Ketogenic Diet - Powerful Dietary Strategy for Certain Conditions

[Naturalden]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

Megan

“But in any case I don't know of any reason to restrict protein that much, or to observe those particular ratios. Do you?”

In answer to your question: no. May I ask if your diet has a particular ratio in a general sense?

It's interesting you mention Paul Jaminet. Have you read his series on the dangers of very low carb diets? Do you see any validity in his views?

I have mentioned his book here in this topic, and the "dangers" series of blog posts as well (I think). I have found some of his research to be very useful, although not that part. I suspect that his hypothetical "glucose deficiency" issue is really a composite of other unexplored issues (because he gave up on extremely low carb), or it may be a personal health problem that he has. I have worked through the issues myself, for now, by limiting (but not eliminating) prebiotic foods and adding probiotic (fermented) ones. If I develop the symptoms of his "glucose deficiency" syndrome later on then it may be time for another look.

Jaminet's macronutrient ratio (as well as the one for the OD, as far as I know) is based on assumptions. It reportedly works well for him and his wife, and for his self-selected followers. It's not ketogenic, although he offers a ketogenic variation with higher carbs than what we use here. We are trying to elevate ketone levels, so his recommendations don't really apply.

Interestingly, one of the AHS 2012 presenters (I can't remember her name) discussed treatment of epilepsy in children using ketogenic diet, and she had a variation that was higher in carbs but still effective at preventing seizures. So he is not entirely off-base there (with higher-carb ketogenic diets), although whether any of that applies to what we are doing here -- which is not preventing seizures -- remains to be seen.

Could you please help me understand? . You say, “We are trying to elevate ketone levels.” Do you have a general macronutrient ratio? Could you please throw out some numbers? Thank you

 

[Psalehesost]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

[...]

Could you please help me understand? . You say, “We are trying to elevate ketone levels.” Do you have a general macronutrient ratio? Could you please throw out some numbers? Thank you

If you've been reading this thread, you'll know that: 1) There's pretty much no carbs involved. Hence carbs are not really part of any ratio. 2) There's the idea of limiting protein intake, not supplying more than the body can actually use, with "ideal" body weight as a possible guide. 3) Extra fat and/or bone broth is used to fill energy needs and reach fullness.

How much people eat varies - and some eat more protein, some less, depending on their body, how it works and what they do with it. Some people need and/or tolerate more fat, some less. Bone broth consumption also varies. As such, there's no single, general fat to protein ratio - it's very individual and may also change through time.

 

[fabric]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

[...]

Could you please help me understand? . You say, “We are trying to elevate ketone levels.” Do you have a general macronutrient ratio? Could you please throw out some numbers? Thank you

If you've been reading this thread, you'll know that: 1) There's pretty much no carbs involved. Hence carbs are not really part of any ratio. 2) There's the idea of limiting protein intake, not supplying more than the body can actually use, with "ideal" body weight as a possible guide. 3) Extra fat and/or bone broth is used to fill energy needs and reach fullness.

How much people eat varies - and some eat more protein, some less, depending on their body, how it works and what they do with it. Some people need and/or tolerate more fat, some less. Bone broth consumption also varies. As such, there's no single, general fat to protein ratio - it's very individual and may also change through time.

Hi Naturalden,

I do agree that it varies person to person, but I found that we gotta start somewhere! Generally from what I've read is to start with a 3 to 1 or 4 to 1 ratio of fat to protein. This ration being taken from your caloric needs for the day. So if you needed 1200 Calories (this is just an example), 800 of those calories would come from fat and 400 from protein. So I would work from there as a starting point to find what works best for you.

I originally was eating too much protein (more towards the 3 to 1 ratio) and found that is was slowing down keto-adaptation for me. I then went the other extreme, based on Nora's book Primal Body Primal Mind, which recommended 0.8g of protein per kg body weight, which when compared to my caloric needs it turned it towards almost 90% fat and 10% protein diet which didn't work out too well for me (the small amount of protein would not leave me satiated even when I ate tons of fat, I would get hungry after 3-4 hours). I went to a 4 to 1 ratio and that seems to work great. Not sure if you've read it but I've posted in here earlier regarding this as I was trying to figure out ratios as well.

 

[Aliana]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

Hi aleana. When I`m feeling that need for energy at mid end work day, I eat a spoonful of organic cold pressed coconut oil. The fat gives me a good feeling( not quite like chocolate),but it satisfies the hunger and need for energy if I`m unable to drink bone broth. I know not everyone can tolerate coconut, but it works for me.

Are you still able to tolerate a high intake of fat? That's the fuel your body needs, whether you have it in broth or stock. I have that same crash about 3-4 pm. A nice high-fat breakfast takes me all the way up till then and then it's like a car running out of gas. I keep some half-litre jars of canned bone broth in the fridge at work to eat when I feel the crash is looming. Half the jar with half the fat that collected at the top is enough to get me home, and keeps me from getting cranky.

I don't have the adrenal issues you describe, but stock/fat intake when your energy drops might not hurt.

Thank you Nancy2feathers and herondancer for the suggestions! I tried some coconut oil this afternoon and drank a cup of decaf tea - and that seemed to help. I was tired but did not have that nervous exhaustion feeling. I also finally understand why meat stock is better than bone broth when first healing the gut. Obviously I am one of those who is sensitive to glutamates - which is not surprising considering that MSG always affected me badly! Duh!!! Going to keep some of the meat stock in the fridge at work and see how that works. Leaving off the bacon for now, ate some salmon instead with lots of butter and I was not hungry until late afternoon.

Also reduced the dose of hydro-cortisone to 1/2 tablet and took that right after lunch. I think that helped as well, I may just not need that much and taking it when my levels are lowest may be the best thing. Also taking small amount of benadryl to help sleep and hopefully counteract the histamine release.

 

[Ollie]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

...Going to keep some of the meat stock in the fridge at work and see how that works. Leaving off the bacon for now, ate some salmon instead with lots of butter and I was not hungry until late afternoon.
...

You may like to smother the salmon (or any seafood) with olive oil, as well as eating it with lots of butter. I have found this to be highly effective with seafood consumption.

 

[WIN 52]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

Re elimination of toxic waste!
It seems for me, once I have supplied a better balance of nutrients, my body isn't searching as hard for the ones it needed in the waste. It seems a more balanced intake is important so when the toxins in the waste are eliminated from the body they are not searched for nutrients the body desperately needs, thus some being re-absorbed, before being flushed out. At least that is what it feels like is going on.

Day 2 on C0Q10: Why did I resist this taking this product?(programming?)

I have come to the roughly 4 to 1 fat ratio by experimenting, also.( I don't weigh portions, but I have worked as a chef in the food industry so I just work with approximate portions. If you work with this daily the portion sizes become familiar.)

 

[Naturalden]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

Fabric,

Thank you so much for the explanation and the “Keto Diet Serving Calculator.” This helps greatly with my understanding. I've read Primal Body Primal Mind and much of the literature extolling the virtues of the ketogenic diet. It seems almost too good to be true but I still have a few concerns before jumping into this. I feel the metabolic rate is an important factor in health. An efficient metabolism is supported by active thyroid hormone (triiodothyronine, or T3). From what I understand T3 has the largest impact in the production of carbon dioxide which appears to be a central feature in resisting stress and maintaining health. Does the diet have any effect on the thyroid? I'm not sure. It's something to look into. I'm also concerned of the possible stress this diet may put on the body. Is this an unfounded concern? Again, I'm not sure. I have followed a low carb diet for many years but have never went zero carbs. I can't remember who said the following but I find it so true, “If you aren’t confused about health and nutrition, then you haven’t studied it long enough or deeply enough.” Again, thank you for the info.

 

[nicklebleu]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

Fabric,

Thank you so much for the explanation and the “Keto Diet Serving Calculator.” This helps greatly with my understanding. I've read Primal Body Primal Mind and much of the literature extolling the virtues of the ketogenic diet. It seems almost too good to be true but I still have a few concerns before jumping into this. I feel the metabolic rate is an important factor in health. An efficient metabolism is supported by active thyroid hormone (triiodothyronine, or T3). From what I understand T3 has the largest impact in the production of carbon dioxide which appears to be a central feature in resisting stress and maintaining health. Does the diet have any effect on the thyroid? I'm not sure. It's something to look into. I'm also concerned of the possible stress this diet may put on the body. Is this an unfounded concern? Again, I'm not sure. I have followed a low carb diet for many years but have never went zero carbs. I can't remember who said the following but I find it so true, “If you aren’t confused about health and nutrition, then you haven’t studied it long enough or deeply enough.” Again, thank you for the info.

Fabric,

If tou read through the entire thread all these answers (and more) are being answered. I agree that it is very important to really know what you are doing and what to expect before making major changes to your diet.

For me the changes have been all positive - to say the least, and research indicates major benefits as well.

 

[fabric]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

No problem Naturalden!

Hey Nicklebleu, you quoted Naturalden but were addressing me, so was a little confused by your comment. Either way I 100% agree and have also had very positive results from the dietary changes. It's been a slow process but definitely worth it

 

[nicklebleu]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

No problem Naturalden!

Hey Nicklebleu, you quoted Naturalden but were addressing me, so was a little confused by your comment. Either way I 100% agree and have also had very positive results from the dietary changes. It's been a slow process but definitely worth it

Ooops! Sorry for the mixup ...
:(

 

[Eva]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

I'm now in the 5th week, on 0 carbs.
I have been having conventional bacon this past week for lack of a better alternative, eggs and fish stock - fried salmon.

I measured ketone levels today in the afternoon and it's 3.9mmol/L , and glucose, 4 hours after eating was 64mg/dl.

I'm having far less palpitations while resting, although I do "feel" my heart pumping at the slightest exertion.
Sleeping is better as well, I seem to fall asleep far easier after POTS and I don't wake up during the night the last few days. With all the sleeping fluctuations and insomnia that's plagued me ever since I remember myself though, I've no idea if this will last or not. But here's to hoping.

I've lost a good amount of weight too, although I can't say how much yet. I'm going to get a body mass reading soon to see how this diet has affected muscle weight and fluid retention - I used to have 2 extra kgr of muscle mass and 4kgr retention.

Today I received pastured meat and some lamb and pork marrow bones, so I expect my diet to become more stable this week when I'll have a good amount of stock. I consider trying broth as well when I get my hands on a decent canner/pressure cooker.

I also have liposomal Vit C now which I'll start taking from tomorrow, to see how that affects my readings in a week.

 

[LQB]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

Just got this e-mail from a friend:

Did you catch this interview with Thomas Seygried -- appeared this morning on Mercola's website. Talks about not only reducing glycose [glucose] but also glutamine and there are evidently several synergistic drugs that can be given, in conjunction with the CR, that will further inhibit glycolosis and therefore enhance both ketone production and absorption by cells. To your knowledge, are any of these adjunctive therapies OTC? Interesting!

http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2013/03/10/ketogenic-diet.aspx?e_cid=20130310_SNL_Art_1&utm_source=snl&utm_medium=email&utm_content=art1&utm_campaign=20130310

This is a very good video - stay tuned as a second video with Seygried comes up automatically. 2Deoxy-Glucose is the adjunct that is applied after the therapeutic fast and introduction of the KD.

Added: I think this is the stuff here: _http://www.sigmaaldrich.com/catalog/product/sigma/D8375?lang=en&region=US (very expensive)

 

[Naturalden]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

Fabric,

Thank you so much for the explanation and the “Keto Diet Serving Calculator.” This helps greatly with my understanding. I've read Primal Body Primal Mind and much of the literature extolling the virtues of the ketogenic diet. It seems almost too good to be true but I still have a few concerns before jumping into this. I feel the metabolic rate is an important factor in health. An efficient metabolism is supported by active thyroid hormone (triiodothyronine, or T3). From what I understand T3 has the largest impact in the production of carbon dioxide which appears to be a central feature in resisting stress and maintaining health. Does the diet have any effect on the thyroid? I'm not sure. It's something to look into. I'm also concerned of the possible stress this diet may put on the body. Is this an unfounded concern? Again, I'm not sure. I have followed a low carb diet for many years but have never went zero carbs. I can't remember who said the following but I find it so true, “If you aren’t confused about health and nutrition, then you haven’t studied it long enough or deeply enough.” Again, thank you for the info.

Fabric,

If tou read through the entire thread all these answers (and more) are being answered. I agree that it is very important to really know what you are doing and what to expect before making major changes to your diet.

For me the changes have been all positive - to say the least, and research indicates major benefits as well.

I have read Some of the thread. I've obviously missed a lot of material. I need to start at the beginning and read Every page. I will be doing this in the next few days. Thank you.

 

[WIN 52]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

The C0Q10 has stabilized my heart and seems to have reduced the discomfort to a minimum under strain.

Since not taking the stroke drugs(5 days now), my body seems to be operating in a more normal state. This is the first time since 2005 that I have been able to make this observation. Previous attempts were met with discomfort in my heart area. The Dr's advice was to increase the drugs, which I refused to do. We will see what happens as those drugs make their way out of my system.

Why have I continued, with all the problems that surfaced?
The one thing that has kept me going is the results, which far outweighed the negative aspects. These negative aspects seem to relate directly to imbalances in the system(body). We need to strive for balance. This is difficult unless you understand just what that balance is, with relation to your specific physical conditions.

For me, the recovery from my right side being paralyzed in a stroke(2005) and having limited feeling and movement since, has improved greatly. When I went full keto, this rejuvenation process sped up despite the discomfort I was experiencing. On one hand things were very encouraging, yet other things pointed to making a wrong choice.(Apparently, both observations were correct!)

Now, there is no mistaking that my body needed help in the form of C0Q10. It seems I was heavily programmed against taking this product. I would read about it and say "I should try this" but when I got to the store it almost seemed that I froze up/locked up and left without buying this. I should have gotten a clue from the Betaine HCL and the resistance I had to overcome before taking this product also.

I just heard, "all are lessons"! My question is why do we have to keep learning the same things/making the same mistakes, over and over?
When it comes to a point where this becomes a life or death situation, can those lessons help? I also understand that my non violent nature of today(like this since childhood) has been tempered by the violent nature of previous experiences in the physical state. In the core of my being, I know/understand/believe that violence against any fellow human is not what we should do here.(Well at least some of us)! So, does all the violent behavior on display today merely sum up to lessons and there is nothing I can do about that other than make my way through the nightmare?

 

[Laura]

Re: Ketogenic Diet - Path To Transformation?

WIN, I strongly urge you to not stop taking your heart medication without medical supervision. You can take many supplements along with prescribed medicine and then, if your doctor sees enough improvement, he may reduce or eliminate your dosages, but do NOT do this without good, local, medical advice.