Is the bright white light and tunnel an alien trap for discarnate spirits?

3DStudent

The Living Force
FOTCM Member
I think if I mentally "reverse-engineer" my life towards birth and possibly before, I see the decisions I made and can make assumptions about what kind of lessons I learned or planned for in 5D. For instance, I'm pretty shy and avoided the relationship and family business, so that was a bullet I dodged, so to say. And I didn't know for a long point what I wanted to study or do with my life, and my current great job is kind of "just where I landed", perhaps due to a bit of luck or outside influence.

But I did get caught up in video games and wasted a lot of my early years on that. I have some unfinished business even while still here, and all things considered, I think if I were to realize that I were dead, I have enough knowledge to say, "Ok lets turn the page and leave all this behind, next journey ahead!" "Will there be learning? If it's 3rd density, there definitely will be." But that sounds like a silly question. I think I'll be ok, I've done this before!
 

sitting

Dagobah Resident
Adobe said:
I think in this particular situation were going to have to trust that we are enough to handle it, and the universe can be trusted too.

I believe the universe indeed IS trustworthy!

And I base this on the foremost remark ever made by the C's -- in my opinion. (A remark deeper than even "all there is is lessons.") It is:

"information arranged by a truth becomes consciousness."

What a fundamental revelation!

It first gives us the "basis" (information.) And implied (from this basis,) is randomness -- neutrality -- almost indifference. That really is the nature of information.

Then comes a crucial conditional attribute. Arrangement. And it's arrangement by a truth. This sharply reveals the nature of mind that is the cosmic mind. Compassionate and value fulfilling ... truth based.

Imagine (heaven forbid) an arrangement by chance, greed, hate or any one of our disturbing emotions. It really would be too horrific to contemplate.

This arrangement then gives rise to consciousness. The quality which then allows for "lessons absorption." Hence making "all there is is lessons" relevant in the first place.

Unlike the C's, Seth had made "consciousness units" the basis. This is a vital miss (in my view.) And I always keep this misstep in the back of my mind, whenever I refer to the Seth material. I think of it as a significant but not fatal error.

The other implication from the C's comment suggest a reality of sequencing. Cause and effect. From information -- to arrangement (by truth) -- to an arising of consciousness. This does not sound like a simultaneous affair. It does give pause to the idea that all is happening at once ... like NOW.

The bottom line is: Whatever it is that I do or not do, there exists a rational & compassionate framework of which I'm a small part. And it's something which I can never be parted from.

And that is reassuring.

But I could be wrong.

FWIW.
 

Laura

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sitting said:
Beorn said:
Ibn al-'Arabi is talking about a man who had a belief which conformed to the actual situation but didn't have knowledge of it.

He says:

"What he believes must necessarily become imaginalized, since he does not have the power to disengage it from imagination. This takes place when death is made present, since this is a state which gazes up on the presence of sound imagination into which no doubt enters.

This is not the imagination which is a human faculty located in the front of the brain. On the contrary, this is imagination from the outside, like Gabriel in the form of Dihya. It is an independent and sound ontological presence which possesses embodied forms worm by meanings and spirits. This person will have a degree here that accords with what he believed."

I'm curious about the meaning of "sound" in the above passage.

Is it sound as in "reasonable?" Or is it sound as in "inaudible sound" (from Seth.) Or "indestructible sound" (from Kalachakra.)

The context (and the fact that Chittick is a native English speaker) suggests " reliable, dependable, trustworthy, well built, solid, secure, well constructed, substantial, strong, sturdy, stout, durable, stable, intact, well founded, well grounded, valid, reasonable, logical, solid, weighty, authoritative, convincing, cogent, plausible, credible, reliable, thorough, proper, real, regular, complete, total, veritable, without reserve".
 

Gateway

Padawan Learner
Though not a follower of Buddhism, or knowledgeable on it, yet may be curious to point out that Buddhist philosophy has a whole sector dedicated to this after-life light topic.

For those who don't know Tibetan Mysticism and are interested, the "Bardo", is a state of existence between death and rebirth. Speaking in our terms, it takes place after death and in it a soul is supposed to take some actions, or reactions, in order to pass on to other density realm. Anyway the Bardo Thodol, that is, the famous Tibetan Book of the Dead may be of a metaphoric character with some inserted corruption as uses to happen IMO.

The below described Bardo corresponds to an initial moment while, untill certain point, the dead may be assisted by a "teacher" lasting that transition. Apparently the supreme goal in there is to achieve during that passage that what corresponds to the 7th density light and so getting released from the cycles of reincarnations. Next follows a glimpse of the Tibetan Book of the Dead which BTW in some aspects reminds something of the Egyptian version:

Tibetan Book of the Dead said:
[The First Stage of the Chikhai Bardo: The Primary Clear Light Seen at the Moment of Death]

The first, the setting-face-to-face with the Clear Light, during the Intermediate State of the Moments of Death, is:
Here [some there may be] who have listened much [to religious instructions] yet not recognized; and [some] who, though recognizing, are, nevertheless, weak in familiarity. But all classes of individuals who have received the practical teachings [called] Guides will, if this be applied to them, be set face to face with the fundamental Clear Light; and, without any Intermediate State, they will obtain the Unborn Dharma-Kaya, by the Great Perpendicular Path.

Thereby [the deceased] will be put in mind of what he had [previously] heard of the setting-face-to-face and will at once come to recognize that Fundamental Light and undoubtedly obtain Liberation. As regards the time for the application [of these instructions]:
When the expiration bath ceased, the vital-force will have sunk into the nerve-centre of Wisdom and the Knower will be experiencing the Clear Light of the natural condition. [...]

[...]At this moment, the first [glimpsing] of the Bardo of the Clear Light of Reality, which is the Infallible Mind of the Dharma-Kaya, is experienced by all sentient beings.

And of course there is much more. There are in many moments of the process opportunities for the liberation (the Perfect Enlightenment) or rebirth at higher levels of existence. As well are many "circumstances" that offer different comfortable bright lights that conduct the spirit back the mundane world.

That first opportunity above quoted lasts according to the mind and karma of the spirit. For example it can last a fraction of second or three, four days. Yet the most usual is the spirit avoiding the "Clear Light," it uses to be afraid of that light, says the text.
 

sitting

Dagobah Resident
Laura said:
sitting said:
Beorn said:
Ibn al-'Arabi is talking about a man who had a belief which conformed to the actual situation but didn't have knowledge of it.

He says:

"What he believes must necessarily become imaginalized, since he does not have the power to disengage it from imagination. This takes place when death is made present, since this is a state which gazes up on the presence of sound imagination into which no doubt enters.

This is not the imagination which is a human faculty located in the front of the brain. On the contrary, this is imagination from the outside, like Gabriel in the form of Dihya. It is an independent and sound ontological presence which possesses embodied forms worm by meanings and spirits. This person will have a degree here that accords with what he believed."

I'm curious about the meaning of "sound" in the above passage.

Is it sound as in "reasonable?" Or is it sound as in "inaudible sound" (from Seth.) Or "indestructible sound" (from Kalachakra.)

The context (and the fact that Chittick is a native English speaker) suggests " reliable, dependable, trustworthy, well built, solid, secure, well constructed, substantial, strong, sturdy, stout, durable, stable, intact, well founded, well grounded, valid, reasonable, logical, solid, weighty, authoritative, convincing, cogent, plausible, credible, reliable, thorough, proper, real, regular, complete, total, veritable, without reserve".

Hi Laura,

Thank you for your remark.

You're right of course (with the proper context in mind.) I was stretching ... maybe by a lot.

But as you so ably noted, there are a lot of other words to express same. And I think some actually fit better into the above sentences. Cogent and stable comes to mind.

I read those 2 paragraphs several times. And was still a bit puzzled by his use of the word "sound" -- twice. Hence my question.

But within its proper context, the answer is very clear -- as you said.

Thank you.
 

lilies

The Living Force
Beorn said:
[..]
Another thing I've heard about is the 'mists' that appear when one dies. I don't know if it's real or not but have had it come up a few times while reading that there's some kind of adjustment period that takes roughly three days. Maybe the mists appear because those who have died where in a confused state and could not 'see' or maybe it does just take some time to adjust.

Was it the C's who said the birth process was more difficult for the soul than dying because of time constraints? If that's so then maybe we've already been through the most difficult bit. :cool2:

Notice, If you meditating long enough you might start to see a lot of silvery mist matter - swirling around like smoke that seems to be constantly 'fading in and out of reality' - then lighting up your probably totally dark room. You could experience strong 'moon-light' all around you. It usually behaves mist-like.

It might be that at the time of death - in the process of crossing over the two densities could become temporarily mixed to a dying person. The human spiritual sensory apparatus probably begins to open up, revealing more and more of the other world, which soon will be the normal environment of the died person. There have been accounts told (IIRC) when existing as a spirit, one has greatly expanded sensorium, compared to our limited senses here in 3rdD.
 

sitting

Dagobah Resident
lilies said:
It might be that at the time of death - in the process of crossing over the two densities could become temporarily mixed to a dying person.

The human spiritual sensory apparatus probably begins to open up, revealing more and more of the other world,

I have the impression (from C's) that any density transit ... is through a conduit.

They have not however elaborated on the characteristics of this conduit. Except for this:

"knowledge is key to developing a conduit."

But is this "knowledge" a general (and increasing) level of seeing -- or is it a specific knowledge about the conduit itself? Or both?

I don't know the answer to this question.

I do know in tantra, all they talk about (especially in the completion stage) is this conduit. They seem sure of its characteristics -- in unbelievable detail.

But first a caveat:

I recall a transcript session a while back, where someone brought forth Kriya Tantra. The C's (rather firmly) put a damper on that thingy. (I always keep this in mind, in discussing tantra.)

(But Kriya tantra is the lowest form of that art. The last of the fourth. And a vast difference exist between the fourth and the first -- Anuttarayogic tantra.)

Now the density transit from 3rd to 5th seems automatic. Almost a birth right. Not much to be done there.

Our curiosity I think is from 3rd to 4th. Note the Buddhist aim is different. They seek a non-reincarnating 5th or higher. (I often have doubts about its feasibility.) But the C's have said "yogis can do it" -- without specifying the true meaning of it. So this point remains open.

This transit seems to come at the moment of death. That's the moment the track switches apparently.

I think the 3rd to 4th transit may also come at the point very close to death, but not quite. Rather than going into Bardo (5th density.) it goes into something else.

And that's the realm where variable physicality is the norm.

Anuttaragoya discusses at length, this final moment of escape from Bardo. What comes out is something described as near "Buddha forms" where thoughts reign. And where physicality is no longer.

Their practice, is really a simulation of the death process. Through meditation -- going all the way down to near clear light (near death) ... then slowly reversing back. This practice gives familiarity to the approaching moment of dying. And when real death is imminent -- it's at that crucial point where the acquired knowledge (with clarity and no confusion) kicks in. Resulting in transit into a different realm.

This in some way, fits into the C's remark: "knowledge is key to developing a conduit." And I wonder if this too is what happens for those who qualify as candidates for 4th density.

All this is utter speculation on my part. But hopefully informed speculation. And of course:

I could be wrong.

FWIW.
 

Laura

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sitting said:
Anuttaragoya discusses at length, this final moment of escape from Bardo. What comes out is something described as near "Buddha forms" where thoughts reign. And where physicality is on longer.

Their practice, is really a simulation of the death process. Through meditation -- going all the way down to near clear light (near death) ... then slowly reversing back. This practice gives familiarity to the approaching moment of dying. And when real death is imminent -- it's at that crucial point where the acquired knowledge (with clarity) kicks in. Resulting in transit into a different realm.

This in some way, fits into the C's remark: "knowledge is key to developing a conduit." And I wonder if this too is what happens for those who qualify as candidates for 4th density.

All this is utter speculation on my part. But hopefully informed speculation. And of course:

I could be wrong.

FWIW.

Sounds to me rather like the process that Gurdjieff described as becoming an "immortal thing".

I would suggest that the requisite knowledge is more general to life, living, relationships, etc. As the Cs noted, you don't go to 4D until you learn the lessons of 3D and those are pretty much relationships, simple understandings, what al-'Arabi would call "giving each thing its due". And of course, that, in itself is a considerable task when one considers the level of knowledge needed to exercise external considering and to stop internal considering. It is that kind of knowledge that is important to crystallizing a real *I* in my opinion.
 

sitting

Dagobah Resident
Laura said:
Sounds to me rather like the process that Gurdjieff described as becoming an "immortal thing".

I would suggest that the requisite knowledge is more general to life, living, relationships, etc. As the Cs noted, you don't go to 4D until you learn the lessons of 3D and those are pretty much relationships, simple understandings, what al-'Arabi would call "giving each thing its due". And of course, that, in itself is a considerable task when one considers the level of knowledge needed to exercise external considering and to stop internal considering. It is that kind of knowledge that is important to crystallizing a real *I* in my opinion.

Hi Laura,

I think you're right.

And those "simple understandings" are not so simple to attain.

I got hammered by it these past 2 1/2 years ... through jealousy (from others) and my own disturbing emotions (too many to list) yielding a toxic brew. Nearly cost me my life. And my love one's well being. (My sense is Joe too, is still in the midst of his trials.)

Oh ... simple understandings indeed!

A point I wish to highlight (regarding tantra) is there can be problems with excessive complexity. As more complex is not necessarily more cogent -- or correct.

While I find impressive logic in Guhyasamaja (the foremost system within Anuttarayoga tantra regarding death -- bardo -- rebirth,) it's so complex & difficult that I wonder if anyone can really achieve this. (Including monks.)

That said, this complexity might be due to their far loftier goal. To attain Buddhahood in one lifetime. In essence a direct leap from 3rd into 6th. Now that ... is a tall order.

Speaking for myself, I would be utterly grateful if I can just join other like minds (here) ... and make it out of 3rd and into the 4th level of density. Realistically, it's probably all I can ever hope to handle now.

As always: Thank you so much for your insightful commentary.
 

Laura

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Moderator
FOTCM Member
sitting said:
A point I wish to highlight (regarding tantra) is there can be problems with excessive complexity. As more complex is not necessarily more cogent -- or correct.

While I find impressive logic in Guhyasamaja (the foremost system within Anuttarayoga tantra regarding death -- bardo -- rebirth,) it's so complex & difficult that I wonder if anyone can really achieve this. (Including monks.)

That said, this complexity might be due to their far loftier goal. To attain Buddhahood in one lifetime. In essence a direct leap from 3rd into 6th. Now that ... is a tall order.

And may, in fact, be part of the plot of the Lords of Serpent Power... Re-read the session from 11/11/95.
 

sitting

Dagobah Resident
Laura said:
sitting said:
A point I wish to highlight (regarding tantra) is there can be problems with excessive complexity. As more complex is not necessarily more cogent -- or correct.

While I find impressive logic in Guhyasamaja (the foremost system within Anuttarayoga tantra regarding death -- bardo -- rebirth,) it's so complex & difficult that I wonder if anyone can really achieve this. (Including monks.)

That said, this complexity might be due to their far loftier goal. To attain Buddhahood in one lifetime. In essence a direct leap from 3rd into 6th. Now that ... is a tall order.

And may, in fact, be part of the plot of the Lords of Serpent Power... Re-read the session from 11/11/95.

Hi Laura,

I reread.

And it was a useful cautionary tale.

It also confirmed for me, the utter importance of bodhicitta (that critical part of Anuttarayoga -- within the guiding framework of Madhyamika.) Bodhicitta being this deep abiding desire to help others ... in the most appropriate way possible. This the causal reason for seeking enlightenment in the first place.

Without this essential component, red flags would certainly be raised. (And may still be raised.)

Thank you for this important pointer.
 

Divide by Zero

The Living Force
Laura said:
sitting said:
Anuttaragoya discusses at length, this final moment of escape from Bardo. What comes out is something described as near "Buddha forms" where thoughts reign. And where physicality is on longer.

Their practice, is really a simulation of the death process. Through meditation -- going all the way down to near clear light (near death) ... then slowly reversing back. This practice gives familiarity to the approaching moment of dying. And when real death is imminent -- it's at that crucial point where the acquired knowledge (with clarity) kicks in. Resulting in transit into a different realm.

This in some way, fits into the C's remark: "knowledge is key to developing a conduit." And I wonder if this too is what happens for those who qualify as candidates for 4th density.

All this is utter speculation on my part. But hopefully informed speculation. And of course:

I could be wrong.

FWIW.

Sounds to me rather like the process that Gurdjieff described as becoming an "immortal thing".

I would suggest that the requisite knowledge is more general to life, living, relationships, etc. As the Cs noted, you don't go to 4D until you learn the lessons of 3D and those are pretty much relationships, simple understandings, what al-'Arabi would call "giving each thing its due". And of course, that, in itself is a considerable task when one considers the level of knowledge needed to exercise external considering and to stop internal considering. It is that kind of knowledge that is important to crystallizing a real *I* in my opinion.

If I knew then what I know now, especially psychology. I would see that to be able to properly externally consider, requires trust on my own ego and "sensitivity". Without being able to be sensitive and make mistakes, how could I externally consider others?
It reminds me of the stories of Buddha, full of questioning, doubt and mistakes.

What the white light gives but also seems to confuse is that if we don't have that true "ego" by that time, we would easily be pulled into some belief of what IS. I am reminded of how 30 years among the dead show that these blind beliefs, without personal "play" or ego end up dominating the minds of the dead. If we keep looking up for enlightenment, ascension and so on, we are still slaves. But if we do it from "below" - respecting life in itself- we can connect to a purer form of what consciousness and life actually is!

The most interesting article came up posted in sott comments: http://www.wakingtimes.com/2016/04/15/psychic-parasites-inter-dimensional-beings-and-the-occult-elite/
Funny how the C's always said how STS needs to feed on 3d. I wondered how come they would need this emotion, if in effect, they are immortal via technology/time being open?
I am starting to understand why most of the power of STS comes from below, but since they themselves are not able to connect to it, they seek it through feeding it on our own emotions, etc. They have denied the true self in order to gain a shortcut to become "higher". That in itself feels like some sort of predestination, themselves in the future being powerful because of their own need for being given power by those higher forces. Meanwhile, when we look at what the C's/Gurdjieff show, human life in itself is important and there is no way to just run out and become superman by following some belief.

But if we die with that mental BS still active, going to the light will just add energy to that feedback loop. Or so I think.

Edit: Perhaps this is what causes us to keep coming back, as the fall- for "sex" which essentially is emotional food, as if we could gain something more. Maybe that's the ultimate karmic lesson, that we keep wishing for more and more - expecting too much of ourselves, a form of spiritual narcissism, to be "perfect" before we allow ourselves to move on?
 

sitting

Dagobah Resident
Divide By Zero said:
What the white light gives but also seems to confuse is that if we don't have that true "ego" by that time, we would easily be pulled into some belief of what IS.

What the "clear light of death" represents I think, is our return to higher levels of the "information field."

(This "clear light" in my opinion -- is more a "clarity of thought" than "light" itself. And is not the white light that emanates from 7th. In Buddhist terminology, it's the subtlest mind.)

It's only from that clear light (higher information field,) that any density transit can manifest. Via conduits. (This I get from many hints, from many sources.)

This has implications for the 3rd to 4th transit. The one we all prefer (not desire.) Preferred so as to move further along on the path of STO.

This "reason" is so so so critically important. As any other reason is a fail. This clearly from C's. (Equally clear in Mahayana.)

The descend of souls into physicality is in essence, an unbelievable "dumbing down" of the information field. (Obvious I think.) A reduction from infinite probabilities -- to workable possibilities.

This reduction confines our existence to within a particular camouflage (Seth's term.) A specific universe -- within the general framework of 3rd density (C's term.) In both, the innate power of souls is greatly restricted. For learning. It's during the transition time that everything from prior, reverts.

Regardless of the actual physical circumstances when the SHTF, I think the "clear light of death" has to be present just prior to transit. It's the only condition where sufficient computational power exists -- to make density transition possible.

It's close to normal dying. With one difference. At critical moment -- instead of computing (variables being emotions, beliefs, clarity, confusion, etc) into bardo, the preferred answer gets us into a realm of "variable physicality." A new camouflage. With attributes of the ethereal AND physical coexisting. Fun place ... and one that's leveled.

(As an aside, I think the computational analogy may have some relevance. And "arrangement" is a form of computation.)

I believe for both 3rd density repeats AND graduates ... the near death experience may be a must -- and will be similar until the very last moment. Near death is where the transformative power is available. (This is very clear from tantra.) It's not in everyday walking around life. The available energy in everyday life is just too limited.

My guess is we will not be simply zapped into 4th while we're sitting down or lying in bed.

Getting a glimpse of this process (IF it is accurate) can help with any transformational traumas or confusion.

But this is pure speculation on my part. Hopefully informed speculation (with a purpose.)

I could be very wrong.

FWIW.
 

obyvatel

The Living Force
[quote author=sitting]
This has implications for the 3rd to 4th transit. The one we all prefer (not desire.) Preferred so as to move further along on the path of STO.

This "reason" is so so so critically important. As any other reason is a fail. This clearly from C's. (Equally clear in Mahayana.)
[/quote]

What in your opinion/experience is the practical difference between "preferring" and "desiring"?
 

whitecoast

The Living Force
FOTCM Member
Sitting, I confess I'm having a bit of troubling following you and the point you're trying to make. You seem to be casually jumbling together a lot of different terminology (from Buddhism, the C's, Seth, and others). Nothing wrong with syncretism, but each separate term needs to have its own defined referential indices, so we can collectively figure out where exactly the concepts between disparate sources connect.

This "reason" is so so so critically important. As any other reason is a fail. This clearly from C's. (Equally clear in Mahayana.)

There's a lot "not even wrong" here... What "reason?" The previous sentence gives no clear reference to a "reason". "As any other reason is a fail." No alternative reasons can be understood, since there's no clearly defined initial reason. Also, a failure to do what? Then you say the reason is clear from what the C's say and what's understood in Mahayana Buddhism. How specifically do they support what you're saying? To which sayings do you refer? You use a ton of sentence fragments, and make vague references to what this or that source says. It's not clear to me how someone's supposed to understand or accept what you're saying. If you can't clearly communicate your understanding to someone else, you give the impression you don't understand it yourself. That doesn't mean you don't, but it does highlight the importance of using objective language, especially in topics as complex as this one.

Doing my best to understand what you're saying, I am sceptical of the importance of near death experience in graduating. I mean, that whole obsession in Buddhism has led to foolish old men fetching Llamas to read them passages of the book of the dead on their death beds, so they can correctly navigate the afterlife and find Nirvana. As if exploiting that moment somehow compensates for their multitude of sins, or imparts to them any essence-understandings whatever. It reminds me of the scene in Hamlet where Hamlet refuses to kill his praying uncle because he didn't want him to go to heaven - opting instead to kill him after he's sinned so he can go to hell instead. :rolleyes: The requirements of graduating to 4D centre around mastering the lessons of 3D, not mastering some free-lunch "dirty hack" at a critical threshold (to use programming lingo). If you live like a tramp, you die like a tramp. If you live like a warrior, well, maybe there's something else in store for you in the next birth. This may not directly address what you've been trying to say, but like I said it's been a chore figuring that out.
 
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