiences and the consequences accumulated, you can stop these emotions from ruling your life. By putting it out there you are taking the first step. This is probably the most safe space/place I know of to do something like this and receive nothing but honest replies, conversations, no emotional reaction from other members (not personally involved), and support without judgement. Isn't that what we really want? Isn't it what we really need?

With each admission/confession, it almost feels like a cat throwing up a hairball. Uncomfortable at first but relief from the purging. This is you, owning your actions. This is big! By owning your actions and acknowledging the fallout, you are lifting a great weight off yourself. You are allowing yourself to be an open book. "This is me, what I did, what happened, how I felt, and I own it so judge me or not, I no longer care. I will no longer feel guilty." It's out now and no longer buried inside of me.

What's awesome is that more people joined in, laying bare some painful truths from their lives, and encouraging the others. An amazing support group! Stories were exchanged and the empathy was palpable. These are the conversations we wish we could have with our loved ones and friends, but they don't want to hear harsh truths so we decide not to say anything.

The unexpected part is how you begin to change a little bit afterwards. Maybe the memories don't hurt as much now. Maybe in a way we see the painful parts as lessons and we're finally addressing them and learning from them. (better late than never) Maybe we start questioning our other relationships and now can see them more clearly, the good and the bad. In time you may find that the memories no longer trigger an emotional response in you, and you are aware of how you felt/feel but it no longer brings you to your knees.
This is a kind of freedom you're not used to after a life of guilt, pain, shame, etc. It's ok to let go of it.
Get off your knees friends. I'm proud of all y'all.

 

[polly]

Interesting coincidence - I've been thinking about my own rejection of my mother over the last few days.

The C's have said to read fairy tales for clues for male-female relationships. According Marie Louise Von Franz, who pioneered the Western fairy tale renaissance, fairy tales represent a universal instinctive layer of the human psyche - there are similar stories with similar lessons all across the world. She writes that in the current blip of time in our culture, there is no adequate image of the Feminine. My understanding is that therefore boys and men have a hard time figuring out how to relate to their Mothers, their own feminine side, their intimate partners, women in general, and also all things feminine, including the Earth.



It's gotten even worse since von Franz wrote this decades ago in her book The Feminine in Fairy Tales. Not only do we have the Protestant anti-feminine assumptions suffusing some of the cultural air that we breathe, there is also the postmodernist toxin that cynically chokes out any conception of the divine, the Faces of God, or the hyperdimensional archetypes with whom we are always in contact, and with whom we always must negotiate. So everyone - men, women, boys, girls - are all at a pretty big disadvantage because we have only the slightest idea of the mythological material that could guide us through the labyrinth of decent human relationships.

I've been learning that fairy tales provide roadmaps of a soul's initiation, or in psychological terms, the path to individuation - becoming one's own person, finding out who you TRULY are, and discovering your destiny.

The fairy tale material suggests that the roadmap for men follows a certain five-fold pattern:

- bonding with the mother and separation from the mother
- bonding with the father and separation from the father
- bonding with the mentor, who points the way to the boy's unique soul
- apprenticeship with one's Self, or heeding the call of the soul
- Heiros gamos, or the holy marriage to the Queen

I think the word quintessential is a good one for describing this pattern. Quint, meaning 5, + essential meaning necessary or vital, and also denoting the Essence, as opposed to the False Personality. I think of it sort of like a 5-pointed star, and the life can jump from one point to another at any time, or someone can exist in a state of tension between two or three, or maybe all 5 at once.

The main point is that the separation from or rejection of the mother is understood to be an vital step in the growth of any man. Given our muy loco cultural moment, I think it would take a superhuman effort to do it well, whatever 'well' looks like. At any rate, I don't think it can be done without suffering, as it's sort of a death and rebirth at the same time. That's what its felt like to me, at least, as I'm navigating changes in the relationship. Sort of like a river in flood season - the best I've been able to do is stay on board and try to ride the emotional rapids.

“Fairytales confirm, heal, compensate, counterbalance, and criticize the dominating collective attitude, just as dreams confirm, heal, compensate, criticize and complete the conscious attitude of an individual.” (Marie Louise von Franz, Individuation in Fairytales, p. 124)

You present your living story as a template of an evolving fairy tale: emotive and logical, structured and free, personal and universal, literary and primal, communal and individual, casting forth eloquent counterbalance and balance over us, listeners. Indeed, the very function and purpose we all share shoulder-to-shoulder in this cycle of dimensional journey. Thank you, iamthatis. This is nourishment.