Is There an Ideal Way of Acting and Being in Male-Female Relationships?

[BHelmet]

Great stuff Alejo. Fantastic!

It triggers another observation for me, and that is the notion of ideals. We tend to assume that we already have ideals within us that are true and accurate which are somehow a gift from the absolute. And yet... the process of identifying and developing our ideals takes time; a long time. Our ideals of interaction can change as we evolve.

How many of our so-called ideals have external sources? Perhaps a great grandmother says something when we are young and it sticks with us. In our youth we find some ideals by becoming aware of what we find distasteful in others. Inevitably double standards emerge. We read something and believe it is the right way and incorporate it into our conception of the ideal. We see movies and hear songs that make us feel a certain way and these things infiltrate our consciousness from a subconscious level. There are cultural and ethnic ideals that get imprinted on us. Through the process, we tend to assume our ideals are...ideal, and that they are true to who we are and who we wish to be. (and yet who we are is an ongoing process of becoming) So, an investigation into our ideals is a must and a prerequisite for any real dancing.

As for the music, that is interesting. Do we hear the same music at the same moment? What IS the music our souls are hearing? What is the music we are inclined to dance to? Who or what is playing teh music and what does it consist of? Sometimes our soul hears and knows but our minds have been trained to intellectualize the whole process and can negate or distort the music in our souls. We may even deny the music we are hearing. We may desire a certain idealized dance while actually being unable to execute the steps. Can we identify the dance we were made for?

Lastly, like sports, sitting on the sidelines and observing, while it can be fruitful, is nothing like actually getting onto the field of play or onto the dance floor. I was single for 34 years and I can say it did not really prepare me for dancing in a marriage for the last 37 years. I guess the point here is that we can try match up before the dancing begins; try to sift through the potential partners and identify the 'right' partner; the ideally matched partner to insure an easy dance. But the nature of dancing and dances carries no guarantee of anything.

In the end, I think we are dancing with life, with the universe and ultimately with our self and that is where it comes full circle back to our ideals: Have we danced while staying true to the ideals we have taken on?

As St. Paul said: Love Endures all Things. That is an ideal and a dance that can be quite the rewarding challenge.

 

[3DStudent]

We read something and believe it is the right way and incorporate it into our conception of the ideal. We see movies and hear songs that make us feel a certain way and these things infiltrate our consciousness from a subconscious level. There are cultural and ethnic ideals that get imprinted on us.

I've thought about this before and try to think about when I was more a blank slate as a child. You can call it the process of "STSification". A sort of mimicry into this STS world. TV and school seem to be primary shaping factors. I can remember how much TV shows and school made for a sense of competition, not to mention video games.

And is the dance basically the Logos? Like Alejo was saying, it's sort of like a model that can be applied to any relationship or endeavor in life.

 

[Happy Poo]

@Happy Poo
I’m late to this thread (still making my way through most of it, but wanted to reply to this one). I’ve been with a girl for 8 years now who has no presence here or particular interest to be on the forum. I always thought that I’d have to find someone who is part of the forum, aware of Laura’s writing and some of recommended reading, doing the Work, etc. At least to an extent. If this is a hugely important part of my life, it is understandable to want to find someone who values this too, and to have common topics of discussion, and Work together etc. And maybe in a perfect world, this would still be the ideal “pool” to choose from.

However, I realized that there’s not that many people here (vs 8 billion humans), we are generally scattered all over the world, and so the odds are pretty slim. This is also not a dating site, and generally speaking we don’t hold conventions where a few thousand of us get together and mingle. Mingling is rare for forumites at large. So as I reasoned it through, my options are - start going to Laura’s house. And even if I did, visit, what am I supposed to do, find someone single to flirt with? I’m sure I’d be much more focused on other things if I ever visit. I’m not going to flirt in a forum thread either lol. Also as a rule forumites are discouraged (for good reason) of private messaging each other. And if you did, flirting is generally a red flag. Again, for good reason, very often the ones who have done so were the last person you’d want talking to you as they tended to be predatory and manipulative, having an agenda, etc.

So look, outside of a bunch of us living in a house or neighborhood together (never say never, however!), the odds are against you. And on top of all of that, dating based on criteria or a checklist doesn’t work well. Even if I went to Laura’s house, and there happened to be a very attractive single woman hanging around, and even if she was super well versed in all things Cass, you have to have an attraction physically, personality wise, humor wise, and other ways. You can’t schedule a relationship or mutual attraction based on preconceived criteria alone.

So I could either not date at all because I figured why bother I don’t want someone who isn’t a match in that sense, or I could date anyway and at least I could meet some cool people that I may enjoy spending time with. Who knows what the universe has in store?

Well I did the latter, without having my hopes up. I met a girl on a dating site (I know, I know), and the rest is history. Here’s the thing. She doesn’t read the forum, but she has intuitively been doing the Work without knowing it has a name and a book. She is interested in many of the same subjects, and thinks with a hammer when it comes to these things, and when it comes to solving problems together as they come up. She’s also the most caring, selfless, hard working, and loving girl I’ve ever met. And she loves dark and inappropriate humor just like I do. I could talk to her for hours without being bored. I could go on and on.

And you know what - it worked. We help each other work on our own weaknesses. We leverage our strengths. She can be emotional and gets angry sometimes out of seemingly nothing, but she is just as quick to calm down, and I try to be the calming influence whenever possible. She’s hyper aware of this. I have my issues and she’s incredibly supportive and encouraging to motivate me to stay the course, etc.

And I’m happy with her. I talk to her about many topics from the forum, about the sessions, and she will order and read books from the reading list. She’s interested in psychological topics and others, mostly situational. Like my mom was a narcissist so she will delve deeply into that topic because it happens to be relevant. And so on.

We have salient and objective discussions about the state of the world, where it’s all going, how to get through it together, etc. We send each other links and articles about what’s going on and talk about them.

Turns out what I thought I wanted and what I really needed weren’t aligned. So now my view has changed. If you were to ask me now what I think are the most important qualities in a person for me to seriously consider dating, the forum wouldn’t be a requirement, it would be a “nice to have”. I’d say it’s someone who has a truly loving and giving heart, isn’t manipulative, is smart and loves to think and discuss, and someone who is truly willing to work hard on her own life and on your relationship to always be growing and improving. Both as a couple and as individuals. Basically if they can exhibit the qualities that this forum and the C’s stand for, actually being on the forum is optional. I can cover that part, as much as I can. And the future is open!

Would I bring her with me if I ever get a chance to visit Laura? You bet your ass I would. Would I be proud of who she is as a person to proudly tell people whom I admire that this is my girlfriend? Hell yes I would. In many ways, for all my years of reading the forum and all that, she is ahead of me in the Work (again, without having realized she was doing it). Yes I know a bunch of more technical stuff from the C’s cosmology and other stuff, but when it comes to learning lessons and practicing what you preach, I’ve never met someone who is more congruent. Also she’s the most honest person I know. Almost to a fault.

So my advice - I don’t think it hurts to meet people and talk. Go on dates, get to know them, tell them about yourself, and see how things go. The ones who don’t fit will fall off, but if you’re just out there and not afraid to see what happens, you may find some great people. Maybe one of them you’d be happy to spend your life with. Just be smart about it, don’t let your private parts do the thinking and decision making, apply what you learned on this forum when it comes to narcissists, and other potential traps. Look out for red flags basically and don’t ignore them. Take your time, don’t force or rush anything. I think people can sometimes surprise you.

Hi Thanks, sorry for delay, wasn't quite sure how to put things. Thanks for taking the time to write to me, and for your advice it makes loads of sense. I'm not good with choosing the right relationships, making good choices in this.

And my bad choices probably had a lot more to do with it, than someone not being knowledgeable about the work in retrospect. As usual it's my own choices that led me to a situation where I ended up hurting someone. And myself, had to end relationship I was in recently.

It's one of the most difficult things I've had to do because the last thing I wanted to do was hurt anyone especially in the situation that happened which would take an age to explain.
In hindsight I'm probably being to rigid about relationships in terms of wether people have to know about the work etc.

And if they do read, that this happens naturally not like an expectation to put on someone, like I did in the past. Although my ex always said he was going to read it from the beginning and that he was interested, but didn't really have a genuine interest deep down from what I could see looking back.

Was thinking though, it would be better (ideally) to meet someone who does have an idea about whats going on, with what we are facing in terms of how these negative things manipulate us, as then we would both be on the same page when it came to understanding the world and how forces work here and the like. And this would offer more protection perhaps.. But anyway I get that it's veery unlikely thing to meet someone like this!

And, (sorry to be so personal), but just to explain why I'm not really looking for someone.. What happened to me/us in my last relationship was a very difficult thing, something changed in me afterward.
Now just can't imagine going on dates etc as the feeling to have any kind of erotic relationship has gone, so to say. Probably because it was one of the things that got me into trouble it the first place. Again sorry this is an embarrassing subject hope you don't mind me saying, but thought it good to explain. No need to reply to that one lol! Anyway maybe this happened to me because this situation was so difficult, and I dunno.

I meant can you imagine, getting to know someone and then saying to a person on a date, 'ah btw I'm not up for it lol, I have no libido that's not gonna happen "..:)
I'd not be onto a winner there ha!
So maybe I'm just going to be alone. It's not preferred through, but maybe I won't meet someone and if that's the case then just need to form good friendships instead or something. Anyway much appreciated, you sharing about your experiences and about your girlfriend. I'm glad you've found a good relationship and long may it continue.

 

[Happy Poo]

What you say is all very valid, to borrow your analogy, this thread is exploring a few principles of that dance.

Essentially, what you're pointing out is true, all of it. But the point of this discussion is to recognize the music, with its rhythm, harmonies, melodies and so on... AND learning how to dance to THAT music, so that you can dance.

Because we all want to dance, but it's better if we understand the music, and know how to dance it, as opposed to wanting to dance and not understanding the music nor knowing how to dance, that is a recipe for disaster.

Yes, of course, we will need to be ashamed by admitting that we had no clue what music we were dancing to, as a lesson, and some lessons are also picking the wrong dance partner, over and over again.. or (And this is very important) being the wrong partner over and over again, or being passed on because there are better partners available, or rejected, or made fun of and humiliated, or humiliating someone, or rejecting someone and so on, you follow my train of thought.

But that's life, you don't have to dance, but it's better to know how to IMO. But you don't have to. Because not every dance is with a potential romantic partner either. And not everyone will find a partner. But, that's life too, I still think it's better to know the music and know how to dance.

So, there is the point of this thread, there's music and we all want to dance, do we understand the music? and do we know how to dance?

Thanks this really made sense, it reminded of a transcript where the C's said, regarding the analogies of people being instruments playing in an orchestra.. It was a comment along the lines of, "can you still play well if others don't play so well around you? ".. I'm reading through the transcripts but haven't found that bit yet apologies.

From stuff that's happened to me, reckon the answer may be a "no" most likely. Not that I play that well, more like if there were lot of toxic relations around, including friends etc, I found it pretty much impossible to move forward, the opposite happened more like. And it was all I could do to just not react.. I failed at that sometimes too. So the impression was how important it is to try to find more positive influences..

 

[Alejo]

I meant can you imagine, getting to know someone and then saying to a person on a date, 'ah btw I'm not up for it lol, I have no libido that's not gonna happen "..:)

Well, if you ever want to share that event.. and process it, feel free to open up a thread, whenever you're ready.

I don't want to contradict you for the sake of contradicting you, but... I think it kind of works the opposite way, you don't have to want it to seek a long term relationship, I think you meet someone and then you see if you're up for it, if you're not you're not... but you may be. It sounds cliche, but I think it really is about living in the present, instead of in the future you're certain would come about. It will sound cliche, but can you love someone if your relationship isn't physically affectionate? and do you think you're worthy of that kind of love?

The physical is an expression of something else, if that something else is there, the physical will adapt. If the relationship is purely physical, then yes.. it's an impediment for sure. I know sex is a big factor in most people's minds, but remember that relationships are about a lot more than that, at a basic level even, trust, company, affection, intimacy.

Perhaps put another way, physical intimacy is kind of like a language, if there's something to express, you will find the words to express it, and understand what is being expressed by the other, so long as you and your partner speak the same language.

Believe me, I am very well aware of relationships going sour and loosing interest in them altogether. But it is a function of something inside me, that I owe myself to identify, rather than me being correct about the workings of the world or interpersonal relationships.

 

[Alejo]

How many of our so-called ideals have external sources? Perhaps a great grandmother says something when we are young and it sticks with us. In our youth we find some ideals by becoming aware of what we find distasteful in others. Inevitably double standards emerge. We read something and believe it is the right way and incorporate it into our conception of the ideal. We see movies and hear songs that make us feel a certain way and these things infiltrate our consciousness from a subconscious level. There are cultural and ethnic ideals that get imprinted on us. Through the process, we tend to assume our ideals are...ideal, and that they are true to who we are and who we wish to be. (and yet who we are is an ongoing process of becoming) So, an investigation into our ideals is a must and a prerequisite for any real dancing.

Good point, and how many of those ideals end up contradicting one another? for instance, "ideally I want to date a pretty girl", and then you learn that pretty doesn't equal good, afterwards you still want pretty because you're wired to by so many different factors... but you also want good, and that "good" also changes over time based on experiences and learning, as does your definition of beauty.

And also, I was thinking about this music analogy, and dancing, it occurred to me that it was a marrying of both brain hemispheres. This music are the rules that we were discussing at the beginning of this thread, biology and so on. Understanding the music requires one to break it down to its components, left brain, which is where a lot of people seem to be stuck at.

But then you have to take that, and bring it all together to become something far larger than the sum of its parts, the components turn into music, into dancing, into all that dancing implies. Right brain

In that sense what you say about us hearing the same music, is interesting, what we pay attention to informs the world that we perceive, one could only focus not he physical aspect of the music, or only on the ethereal one, at which point we may be hearing different music. Which is probably an interesting analogy to make when identifying potential partners, do they hear the same music you hear? and do they dance to it in the same way you do? or can you teach one another to dance it together.

 

[BHelmet]

Yup. Super stuff!

Regarding a relationship going sour: what if fidelity and keeping a vow is one of your ideals, especially if children are involved? One way is to say, I made a mistake, this is the wrong dance partner, goodbye. Of course so often ‘wrong partner’ after ‘wrong partner’ is left behind, and clearly there is something not being learned.

There are a thousand dance partners and a thousand nights and a thousand dances. This is the stuff of that favorite love song thread. Except it is not about someone else’s song. It is about being willing to stumble onto an unstable dance floor, an imperfect dancer with another imperfect dancer and to begin to dance your own dance to a song that becomes your own. (…or not)

Dang, Alejo ain’t we just the poetic, romantic geeks, or what?!

 

[Happy Poo]

Well, if you ever want to share that event.. and process it, feel free to open up a thread, whenever you're ready.

I don't want to contradict you for the sake of contradicting you, but... I think it kind of works the opposite way, you don't have to want it to seek a long term relationship, I think you meet someone and then you see if you're up for it, if you're not you're not... but you may be. It sounds cliche, but I think it really is about living in the present, instead of in the future you're certain would come about. It will sound cliche, but can you love someone if your relationship isn't physically affectionate? and do you think you're worthy of that kind of love?

The physical is an expression of something else, if that something else is there, the physical will adapt. If the relationship is purely physical, then yes.. it's an impediment for sure. I know sex is a big factor in most people's minds, but remember that relationships are about a lot more than that, at a basic level even, trust, company, affection, intimacy.

Perhaps put another way, physical intimacy is kind of like a language, if there's something to express, you will find the words to express it, and understand what is being expressed by the other, so long as you and your partner speak the same language.

Believe me, I am very well aware of relationships going sour and loosing interest in them altogether. But it is a function of something inside me, that I owe myself to identify, rather than me being correct about the workings of the world or interpersonal relationships.

Thanks for your reply Alejo, and I hope your right, perhaps the physical will adapt if I met someone where there was real love. I'd like to think so. . I could love someone like this yes, but wether I'm worthy of it? That's a very good question lol hadn't thought if it like that.. And not sure I know the answer. Sometimes I get down about it because sex is one of the things that makes the difference between a romantic relationship and a friendship in most people's minds from what I can see. Even if there is a deep connection..And there's nothing wrong with that it's only natural. I could be totally wrong about that of course and there may be exceptions, and never say never as they say, it may happen, or not who knows. I'll try to be more open about meeting new people and see where it goes :)

 

[Alejo]

Regarding a relationship going sour: what if fidelity and keeping a vow is one of your ideals, especially if children are involved? One way is to say, I made a mistake, this is the wrong dance partner, goodbye. Of course so often ‘wrong partner’ after ‘wrong partner’ is left behind, and clearly there is something not being learned.

Right, so best to ensure that such falls won't leave without teaching you something. About yourself and the world at large, hopefully after a few painful dances, you won't be too cynical. But, yes.. that is life.

Thanks for your reply Alejo, and I hope your right, perhaps the physical will adapt if I met someone where there was real love. I'd like to think so. . I could love someone like this yes, but wether I'm worthy of it? That's a very good question lol hadn't thought if it like that.. And not sure I know the answer. Sometimes I get down about it because sex is one of the things that makes the difference between a romantic relationship and a friendship in most people's minds from what I can see. Even if there is a deep connection..And there's nothing wrong with that it's only natural. I could be totally wrong about that of course and there may be exceptions, and never say never as they say, it may happen, or not who knows. I'll try to be more open about meeting new people and see where it goes :)

No worries,

Well sometimes it's not about whether you're worthy of something based your past, sometimes the answer isn't so much "I am worthy" but "I choose to be worthy today" and aim at that, what would a worthy person look like? behave like? and so on.. and try to incorporate some of that in you, it doesn't mean success in finding a partner per se, but it will transform you.

I completely understand sex and its importance in a relationship, but I believe that so long as you remind yourself that it is more than a physical act, that it comes from everything else that goes on in a relationship, then I believe it remains important, but part of a larger dynamic and not simply an ingredient.

I'll say again, if there's something real to express, you and your partner will find a way to express it. I have been thinking about sex lately and I thought that, even though there is meaningless sex, purely biological, and abuse and things as such, one of the reasons why sex is such a touchy subject is becase, I am not sure if it's ever meaningless or purely physical, and it occurred to me when I thought that it would be nearly impossible or terribly difficult to engage in it with someone who doesn't speak the same language as one does. And language being what it is, such a repository and vehicle of meaning, then sex itself is an expression of something larger and meaningful whether we realize it or not.

Now I am not attempting to romanticize it beyond what is prudent, the reason I am mentioning it is, sex is an expression of something deeper, some of those deep things aren't always creative or honest, but it can be. Perhaps you could practice getting out of your head, and instead of seeing sex as this abstract requirement for love, try to remember the feeling of hugging someone when they needed a hug, and that's how you expressed sympathy and affection and care, and the other person expressed gratitude.

It's a language that develops when the necessity arises, and it is tied to several genetic and biological drives as well, but those drives are there to jump start something higher.

Another thing regarding sex, well.. I think it's something to enjoy while it's there, because why not? but if you take things forward in a loving relationship, then eventually sex won't be as "fun and essential" as it was when one is young, or as possible due to so many factors that show up as one ages, will love dissipate? or would it adapt because what sex was serving to express remains?

 

[Carl]

Just to slightly change the direction of this thread once again: Sharing an excerpt from an obscure little book I found called Why you're not married yet by Tracy McMillan. Directed towards women, it has a very refreshing perspective.

IMO, this has some importance, as a lot of men in the modern age are coming to completely hate modern women, for their emotionality, fickleness, the sluttiness, but most of all, the complete inability to take responsibility for their actions. Or that because they seem to totally lack the logical capability to deduct that an action leads to a consequence (similar to a psychopath). I see this pure hatred spreading more and more now, and it's deeply worrying.

Of course, I don't think this is built in to females at a fundamental level, but something about the sickness our western society most definitely does raise women like this, as most guys in their 20s can confirm. It's 100% a real phenomenon.

A very harsh message is actually what a lot of people need these days, but women are always immune from it.

Women's self help books are full of "you deserve", and completely lacking in "you need to". If any rejection is faced, it's because the guy is "too insecure", "afraid of commitment", "intimidated by you as a boss b*tch". If a girl cheats, it's the guy's fault for being too controlling or too jealous. Etc.etc.

Obviously it's too little too late, and won't even reach the target audience who needs to hear it, but I thought it was an interesting tidbit to share anyway.

 

[Alejo]

Women's self help books are full of "you deserve", and completely lacking in "you need to". If any rejection is faced, it's because the guy is "too insecure", "afraid of commitment", "intimidated by you as a boss b*tch". If a girl cheats, it's the guy's fault for being too controlling or too jealous. Etc.etc.

Or not controlling/jealous enough, which means he didn't care enough, I mean you can spin it every which way you want in order to come out on top... which is interesting because, I have seen the same discourse being dispensed on men. And it's like, exploiting our own tendency to write narratives for our behavior, where we're always justified for behaving like an child incapable of controlling our impulses, and how that lack of self mastery is... empowering somehow, which is completely the opposite of reality.

What you just wrote reminded me of a quote from Kennedy, which could be paraphrased, it's not about what you're owed as a partner by the world because of your status, attractiveness, etc. It's what can you offer. Not what they can do for you, but what can you do for them.

Which, we live in an STS reality so it's normal for people to see others from the point of view of what could I get from them. But also, putting my tinfoil hat on, if there's a depopulation agenda, this could be part of it, make young people completely self centered and incapable of dating/mating. Girls listen to advice about boys from girls who hate boys, and boys seem to be doing the same, listening to advice about girls from guys who hate girls.

 

[Menna]

Now just can't imagine going on dates etc as the feeling to have any kind of erotic relationship has gone, so to say. Probably because it was one of the things that got me into trouble it the first place.

I just asked a women out she said no. It took me 3-4 months to muster up the courage to do so because I’ve had my heart broken twice.

I could say imagine asking someone out and over the years falling in love all to have your heart broken!

My last heart break was one of the worst pain I felt. I wouldn’t say I was suicidal but in that moment I didn’t care if I lived or died (but I wasn’t going to cause my own death) now 7 years after that heart break after an earlier heartbreak I am ready to attempt to get back into a romantic relationship and subject myself to the chance of that pain again because I want the positive result even though the previous romantic relationships “got me in trouble”

I say all of that to say this… what do you want. Is the lack of libido or the not wanting to be physically intimate is REALLY truly holding you back then on the second or third date I would explain that you want to get to know over time first without being intimate. Develop care/love/intellectual/emotional feeling then at that point let’s say after a few months I would assess the situation.

Being intellectual about erotica or Libido doesn’t help and compounds the problem. If you are being intellectual about how you wont have libido with a women you kill your libido by being neurotic about it. This may be a defense mechanism holding you back for another reason just like it took me alllll summer to ask a women out because of past hurts they didn’t put me in a good place. You have to want the chance of the positive result more than being afraid of the negative result

 

[heinrich]

I just asked a women out she said no. It took me 3-4 months to muster up the courage to do so because I’ve had my heart broken twice.

I could say imagine asking someone out and over the years falling in love all to have your heart broken!

My last heart break was one of the worst pain I felt. I wouldn’t say I was suicidal but in that moment I didn’t care if I lived or died (but I wasn’t going to cause my own death) now 7 years after that heart break after an earlier heartbreak I am ready to attempt to get back into a romantic relationship and subject myself to the chance of that pain again because I want the positive result even though the previous romantic relationships “got me in trouble”

I say all of that to say this… what do you want. Is the lack of libido or the not wanting to be physically intimate is REALLY truly holding you back then on the second or third date I would explain that you want to get to know over time first without being intimate. Develop care/love/intellectual/emotional feeling then at that point let’s say after a few months I would assess the situation.

Being intellectual about erotica or Libido doesn’t help and compounds the problem. If you are being intellectual about how you wont have libido with a women you kill your libido by being neurotic about it. This may be a defense mechanism holding you back for another reason just like it took me alllll summer to ask a women out because of past hurts they didn’t put me in a good place. You have to want the chance of the positive result more than being afraid of the negative result

yes, sexuality is a big problem...

 

[Menna]

yes, sexuality is a big problem...

Depends on what one wants. If two young adults want to experience sex for first time and they are comfortable with each other it can be beneficial.

Sexuality CAN be a big problem.

 

[Mrs. Peel]

Sexuality CAN be a big problem

I remember it being mentioned here that one should be careful who one has sex with because you are basically having sex with every other person your sex partner has been with, energetically speaking, and you could pick up some bad juju.