How much of what the Cs say is 'symbolic'?

Kisito

Jedi Council Member
bjorn said:
Yeah, I can pinpoint several sessions that just blow me away of what it could possible mean. So I just keep with several possible explanations. It certainly keeps you thinking in new directions. They say that The best teachers are those who show you where to look, but don't tell. I hope it all becomes more clear in the future.



Oxajil
Q: (L) In terms of these Earth Changes, Edgar Cayce is one of the most famous prognosticators of recent note, a large number of the prophecies he made seemingly were erroneous in terms of their fulfillment. For example, he prophesied that Atlantis would rise in 1969, but it did not though certain structures were discovered off the coast of Bimini which are thought by many to be remnants of Atlantis. These did, apparently, emerge from the sand at that time.
A: Example of one form of symbolism.
The good teacher, learns to learn. The best known of these teachers was Socrates. This is the art of midwifery (maïeutique). The Socratic method (maïeutique) like Cs, with Laura and the team in disposals.
I think to decrypt something, do not stop at a precise definition. For accuracy in our 3D world is an illusion (Plato's cave). The semantics of the words, as is the fluctuation of water. For as define certain masters, polysemy is a multiple definition for a word. It does not tend to a poor definition of the word, but explains its symbolic. That is why in my view, it is very difficult to stop on one definition. It's like explaining the form of water. (A wave, a drop, a lake, a pond, a gas or ice. We drink water to live, and it can kill us). Things cristalisent definition, according to the evolution of our perception. To know one thing, they need to understand the external forces that influence. A symbol for a person or a people will not be the same for another person or other people. Our perception is defined by our emotional charge, and all the emotions of women and men are different from each other. Our genetic and emotional karma, makes us see different things. As each performer following these perceptions, some have identical perceptions, but that does not mean this to be true.
So when Edgar Cayces said that 1969 will reveal Atlantis, and the Cassiopaeans, said it was symbolic. Perhaps we should consider a link with the trip to the moon. Is the discovery of the mystery of the moon, known by Atlandes, or be much reincarnation of Atlantis in 1969.
 

BHelmet

Jedi Council Member
luc said:
Inviting a Monkey to Tea said:
...the essence of well-being is not in the stuff that is moving through our awareness. Rather, it lies in the field in which that stuff is appearing - the field of awareness to and in which our experience is arising.

In other words, this other plane of existence is what surrounds us, it is the background of our existence that we can become semi-aware of if we manage to not identify with our lower centers, but take the role as an observer instead. Nancy Colier brings up the analogy of a sky: the sky represents the higher plane in which our higher self exists (the observer); in the sky, different birds fly - our feelings, thoughts and sensations, i.e. lower centers. Usually, we are identified with the birds, but if we manage to observe them, we can begin interpreting their movements from a higher perspective, i.e. activate our higher centers.

So, maybe one way we can get closer to this 'sky'/other plane of existence is by describing the movements of our feelings: I feel as if a dark tunnel approaches me, I feel like an engine that stutters, I feel like he is sucking out my energy... Maybe, if we have cleaned our machine enough so that we can access the higher emotional center - i.e., feelings that come from the 'sky' and not from the 'birds' - and we describe them, we kind of talk the symbolic language of the higher planes? Maybe these stuttering engines and dark tunnels are, in a sense, part of the existence on higher planes?

The same would be true for the symbols the Cs use: they belong to a higher plane, so we must reverse the process in order to understand them: we must figure out what they represent in our emotional/physical life.

I think Wittgenstein was wrong in that we can't speak of these higher planes, but in a sense, he had a point: oftentimes, it's just not very useful and confuses the issue.

My understanding of Wittgenstein is that he was saying we do not have the language and/or word-concepts to discuss these higher planes effectively. Not to mention the fact we are attempting to discuss something we do not fully understand. (but I think we are attempting to develop the language and concepts in order to do so)

luc said:
Let's say, for example, that we feel a lot of pressure and rather depressed. We could then say that the Lizzies are beaming a ray at us from their invisible moon base, or whatever. But it might be more useful to look at it this way: we feel this pressure because some old programs have been triggered, and maybe we have some physical illness contributing to this feeling. Could it be that we are describing the same thing from different perspectives? What if the rays that the Lizzies are beaming at us are these programs and illnesses? If their "beam" transcends time and space, wouldn't it make sense that it can simultanously create those old programs via events in our past, family dynamics, ponerization and so on, weaken our health via the promotion of bad food, and fascilitating an event in the present that triggers these old programs created by the same "beam"? So the symbol would be "a beam from Lizzies living on the moon", because in a sense, with enough awareness, "that's how it feels". But because it is a signal from the higher planes which transcends time and space, what it actually looks like in 3D is an inflammation in the body, some trauma in the past, and an event in the present triggering the trauma. Now we have the choice how to react to that trigger - and this is where the future is open, and the "Lizzies" can't see it because of their wishful thinking...

It could also be suggested that we feel depressed because we have done enough work to remove enough 'buffers' to allow objective reality of our current situation to seep in to our awareness. A lot of the mental machinations that a person goes through can also be a kind of buffer to distance the objective reality from becoming too overwhelming. A 3D STS human version of wishful thinking: something to be on guard against. IOW, if I can distance my observational self or my mind far enough from the objective fact that I am knee-deep in alligators, I can hypothesize and conjecture about the nature of alligators, knees and the everglades to comfort myself that "I understand". (while the actual fact may be that I am already being consumed by said alligators) Kind of reminds me of "Pincher Martin" by William Golding which is about a guy who drowns and dies but inside his mind, before his brain dies, he imagines himself successfully struggling to survive and live until he becomes gradually aware of the objective fact of his death. Hm, this sounds a bit darker and more pessimistic than I mean it to. I am basically 'with you' on this. There are so many levels of understanding.

luc said:
So, I agree that concentrating on the 3D facts rather than the "moon base", Orion STS and so on is much more fruitful.

This is another sticky wicket. What is our ability to actually perceive 3D 'facts'? We are told SO many things as though they are facts. What do we choose to accept and believe? What do we really know in an absolute way and what have we really seen?

luc said:
BUT, these symbols given by the Cs are very useful for providing a different perspective from which to interpret our 3D "nuts and bolts" observations! In other words, the "nuts and bolts" of all these alien races, bases, ray beamings and so on are irrelevant, because we are talking about symbols here, and symbols don't have nuts and bolts :lol: BUT, they are highly fruitful in that they open our minds to a different plane of existence, to the "sky" from which the 3D nuts and bolts spring forth, and this enables us to interpret 3D reality more correctly and develop our "bird perspective", our third eye...
Hope this makes sense.

Yeah, it does. (Should I be concerned? :D)
 

BHelmet

Jedi Council Member
Joe said:
I wonder if anyone else finds it difficult to reconcile the idea of a 4D reality to which we might 'graduate' and which, if taken literally, implies a rather stupendous and radical change and leap forward in our abilities, with the fact that most people here are still struggling to handle some of the most basic and mundane aspects of 3D life, like getting a handle on emotions, thinking, actions, relationships, responsibility etc.
Yeah - I find it hard to reconcile the idea of some critical mass of humanity which overrides the individual choices. e.g., The 'group decision' to enter the short wave/incarnation process when, I am sure, there were some souls shouting 'noooooooo'. So, yeah, the idea that there may be some group fate at stake when a large part of the group is still mired in elementary school is kind of an issue for me. But, certainly I was mired in elementary "Choice School" for a long time in this life, so, I do recognize the need for patience. As one progresses, the lessons are trickier, but, it is still a continuation of the same school, osit.

Joe said:
I suppose I might just be assuming here than any true 'evolution' of a human being would happen, to a large extent, on a continuum. That is to say, whatever 'issues' you have at any purported point of 'transition' you would still have afterwards, likewise with your awareness/understanding.

Well, the 4th way does paint a picture of a staircase - steps, which are sort of discontiguous. You can bash your brains out charging headlong into the vertical wall of a step and then, when you have learned the lesson/done the work/realized the deeper meaning: presto-chango, you are onto the next plateau looking for the wall of that next step. But, sure, like they say: everywhere you go, there you are. So if you check your baggage on a flight, it is going to be there when you land. Maybe that is a bad analogy for those who have lost luggage on a plane.

Joe said:
So I'm sort of leaving out the idea of some kind of external force unilaterally 'upgrading' or 'enlightening' any human being beyond what they have already achieved (at one level or another) by their own efforts. That doesn't mean such a thing could not happen, but I'd be wary of relying on it to the point of neglecting what we can be more sure of i.e. conscious, personal efforts are what get results.

I am thinking it should not be forgotten that the Christus/Caesar/Whoever Exemplar had faith that higher knowledge and enlightenment could be received from 'on high'. Now, he probably had made enough personal effort through many lifetimes but at some point in the evolutionary process, he realized that to get to the next level it involved something extraordinary and beyond what had been the usual type of work. I guess I don't usually associate being open to receive and having faith in the process as being in the category of personal effort, but, on second look, perhaps it is. My mind is thinking "that's the easy way - that's not work'. But that is just what my mind thinks. Interesting.

A: Those of you who are waiting for "The Wave" to save or change you should be aware that you are really like the frog being gradually cooked.
[/quote]

At times, guilty as charged. But, I do realize the work continues on in 4D. Not the wishful thinking heaven of religion.
 

BHelmet

Jedi Council Member
bjorn said:
The rise of Atlantis could have meant the rise of the US/empire in one way or another. Since according to the C’s, we are in a way experiencing a repeat of the Antereans vs the Atlanteans which translated today into the US Empire VS Russia and it’s allies?

Totally agree - look at that year (1969) - huge increase in war involvement - gov't imported drug epidemic - assassinations galore - social control implementation on so many levels - corruption at the highest levels, etc. etc. all ramping up at the same time at an intense rate.
 

Eol

Jedi
I always had reservations in general since the first time i was introduced to symbology . Because for the most part, it was explained in a rigid way. Each symbol was associatied with just one specific definition. In this way how could you know, with all the deformations due to time and many other influences, that this definition is the original or not ? And was the original one accurate in this sense ?
It's when I started to read The Wave that I realized that an other approach which brings "space" in the interpretation was possibly more interesting. Symbols don't have a specific sens. It depends rather on the "backround" where they take place and are connected with other symbols to form a whole which, interprated globally by taking into account all the dynamics beetwen them, can reveal the hidden lesson that is conveyed.
In a sens, like you said Joe, being the most open about symbols is for me the best approach to acknowledge the informations that are possibly behind them.
 

bjorn

The Living Force
FOTCM Member
[quote author= luc]So, I agree that concentrating on the 3D facts rather than the "moon base", Orion STS and so on is much more fruitful.

[quote author= Bhelmet]This is another sticky wicket. What is our ability to actually perceive 3D 'facts'? We are told SO many things as though they are facts. What do we choose to accept and believe? What do we really know in an absolute way and what have we really seen?[/quote][/quote]

I agree and we should always keep that in mind, but I think we have to work with we currently know and proceed from there. Well at the same time not forming any conclussions.

For example, the C's spoke about sub-terranean living space of huge proportion underground, describing the depth in miles. Is there anything symbolic about miles or kilometers? I can't find it, so for now I take it literally.


[quote author= bjorn]The rise of Atlantis could have meant the rise of the US/empire in one way or another. Since according to the C’s, we are in a way experiencing a repeat of the Antereans vs the Atlanteans which translated today into the US Empire VS Russia and it’s allies?
[quote author= BHelmet]Totally agree - look at that year (1969) - huge increase in war involvement - gov't imported drug epidemic - assassinations galore - social control implementation on so many levels - corruption at the highest levels, etc. etc. all ramping up at the same time at an intense rate.[/quote][/quote]

Also shortly after the coup, after JFK was murdered. And his little brother, Bobby in 1968. Things drastically turned around since then.



[quote author= BHelmet]A: Those of you who are waiting for "The Wave" to save or change you should be aware that you are really like the frog being gradually cooked.

At times, guilty as charged. But, I do realize the work continues on in 4D. Not the wishful thinking heaven of religion.[/quote]

As I understand it, the Realm border crossing only presents an opportunity to provide balance.

And 4D doesn't seem like a picknick. Without sufficient self-knowledge you might go to a place where there is no mercy. I suspect that 4STS can be rather convincing in their ploys and tricks by exploiting any weakness that you might have.

And while that is going on, there is the responsibility of helping and assisting others. It's not something you want to mess-up. 4D isn't paradise, it's just more responsibility.
 

luc

Ambassador
Ambassador
FOTCM Member
bjorn said:
Bhelmet]This is another sticky wicket. What is our ability to actually perceive 3D 'facts'? We are told SO many things as though they are facts. What do we choose to accept and believe? What do we really know in an absolute way and what have we really seen?[/quote] I agree and we should always keep that in mind said:
And while that is going on, there is the responsibility of helping and assisting others. It's not something you want to mess-up. 4D isn't paradise, it's just more responsibility.

That's how I understand it as well. Kind of like if you have a little company, and it starts growing: yes, you will probably have more money and means, but even more responsibility and hard work. The difference with the STO option is that it's hard work aligned with truth, which is worth pursuing, and nothing else will satisfy us in that state I guess. Or that's how I understand the process :)
 

HiThere

The Living Force
FOTCM Member
Thank you for this thread. I am personally inclined not to invest too much energy into deciphering C statements, as I only run into inconcistencies that I feel distract me from more fruitful association around the subjects and sometimes new insights.
I take the view that we cannot expect to "know" anything about 4D that we don't already know from within beforehand.
One can have revelations that might present itself as new insight, but to me this feels like a continuum and not like one new part added to others.

Kisito expressed it well in my opinion:

Kisito said:
The good teacher, learns to learn. The best known of these teachers was Socrates. This is the art of midwifery (maïeutique). The Socratic method (maïeutique) like Cs, with Laura and the team in disposals.
I think to decrypt something, do not stop at a precise definition. For accuracy in our 3D world is an illusion (Plato's cave). The semantics of the words, as is the fluctuation of water. For as define certain masters, polysemy is a multiple definition for a word. It does not tend to a poor definition of the word, but explains its symbolic. That is why in my view, it is very difficult to stop on one definition. It's like explaining the form of water. (A wave, a drop, a lake, a pond, a gas or ice. We drink water to live, and it can kill us). Things cristalisent definition, according to the evolution of our perception. To know one thing, they need to understand the external forces that influence. A symbol for a person or a people will not be the same for another person or other people. Our perception is defined by our emotional charge, and all the emotions of women and men are different from each other. Our genetic and emotional karma, makes us see different things. As each performer following these perceptions, some have identical perceptions, but that does not mean this to be true.
So when Edgar Cayces said that 1969 will reveal Atlantis, and the Cassiopaeans, said it was symbolic. Perhaps we should consider a link with the trip to the moon. Is the discovery of the mystery of the moon, known by Atlandes, or be much reincarnation of Atlantis in 1969.
 

Keit

Ambassador
Ambassador
FOTCM Member
luc said:
Well, I think many of the things the Cs said can be taken literally in a sense. However, we should always be open to the idea of symbolism I think - who knows what they could mean by that remark about sub-terranean bases? Maybe one day, it will be obvious and we will go "duh!"...

Yes, I also think that unfortunately what the C's said about the children, for example, like the Indian children, or recently about migrant children, is probably true. Considering what we know, it rings true in a literal and horrific way. :(
 

BHelmet

Jedi Council Member
One symbolic comment the C's did suggest is the "California falls into the sea" comment. I have always wondered about that.
Could it mean Cali goes into 4D?
 

Dirgni

The Living Force
FOTCM Member
BHelmet said:
One symbolic comment the C's did suggest is the "California falls into the sea" comment. I have always wondered about that.
Could it mean Cali goes into 4D?

In history of the earth things like this happend. When you see all this sinkholes all over the world and the ring of fire not far from California and all those earthquakes happening there, it could be that something will happen to California. It could be that "California falls into the sea" is symbolic or that it goes into 4D. But it could also be one of those literal warnings they gave us.
 

Joe

Administrator
Administrator
Moderator
FOTCM Member
BHelmet said:
luc said:
luc said:
So, I agree that concentrating on the 3D facts rather than the "moon base", Orion STS and so on is much more fruitful.

This is another sticky wicket. What is our ability to actually perceive 3D 'facts'? We are told SO many things as though they are facts. What do we choose to accept and believe? What do we really know in an absolute way and what have we really seen?

I think what Luc means is what we can verify, to a large degree, for ourselves.
 

theoria

The Force is Strong With This One
I think a symbol is sort of like a higher dimensional form. The shape that the symbol takes here on 3D is a shadow of this higher dimensional form. Just as a 3D form, like a cube, can be represented in a 2d shape as a square. This square is only one plane of a cube, and there is practically infinite planes/squares in a cube. So a symbol from a higher dimension can be interpreted infinite ways in our dimension. It is not that we cannot describe or speak of symbols, but that they can each be described literally endlessly, all the while being only one symbol, one common message.

Maybe everything the Cs say is symbolic in the sense that we each have the opportunity to project our own personal, informed definition upon their messages. Personal, in the sense that it is an individual lesson we should each take responsibility for. Informed, in the sense that we apply our knowledge of a proposed "objective" reality in defining their messages.

However if we just leave it at this personal, even if informed level, then our interpretation would never go beyond a merely subjective function.

Perhaps this is why the Cs urge networking, because only if we each share our individual interpretations of a symbol/message, will we have a more complete view of the symbol's true form. No one person can ever have the "answer". Everyone, put together, will have the "answer".

Graduation to 4d could be just a symbol that we are interpreting too literally. As if some sudden "rapture" will occur at some point in time which will beam a select group into another dimension/density. It could be that the transition/graduation/ascension has to do with our gradual discovering of something which we had never noticed before, but which has always been right under our nose. Only those who care to look will see it. Or perhaps there really will be some momentous event that catalyzes a shift in perception for those who are ready. I'm really not sure.
 

gdpetti

Jedi Council Member
theoria said:
....
Graduation to 4d could be just a symbol that we are interpreting too literally. As if some sudden "rapture" will occur at some point in time which will beam a select group into another dimension/density. It could be that the transition/graduation/ascension has to do with our gradual discovering of something which we had never noticed before, but which has always been right under our nose. Only those who care to look will see it. Or perhaps there really will be some momentous event that catalyzes a shift in perception for those who are ready. I'm really not sure.
Or realizing that the two are really the same?
 

theoria

The Force is Strong With This One
gdpetti said:
theoria said:
....
Graduation to 4d could be just a symbol that we are interpreting too literally. As if some sudden "rapture" will occur at some point in time which will beam a select group into another dimension/density. It could be that the transition/graduation/ascension has to do with our gradual discovering of something which we had never noticed before, but which has always been right under our nose. Only those who care to look will see it. Or perhaps there really will be some momentous event that catalyzes a shift in perception for those who are ready. I'm really not sure.
Or realizing that the two are really the same?
Very true
 
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