Is Coffee Good or Bad for you?

[dugdeep]

It's too bad this has to end for a couple of reasons, not the least of which is that I really genuinely like coffee, especially with butter blended into it (yum!). But also the fact that it's been so helpful in making me more regular. I'm worried that I'm going to go back to never pooping again, but I'll wait it out to see how it goes. Also, coffee provided a great way to get more fat into my diet, which is something I've struggled with (as I mentioned earlier in this thread).

I hope I'm not sidetracking another thread too much, so perhaps responding to this response in the KD thread would be better dugdeep, but I've been wondering about this with you. I think I recall you mentioning vomiting (I think a number of times) from what you thought was getting too much fat, but now you think that you're not getting enough?

Yeah, it's been a bit of an ongoing issue, at least periodically. If I don't get enough fat I get hunger and cravings. If I get too much fat, I get nauseous, sometimes so bad that I have to induce vomiting to get relief. I often seem to be skating that line, but for some reason taking in fat between meals, or shortly after meals, in the form of butter coffee seemed to work well for me.

I've been getting more clues to the nausea recently, too. It seems that it is definitely tied to eating connective tissue that hasn't completely broken down in slow cooking. I don't know if that makes sense, but it's the stuff that would be gristle if it wasn't cooked for hours, at which point it turns a soft sort of slimy texture. It often surrounds bones. It's quite tasty when it's simmered for hours, but makes me quite sick. I've had to make myself a rule to not eat the meat that is left after straining the bone broth, because I always get sick from it. It always strikes a few hours after eating it, often waking me up in the middle of the night. I think I might be lacking the enzyme to break down a certain protein or something like that.

After the two weeks I'm thinking about trying just decaf to see if that suits me at all (as I mentioned, I found a very clean Swiss water decaf that is 99% caffeine free). If it's just the caffeine that's bothering me, the decaf may work. Having a fatty beverage that may help to regulate my bowels might be too good to be true, but I'll experiment with it and report back here.

Tea could also work to get more fat, but may not have the same bowel effect. Decaf coffee may be better in that regard, though I'd still be wondering what was at the root of the bowel problems (which I'm sure you are).
[/quote]

I've never been crazy about tea. I've tried a few different types with butter to see if I can get the same effect but nothing sticks.

Yes, definitely wondering what's at the root of the bowel issue. It may just be that my bowels have grown to be dependent on a certain amount of fiber over the years. I was using fiber supplements in the past when I was in nutrition school and was getting inundated with the "everyone needs lots of fiber" programming. That was several years ago, but who knows, I might be dependent on it at this point. I certainly hope that's not the case, though. I'm enjoying eating just meat and fat :)

 

[seek10]

Given the number of people bailing on the coffee experiment due to bad reactions, ... Although, I have to say, most of what I've noticed have been positive benefits over the past week of coffee drinking. The best result has been that my bowels have been back on track (although I think there still needs to be some adjustment here). Also, I'm really benefiting from having another means of getting fat into my diet without risking nausea.

The negative effects people have mentioned haven't really seemed to be happening to me - no dry nose, no sleep disturbances, no inflammation, no illness... In fact, if anything I think I'm sleeping better.

...

I do seem to detoxify coffee pretty well, as it really doesn't wake me up. It just does something to my mood and I'm always able to sleep. No sickness or irritations. The only time I noticed something off was when I had a rather huge dose of black coffee. ...

... Unless it compromises my ketogenic state, then I would stop. I think ketosis is far more useful.

Having determined a level of coffee (whether instant or beans - which for a 'coffee drinker' is relatively small) now, I find that coffee seems beneficial to me, and, as above, positive effects, and a lack of negative effects. Interestingly, when younger, even when I'd given up drinking coffee, I never was a 'tea person'. I guess it's something like being predisposed to smoking or not (which I'm still not). As Psyche implies, maybe it's all in the genes. We are all different. :)

Some times, I wonder KD increase smoking craving ?. I start eating with no smoke craving, before I finish food, I end up craving smoking.

 

[Psalehesost]

Some times, I wonder KD increase smoking craving ?. I start eating with no smoke craving, before I finish food, I end up craving smoking.

Several people have posted (elsewhere - could be LWB thread and/or smoking thread, don't remember) that smoking for them seems to stimulate/aid digestion. I don't know the exact difference it makes for me in that regard (I'm fine not smoking after a meal), but smoking after a meal (generally each meal) has nevertheless become a habit, and while I tend to feel quite good after a meal, I tend to feel further refreshed smoking after one.

(Not only do I generally smoke, but when I get to work on something, I stuff the inside of my upper lip with snus (Swedish oral tobacco), so I generally tend to both smoke and chew right after a meal.)

 

[anart]

Well, right away I could already see that it had affected me more than I'd realized. I had some pretty uncomfortable withdrawal symptoms, which I totally was not anticipating. I was in a grouchy mood for a couple of days and my stress response seemed way out of whack. When it got busy at the store that I work in, something that happens all the time, I got really stressed out, well out of proportion to what my response usually is. I can only assume this was because I was going without my coffee-crutch to which I'd grown accustomed.

I'm not surprised. Your initial reaction to this experiment:

As you can probably tell, I'm loving this experiment. I think coffee is one of the things I've missed most with all the dietary changes, and I'm overjoyed now that it's back :D

Was a huge clue that your body has major issues with coffee. I was that way with dairy because I am very allergic to it.

 

[Psalehesost]

If I don't get enough fat I get hunger and cravings. If I get too much fat, I get nauseous, sometimes so bad that I have to induce vomiting to get relief. I often seem to be skating that line, but for some reason taking in fat between meals, or shortly after meals, in the form of butter coffee seemed to work well for me.

I've been getting more clues to the nausea recently, too. It seems that it is definitely tied to eating connective tissue that hasn't completely broken down in slow cooking. I don't know if that makes sense, but it's the stuff that would be gristle if it wasn't cooked for hours, at which point it turns a soft sort of slimy texture. It often surrounds bones. It's quite tasty when it's simmered for hours, but makes me quite sick. I've had to make myself a rule to not eat the meat that is left after straining the bone broth, because I always get sick from it. It always strikes a few hours after eating it, often waking me up in the middle of the night. I think I might be lacking the enzyme to break down a certain protein or something like that.

When I ate too little protein at the same time as I got sick (at first without noticing) during my coffee experimentation, the symptom was nausea in connection to bone broth - mine contains the meaty pieces, but not sure if this was the trigger. Other food didn't seem to cause the same response. Anyhow, these days eating much larger meals (though still consisting of around 50% pure fat, mostly tallow), I have no issues with nausea, and can eat bone broth without issue.

I have no idea if there is any relation, but one thing you could experiment with is to increase protein intake, and then along with it fat intake, and when your meal sizes have at least doubled (due to natural increase in appetite following), see if unfiltered broth still makes you sick.

(As a bonus for me, my bowels seem - at present, anyhow - significantly stimulated by the highly upsized, still-high-fat meals. Should you come to experiment, this could be another thing to watch for.)

 

[Martina]

hello! I was listening on the radio couple days ago some coffee expert :). She was saying that coffee is OK, it has antioxidants and so...but it is important the way you prepare it and to drink it without milk and sugar. You probably know all of that :) :).
I drink it rarely because I don't like it.

 

[Gaby]

Well, right away I could already see that it had affected me more than I'd realized. I had some pretty uncomfortable withdrawal symptoms, which I totally was not anticipating. I was in a grouchy mood for a couple of days and my stress response seemed way out of whack. When it got busy at the store that I work in, something that happens all the time, I got really stressed out, well out of proportion to what my response usually is. I can only assume this was because I was going without my coffee-crutch to which I'd grown accustomed.

I'm not surprised. Your initial reaction to this experiment:

As you can probably tell, I'm loving this experiment. I think coffee is one of the things I've missed most with all the dietary changes, and I'm overjoyed now that it's back :D

Was a huge clue that your body has major issues with coffee. I was that way with dairy because I am very allergic to it.

Hmm, I think I will stick to tea. This discussion just reminded me of the following thread, where I wrote:

I've never considered in the past that I could be allergic to coffee, but a kinesiology test was positive for it, and stopped drinking it, having subsequently a general improvement. Then I stumble upon the following article today...

Caffeine Induced Anaphylaxis, A Progressive Toxic Dementia

_http://www.doctoryourself.com/caffeine2.html

Cerebral allergy is an allergy to a substance, which targets vulnerable brain tissue and alters brain function. Masked cerebral allergy can cause symptoms of mental illness (Walker, 1996; Rippere, 1984; Sheinken et al., 1979). Symptoms range from minimal reactions to severe psychotic states, which may include irrational behavior, disruptions in attention, lack of focus and comprehension, mood changes, lack of organizational skills, abrupt shifting of activities, delusions, hallucinations, and paranoia (Sheinken et al., 1979; McManamy et al., 1936).

An allergic reaction to caffeine manifests as anaphylaxis (Przybilla et al., 1983). During a state of caffeine anaphylaxis, the body enters the fight or flight mode, which may be mistaken as hyperactivity, anxiety, or panic disorder. Caffeine anaphylaxis causes cerebral vasculitis, leads to the breakdown of the blood brain barrier, and generates toxic dementia.

Toxic dementia induced by a stimulant or other toxin affects function of all brain areas (Jacques, 1992). Several signs of toxic dementia are memory impairment, deterioration of social and intellectual behavior, and attention deficits (Allen et al., 2001; Jacques, 1992; Headlee, 1948).

Attention Deficit Disorder (ADD), assumed to affect children, (though of late, adult onset ADD is grabbing a slice of the pie of psychiatric disorders), is indistinguishable from caffeine allergy. Claudia Miller, M.D. stresses that a chemical sensitivity, which includes caffeine as a chemical capable of inducing sensitivity, can induce attention deficits with hyperactivity (Miller, 1997).

Deteriorating intellect, the first stage of caffeine induced allergic toxicity masquerades as ADD. Inability to concentrate, lack of comprehension, lack of focus, hyperactivity, delusions, and disorganized thought processes are hallmark signs of caffeine allergy. An allergic reaction to caffeine results in poisoning of the prefrontal cortex. Damage to the underside area on the prefrontal cortex, above the eye sockets, generally renders a person absent minded and interferes with the ability to monitor personal activities (Carter, 1998). Injury results in loss of verbal and social inhibition, interferes with focus and memory (Eliot, 1999), and suppresses math skills (Carter, 1998).

In studies involving comprehension skills, as in mathematics and logical reasoning, caffeine has either exhibited no change, or has actually depleted performance (Braun, 1997). Caffeine may jeopardize math skills and detailed projects, which require additional thought (Serafin, 1996; NTP Chemical, 1991).

Caffeine anaphylaxis interferes with the ability to focus. Sitting still becomes a project. Raising the catecholamine level, caffeine produces additional dopamine, which increases locomotive movement. Agitation is associated with excess dopamine (Carter, 1998).

[...]

 

[Beau]

Dugdeep, if you need to stimulate your bowels you can always try the vitamin C approach. Take some, say 5 grams and wait an hour or so. If your belly doesn't bubble up, take 7 grams and wait an hour. Keep upping the dose until your belly bubbles over. Eventually it will have a laxative effect. Magnesium is also another good supplement that can get things moving.

I also was thinking that you could try using an immersion blender with your bone broth. It might help you hold down the marrow and fat that usually is stringy but with the blender it gets blended and mixed into the broth. I find this method to be much more palatable. They are very easy to use and you can blend right in the pot that you cook in. FWIW.

 

[dugdeep]

Thanks for the responses, all :)

Well, right away I could already see that it had affected me more than I'd realized. I had some pretty uncomfortable withdrawal symptoms, which I totally was not anticipating. I was in a grouchy mood for a couple of days and my stress response seemed way out of whack. When it got busy at the store that I work in, something that happens all the time, I got really stressed out, well out of proportion to what my response usually is. I can only assume this was because I was going without my coffee-crutch to which I'd grown accustomed.

I'm not surprised. Your initial reaction to this experiment:

As you can probably tell, I'm loving this experiment. I think coffee is one of the things I've missed most with all the dietary changes, and I'm overjoyed now that it's back :D

Was a huge clue that your body has major issues with coffee. I was that way with dairy because I am very allergic to it.

Yeah, right from when you first responded to that comment I had the feeling coffee's days were numbered. It was hard to give up, which is a clear sign it's having a negative effect. I'm still going to try out the decaf in another week or so, but I don't have high hopes. I have a feeling it might be the coffee itself that's having at least part of the negative effect, not just the caffeine. But we'll see.

When I ate too little protein at the same time as I got sick (at first without noticing) during my coffee experimentation, the symptom was nausea in connection to bone broth - mine contains the meaty pieces, but not sure if this was the trigger. Other food didn't seem to cause the same response. Anyhow, these days eating much larger meals (though still consisting of around 50% pure fat, mostly tallow), I have no issues with nausea, and can eat bone broth without issue.

I have no idea if there is any relation, but one thing you could experiment with is to increase protein intake, and then along with it fat intake, and when your meal sizes have at least doubled (due to natural increase in appetite following), see if unfiltered broth still makes you sick.
{snip}

Thanks Psalehesost. But for me, I definitely think I can rule out low protein. I have a tendency towards too much protein, not too little. I still have that program that runs every so often, looking at the plate with 3 oz of meat on it saying "is that really all you're going to eat? A little bit more wouldn't hurt..." I've always been a really big eater, so this turn in the diet has been a challenge getting out of that mindset. But it's always clear to me when I've eaten too much protein because I get hungry way faster than usual and I often find my body temperature drops (at least I think so - haven't confirmed that one).

Hmm, I think I will stick to tea. This discussion just reminded me of the following thread, where I wrote:

I've never considered in the past that I could be allergic to coffee, but a kinesiology test was positive for it, and stopped drinking it, having subsequently a general improvement. Then I stumble upon the following article today...

Caffeine Induced Anaphylaxis, A Progressive Toxic Dementia

_http://www.doctoryourself.com/caffeine2.html

Cerebral allergy is an allergy to a substance, which targets vulnerable brain tissue and alters brain function. Masked cerebral allergy can cause symptoms of mental illness (Walker, 1996; Rippere, 1984; Sheinken et al., 1979). Symptoms range from minimal reactions to severe psychotic states, which may include irrational behavior, disruptions in attention, lack of focus and comprehension, mood changes, lack of organizational skills, abrupt shifting of activities, delusions, hallucinations, and paranoia (Sheinken et al., 1979; McManamy et al., 1936).

An allergic reaction to caffeine manifests as anaphylaxis (Przybilla et al., 1983). During a state of caffeine anaphylaxis, the body enters the fight or flight mode, which may be mistaken as hyperactivity, anxiety, or panic disorder. Caffeine anaphylaxis causes cerebral vasculitis, leads to the breakdown of the blood brain barrier, and generates toxic dementia.

Toxic dementia induced by a stimulant or other toxin affects function of all brain areas (Jacques, 1992). Several signs of toxic dementia are memory impairment, deterioration of social and intellectual behavior, and attention deficits (Allen et al., 2001; Jacques, 1992; Headlee, 1948).

Attention Deficit Disorder (ADD), assumed to affect children, (though of late, adult onset ADD is grabbing a slice of the pie of psychiatric disorders), is indistinguishable from caffeine allergy. Claudia Miller, M.D. stresses that a chemical sensitivity, which includes caffeine as a chemical capable of inducing sensitivity, can induce attention deficits with hyperactivity (Miller, 1997).

Deteriorating intellect, the first stage of caffeine induced allergic toxicity masquerades as ADD. Inability to concentrate, lack of comprehension, lack of focus, hyperactivity, delusions, and disorganized thought processes are hallmark signs of caffeine allergy. An allergic reaction to caffeine results in poisoning of the prefrontal cortex. Damage to the underside area on the prefrontal cortex, above the eye sockets, generally renders a person absent minded and interferes with the ability to monitor personal activities (Carter, 1998). Injury results in loss of verbal and social inhibition, interferes with focus and memory (Eliot, 1999), and suppresses math skills (Carter, 1998).

In studies involving comprehension skills, as in mathematics and logical reasoning, caffeine has either exhibited no change, or has actually depleted performance (Braun, 1997). Caffeine may jeopardize math skills and detailed projects, which require additional thought (Serafin, 1996; NTP Chemical, 1991).

Caffeine anaphylaxis interferes with the ability to focus. Sitting still becomes a project. Raising the catecholamine level, caffeine produces additional dopamine, which increases locomotive movement. Agitation is associated with excess dopamine (Carter, 1998).

[...]

{my bold}

Thanks for that, Psyche. I think this may explain part of what's going on with me. When drinking coffee I found the buzz to be detremental to any kind of concentrated activity. Although my reading speed went up, comprehension went way down. It was exactly like ADHD is described - great difficulty in focusing at the task at hand, with mind wandering everywhere but where it's supposed to. Perhaps I do have a caffeine allergy. I suppose this would mean green tea should be out too (which I rarely drink, but on occassion).

Dugdeep, if you need to stimulate your bowels you can always try the vitamin C approach. Take some, say 5 grams and wait an hour or so. If your belly doesn't bubble up, take 7 grams and wait an hour. Keep upping the does until your belly bubbles over. Eventually it will have a laxative effect. Magnesium is also another good supplement that can get things moving.

That's a good idea. Thanks Heimdallr. It seems I've been fixed on this idea of not needing supplements since being on the KD and have been resisting using them. Time to put kick that idea out the door, I think.

I also was thinking that you could try using an immersion blender with your bone broth. It might help you hold down the marrow and fat that usually is stringy but with the blender it gets blended and mixed into the broth. I find this method to be much more palatable. They are very easy to use and you can blend right in the pot that you cook in. FWIW.

I might try that in the future, but honestly, I think I'd rather just avoid eating the "bits" from the bones. The nausea is so incredibly uncomfortable I don't really relish the idea of testing this out. BTW, I still eat the marrow, if there's any left in the bones by the time they're done. No issues there :)

 

[SeekinTruth]

I think there could be more than one problem with coffee. Isn't there supposed to be substances (besides caffeine) that are some of the most cross-reactive with gluten? That would be both decaf and caffeinated coffee. Anyway, one of the reasons I stopped the experiment with black coffee quickly is that I felt a very low level, body-wide inflammation in addition to other undesirable effects. FWIW.

 

[realitybugll]

dugdeep,


did you get a stomach ache at all or just vomiting? and how did you feel afterwards.

I had one experience vomiting, so I'm curious about this.

 

[dugdeep]

dugdeep,


did you get a stomach ache at all or just vomiting? and how did you feel afterwards.

I had one experience vomiting, so I'm curious about this.

I wouldn't call it a stomach "ache" because there's not really any pain. It's more just deep and profound discomfort in the form of nausea.

 

[Laura]

Back when I first gave up coffee, believing it was the caffeine (years ago) I tried decaf - very good decaf, too. It was exactly the same so I don't think it is the caffeine. Also, since tea doesn't bother me at all in any way I've been able to detect, I'm pretty sure that the caffeine isn't the worst thing in coffee. It's got to be something else.

 

[realitybugll]

dugdeep,


did you get a stomach ache at all or just vomiting? and how did you feel afterwards.

I had one experience vomiting, so I'm curious about this.

I wouldn't call it a stomach "ache" because there's not really any pain. It's more just deep and profound discomfort in the form of nausea.

Thanks for clarifying that for me.

 

[Gaby]

Thanks for that, Psyche. I think this may explain part of what's going on with me. When drinking coffee I found the buzz to be detremental to any kind of concentrated activity. Although my reading speed went up, comprehension went way down. It was exactly like ADHD is described - great difficulty in focusing at the task at hand, with mind wandering everywhere but where it's supposed to. Perhaps I do have a caffeine allergy. I suppose this would mean green tea should be out too (which I rarely drink, but on occassion).

Back then when I posted this, the sensitivity kinesio test was specific for coffee. When I found the information, I thought it referred to coffee, then I realized it said caffeine. In any case, I also tend to think that it has more to do with coffee than with anything else. It is a chemical cocktail.

Another one that is suspicious to me is dark chocolate. Same thing like with coffee, good mood and then a pretty big crash afterwards. But chocolate has also a chemical cocktail. There are even diagnostic tools that screen for chemical producing tumors that forbid you to eat chocolate before the test. It is also very telling that they forbid you to eat fruits, vanilla, coffee, cocoa, coke, caffeine and mate beverages, vinegar, alcohol, nuts, gluten containing foods, night shade family, and mushrooms. That basically leaves just animal foods and perhaps herbal teas.

I've been a chocolate junkie my entire life. It has been very difficult to quit. I think that having sweetened tea with stevia or xylitol (I actually used Erythritol which is another sugar OH) has made it just plain difficult to stop the craving.

I actually stop all dark chocolate last week, even if it was like 2 grams of sugar. It was one of those things that you struggle all your life with and once you do it, you find it was not an issue at all to quit and actually find it liberating. I say this because I just spent the whole day without sweetened tea and I can't believe how much better I feel without that stimulation.