"Life Without Bread"

[Oxajil]

I was wondering. Is a high fat, somewhat high protein, low carb diet suitable for everybody?

I'd say probably not. But only because, I think, as a result of cumulative damage from generation to generation, or as a result of cumulative damage over the years during one's lifetime.

Do different cultures have a different constitution?

I think that's maybe possible to some extent. But there has been a lot of mixing going on, so it's hard to say. Which diet is best suitable, therefore (to me), depends on the person. Every person has a different past and lineage, and I think genetics, among other factors, plays a big role. For example if a certain group of people continue to eat plastic foods, then after some generations, there is a high chance that the next baby will have to go through all kinds of deficiencies/diseases or genetic impairments, and so a diet like this might not be totally possible to pursue for that person.

I am not white but am from a country in Asia, yet this diet is best for me. (Even though most of the people in my lineage ate a lot of rice, beans, bread and dairy, which I can't have at all right now). I did get a bit lucky, because my ancestors didn't have pesticides or any of those things, everything they ate was organic, and I think that spared me some damage. However the high intake of dairy of these people could be the reason of me being highly sensitive to casein.

The thing is that our bodies I think, if mostly unharmed, operate in the same more-or-less way. And I think that, in the very end, we all share a common group of ancestors, and these pre-agricultural ancestors followed a low/zero-carb diet, which is why I think that most people nowadays would benefit greatly from this diet, if their bodies would enable them.

 

[Gertrudes]

Hi,

I was wondering. Is a high fat, somewhat high protein, low carb diet suitable for everybody?

Hi Mariama, as Oxajil mentioned, it may not be ideal for everyone as a result of cumulative damage. People with kidney disease, for example, will have to be very careful with the level of protein ingested, others have done irreparable damage that needs a more careful approach. Nonetheless, I would say that the closer the diet to high fat low carb , the better for everyone.
Note that this isn't a high protein diet. Primal Body Primal mind goes into detail about that, and you can also find more details earlier in this thread. Excess protein is not healthy, the recommended dose is as low as 0.8g of protein per Kg of ideal body weight.

Do different cultures have a different constitution?
What strikes me (and I admit I am fairly sensitive that way) is that books like Life without Bread and Primal Body, Primal Mind were written by white people. Was their research based on a cross-cultural population? (I haven't read PBPM yet.) I suspect that Lutz's research in Austria involved (a majority of) white people.
I myself am white, but have friends (one is from Indonesia) that are not. Is there any difference at all?

There may be a difference in terms of how certain populations have developed a greater tolerance for dairy or grains, because they have been consuming it for longer. Some studies seem to indicate that. However, note that it is greater tolerance, which is very different from ideal fuel. I can't remember specifically about Life without bread as I'm starting to mix up the books that I read, but I do remember that research on a carb versus fat/protein diet has been done to great extent amongst various populations and ethnicities in the world. Dr. Weston Price for one, studied the health of indigenous people in several continents and found out that besides the absence of processed food being strictly linked to greater health, populations who had a high fat moderate protein diet always did better in terms of longevity and immunity then populations with a carb based diet.

If you read the chapter on Eukaryotic versus Prokaryotic cells in the Life without Bread (also discussed in Primal Body Primal Mind), I think that you'll also understand why our cells are not deigned to have glucose as their major fuel source. Sure, you can do it, but it is far from ideal.

In the end we all have the very same ancestral roots, and we're talking about millions of years of a high fat, moderate protein diet. That is how our stone age fathers have developed. In fact, with the introduction of agriculture, studies show teeth and bone degeneration, as well as loss of height. So, all in all, I think that despite genes we are all part of the same tree. We're different branches, but have the same roots. We all have insulin, and insulin plays the same role in each of us, glucose leads to excess insulin, excess insulin leads to great damage, and that is something that none of us can escape, osit.

I have read a bit fairly quickly about the blood type diet, but was wondering the same thing. Was the research based on a cross-cultural population or does there need to be?

Some members have followed the Blood type diet for a while and it didn't seem to bring great results. Once they tested for individual food sensitivities, those seemed to randomly fall in line with what D'Alamo suggested. Personally, I don't trust it, but that's me.

I would suggest you to read Primal Body, I think that it will answer your questions with great detail.

 

[mcb]

...I have found that most white people that I know (myself included) use a white frame of reference. I may be wrong. Just my two thoughts.

I agree that the "white frame of reference" can be a problem" but I don't think it is in this case. Our nutritional problems are linked to the development of agriculture in ways that can be hard to follow. Agriculture "struck" different populations and races at different times, but it eventually affected nearly everyone. With it came its companion, overpopulation (not the other way around as some authors still contend). In the face of overpopulation eating mainly plants could then become a "solution" to the problem.

Cultures have adapted (each in its own way) to this fundamental change in diet through the death that came to those that were less able to change. Some authors refer to the mass die-offs that were believed to have occurred, although I haven't seen much detail about this so far. Evolution could eventually lead to humans that are equipped to deal with the underlying issues of high glucose and anti-nutrients, but "eventually" has not yet come and the the final product could well be a less-aware, less-capable human more suited to 4th density STS needs. And indeed that may well have already happened with the adaptations that have occurred already.

Even with the increase in plant foods, until now cultures retained their appreciation for high-quality foods -- particularly organ meats -- of the sort that fueled human evolution in the first place. With that element disappearing (it's all but gone here in the US with the heavy reliance on toxic processed foods by much of the population), humanity seems (to me) to be on the way out too.

One book I read recently, The End of Food by Paul Roberts, highlighted an interesting scenario, though I don't believe the author was fully aware of the implications. The profit/production-driven modern global food system is highly vulnerable to unexpected events, such as bad weather and outbreaks of disease in crops and animals. It is entirely likely that the system will fail at some point, and this could leave us with a severe shortage of (grain-fed) meat and the prospect that vegetarianism (and grains in particular) would again be offered as a "solution."

 

[RedFox]

Just wanted to add (if people hadn't thought of this already) a really cheap (in my case free) way of getting more fat. Pork scratchings!

I ask my butcher if he had any pork rind, and he gave me a load for free (asked for it to be chopped into 1 inch strips).
Placed them in a dish, covered them with sea salt and put them in a hot over for an hour.
The result is gorgeous (especially with added salt)! Plus it made 150g of organic lard that I put into a jar.

Can't rate them highly enough!

One note of caution, you need strong teeth for these. Which brings up an interesting point.....I found eating them really easy yet my parents struggled so it seems the paleo diet is really good at strengthening teeth.

 

[ana]

Can't rate them highly enough!

Yep! I do buy them in the pork shop already prepared to eat, (fried in its own fat), and are delicious!

 

[aragorn]

I just got off the phone with my sister, and she told me that they've just found out that their oldest daughter (16 years) has anorexia. My sister had no idea about it, but lately the daughter, lets call her Joan, has become more and more tired, weaker and depressed (crying a lot). Finally some days ago Joan told her mother that she's been avoiding eating for 1,5 years now, sometimes throwing up after eating too. And that the friends she hang out with are all doing it - because they want to look "good"! Well, nothing exactly new here, we live in a mad and ponerized society, but still when my sister told me this I felt such sadness and anger at all this manipulation that is going on.

Joan is in bad shape, from what I could tell. Now, to make things even worse there's the fact that my sister AND her husband are doctors, my sister now specialicing in psychiatry and her husband is an ear and throat specialist. I say worse, because as you've probably know, the majority of doctors have no training in nutritional science and they are self assured that they know everything about health . Yeah, right. When I heard that Joan has dropped all carbs and NOT eating ANY fat I got really alarmed; I strategically told my sister that me and my wife have both reduced carbs heavily but increased the fat intake - since according to all studies going low carb and low fat is really dangerous. It was like talking to a wall - no response.

You know what she then told me: "Yeah, you know I've been trying to sneak in HONEY in her food...", like that would help. Joan is complaining of low thinking capacity, and she really should eat FAT! I repeated that fat would be very important for her to take. No response.

Adding to my bewilderment my sister then said: "You know, I see these cases of anorexia all the time in my job. But, what makes them different from Joan's case is that they all come from a dysfunctional family..." Well, I just couldn't say anything at that point. Because the fact is that my sister and her family are living this "jet set" superficial life, where the kids are given fat free milk, margarine, wheat bread etc. and they all eat like birds. The second oldest daughter has suffered from anxiety and panic attacks since childhood and the father of the family is always just planning what item, car, boat to buy or fix the house.

Sorry for my rant, but I just had to get this out. I'm thinking of sending my sister some links, but that would probably do no good. Next week they are going together and see a psychiatrist who is specialiced in anorexia. My sister is sure that they will receive good guidance and nutritional recommendations. I'm not holding my breath, geez....

 

[Laura]

Hi,

I was wondering. Is a high fat, somewhat high protein, low carb diet suitable for everybody?
Do different cultures have a different constitution?
What strikes me (and I admit I am fairly sensitive that way) is that books like Life without Bread and Primal Body, Primal Mind were written by white people. Was their research based on a cross-cultural population? (I haven't read PBPM yet.) I suspect that Lutz's research in Austria involved (a majority of) white people.
I myself am white, but have friends (one is from Indonesia) that are not. Is there any difference at all?
I have read a bit fairly quickly about the blood type diet, but was wondering the same thing. Was the research based on a cross-cultural population or does there need to be?

I have found that most white people that I know (myself included) use a white frame of reference. I may be wrong. Just my two thoughts.

I don't think there's any real genetic differences between whites and blacks as your question might suggest. Black people are genetically closer to Europeans than either are to Asians.

 

[Gertrudes]

Can't rate them highly enough!

I'm totally with you there, I love pork scratchings!

One note of caution, you need strong teeth for these. Which brings up an interesting point.....I found eating them really easy yet my parents struggled so it seems the paleo diet is really good at strengthening teeth.

I'll have to ask my partner how he does them, but I have very sensitive teeth and can't eat anything too hard, the pork scratchings he does are either crispy or soft, and very easily breakable with your teeth. I know that he fries them but will ask him for the specifics of the technique.

 

[Gertrudes]

I just got off the phone with my sister, and she told me that they've just found out that their oldest daughter (16 years) has anorexia.

I'm really sorry to hear this Aragorn. It is heartbreaking to watch someone destroying her own health like that...

Adding to my bewilderment my sister then said: "You know, I see these cases of anorexia all the time in my job. But, what makes them different from Joan's case is that they all come from a dysfunctional family..."

If your sister is in such denial I have doubts that she will be opened to hear your dietary advice. I do hope that I'm wrong though, as one thing won't necessarily lead to the other.
But, I have to wonder, what does she thinks has caused her daughter to behave like that?!

Next week they are going together and see a psychiatrist who is specialiced in anorexia. My sister is sure that they will receive good guidance and nutritional recommendations. I'm not holding my breath, geez....

Taking her to a psychiatrist seems to me a very good idea. I'm glad that your niece opened herself up and is willing to find help. That is a big step.
Hopefully this therapist will be able to help her and, if he/she is the right one, I think that it would be a better idea for your nice to carry on with individual sessions by herself. But that is up to them, of course.

 

[Approaching Infinity]

Next week they are going together and see a psychiatrist who is specialiced in anorexia. My sister is sure that they will receive good guidance and nutritional recommendations. I'm not holding my breath, geez....

Taking her to a psychiatrist seems to me a very good idea. I'm glad that your niece opened herself up and is willing to find help. That is a big step.
Hopefully this therapist will be able to help her and, if he/she is the right one, I think that it would be a better idea for your nice to carry on with individual sessions by herself. But that is up to them, of course.

I haven't read it, but I've heard that Julia Ross' book The Mood Cure has some good protocols for eating disorders. Can anyone who has read the book confirm this? Maybe they/she will be receptive to that approach...

 

[Approaching Infinity]

Hi,

I was wondering. Is a high fat, somewhat high protein, low carb diet suitable for everybody?
Do different cultures have a different constitution?
What strikes me (and I admit I am fairly sensitive that way) is that books like Life without Bread and Primal Body, Primal Mind were written by white people. Was their research based on a cross-cultural population? (I haven't read PBPM yet.) I suspect that Lutz's research in Austria involved (a majority of) white people.
I myself am white, but have friends (one is from Indonesia) that are not. Is there any difference at all?
I have read a bit fairly quickly about the blood type diet, but was wondering the same thing. Was the research based on a cross-cultural population or does there need to be?

I have found that most white people that I know (myself included) use a white frame of reference. I may be wrong. Just my two thoughts.

I don't think there's any real genetic differences between whites and blacks as your question might suggest. Black people are genetically closer to Europeans than either are to Asians.

Plus, the Maasai were one of the groups studied by Weston Price, and they ate almost all animal products, the majority of which was fat...

 

[mcb]

I just got off the phone with my sister, and she told me that they've just found out that their oldest daughter (16 years) has anorexia...

The Vegetarian Myth mentions a possible connection between consuming soy processing byproducts and anorexia (SPI = Soy Protein Isolate).

Not only does the manufacture of SPI create toxins, but the alkaline solutions, hot temperatures, and high pressure also destroy the structure of some of the amino acids, rendering them useless. Alkaline baths in particular result in low iron levels, and dramatically increase copper levels. Compromised zinc-copper ratios may be a causative factor in a range of mental illnesses, including depression, anxiety, and anorexia and in diseases like diabetes and rheumatoid arthritis.[257]

Keith, Lierre (2010-06-03). The Vegetarian Myth (p. 227). PM Press. Kindle Edition.

The endnote numbering is messed up in the Kindle edition so I don't know what endnote 257 refers to. She also mentions vegetarianism as a cause of anorexia, stemming from tryptophan deficiency.

 

[mcb]

...When I heard that Joan has dropped all carbs and NOT eating ANY fat I got really alarmed; I strategically told my sister that me and my wife have both reduced carbs heavily but increased the fat intake - since according to all studies going low carb and low fat is really dangerous...

Hi carbs combined with high fat is dangerous. I haven't read that low carb, low fat is especially dangerous until you start to starve to death. Somebody correct me if I am wrong.

So she is eating only protein, or just isn't eating much at all? Low carb, relatively low fat, and moderate protein is a low-carb weight-loss diet -- not dangerous by itself. If you are not trying to lose body fat, however, and your fat intake is low, that would not be good, especially if you are already thin.

 

[aragorn]

...When I heard that Joan has dropped all carbs and NOT eating ANY fat I got really alarmed; I strategically told my sister that me and my wife have both reduced carbs heavily but increased the fat intake - since according to all studies going low carb and low fat is really dangerous...

Hi carbs combined with high fat is dangerous. I haven't read that low carb, low fat is especially dangerous until you start to starve to death. Somebody correct me if I am wrong.

So she is eating only protein, or just isn't eating much at all? Low carb, relatively low fat, and moderate protein is a low-carb weight-loss diet -- not dangerous by itself. If you are not trying to lose body fat, however, and your fat intake is low, that would not be good, especially if you are already thin.

Thanks Megan, you've got a point there, but I'm not sure where you're getting this "relatively low fat" not being dangerous. What would be the benefit of eating relatively small amounts of healthy fat unless you're a "carboholic"(in which case you're already destroying your heath)? Of course, I don't know what amount of fat you're having in mind when you're saying this.

It is my understanding that when you cut the carbs you must increase the fat intake, because the body and especially the brain has to get it's energy from somewhere. That is when the body switches from utilizing fat instead of carbs, and one of the results is weight loss - in a natural way, until you reach your "equilibrium". How much we loose weight seems to vary between individuals. In a case with a healthy and "robust" individual who has eaten at least some saturated fats, decreasing both carbs and fat intake for a while would not be lethal, but certainly it would have negative psychological and psychological effects. The amount of carbs and fat depend also on if you're aiming for ketosis so that the body can produce ketones for your benefit, but I'm sure you know this.

In the case of Joan however, there's the fact that she has not eaten any healthy fats for most of her life. The whole family is hysterically scared of animal fat. It is really, really sad to see that even the three youngest girls (there are 5 of them) who are between 4-10 years, are scared to death of fat. If someone would put a slice of bacon on their plate, they would probably faint or throw up. All the girls are very skinny and the youngest one, being 4, is already showing signs of not wanting to eat anything.

I can't say for sure what Joan is eating at the moment, but from what I could tell she isn't eating much of anything at all. Being already very slim, this has to be very dangerous. I've seen individuals with a background of bad anorexia, and they have completely destroyed their body - walking with crutches etc. I've sent an email to my sister with a link to a discussion program where they brilliantly expose the "fat being dangerous" myth (it's in Swedish) and also talking about the Low Carb High Fat diet. I'm leaving it at that, staying tuned to if there's any response. Sigh, they have to learn their lessons, but observing the process is sometimes so very hard. :(

 

[mcb]

Thanks Megan, you've got a point there, but I'm not sure where you're getting this "relatively low fat" not being dangerous. What would be the benefit of eating relatively small amounts of healthy fat unless you're a "carboholic"(in which case you're already destroying your heath)? Of course, I don't know what amount of fat you're having in mind when you're saying this.

Probably not the best choice of words, but it is "relative." During weight loss (induction, OWL) you usually determine fat restriction empirically -- eat enough to satisfy while still losing weight. This is still "high fat" relative to a "low fat diet" and it includes saturated fat and cholesterol, but it is limited fat intake relative to "maintenance."

...Are you eating too many calories? Although you don’t have to count calories on Atkins, if you’re overdoing the protein and fat, you may be taking in too many calories. We know, we said that you don’t have to count calories on Atkins, and the vast majority of people don’t, but you may need a reality check...

We have seen some evidence here that this group does not typify "the vast majority." According to the book, the vast majority can readily drop directly to 20 g/day of carbs without problems, but a fair number of us were not able to. It took me several months to get down there (I am down to about 15 g/d except when traveling). Weight loss has been equally challenging and it has taken me a couple of months to find a level of fat intake that will allow me to reach my target weight (high 170's) within my lifetime -- and I am not entirely exaggerating about that.

My housemate, on the other hand, was able to start an ordinary Atkins diet a couple of months or so ago and lose weight quickly. She skipped induction and went straight to OWL. I don't think there is any danger in limiting fat intake so as to lose weight, as long as the fat you do eat is of high quality (NO vegetable oil!).

It is my understanding that when you cut the carbs you must increase the fat intake, because the body and especially the brain has to get it's energy from somewhere. That is when the body switches from utilizing fat instead of carbs, and one of the results is weight loss - in a natural way, until you reach your "equilibrium". How much we loose weight seems to vary between individuals. In a case with a healthy and "robust" individual who has eaten at least some saturated fats, decreasing both carbs and fat intake for a while would not be lethal, but certainly it would have negative psychological and psychological effects. The amount of carbs and fat depend also on if you're aiming for ketosis so that the body can produce ketones for your benefit, but I'm sure you know this.

If you had already been severely restricting fat, especially saturated fat, then you would need to increase fat to provide energy that had previously been coming from carbs. If you are overweight then it is not such an issue, because you would be carrying a fair amount of fat in reserve. You need enough calorie intake, however, to keep your body from going into "energy conservation mode" so that you can lose weight. That energy needs to come from fat rather than protein, because excess protein can convert to carbs.

The picture is different with anorexia, and I have not read a book yet that covers the topic. A low-carb diet should be beneficial but there is the problem that people are literally afraid of dying from eating saturated fat and cholesterol. When you don't have a normal or excessive store of body fat, you need to be eating LOTS of fat just to maintain body weight. Eating protein instead will prevent starvation, but without sufficient accompanying fat intake there may be a danger of protein poisoning which, now that I think of it, may be what you were referring to. This is rare, but anorexics push the limits of what the body can handle.

The only thing I can suggest is to offer an example. I have been eating lots of saturated fat and cholesterol and I am feeling better than I have in years, while losing weight without going hungry. My lipid panel numbers are not "ideal" but they are pretty normal for someone on a low-carb diet and my TG/LDL-C ratio is excellent (an estimate of "fluffy" LDL) even if my doctor doesn't know what it means. I tell other people I know about that, and I get shocked looks from them. Isn't that dangerous? And I explain -- a little. Not much; they can't take it in. It is reality-shattering.

In the case of Joan however, there's the fact that she has not eaten any healthy fats for most of her life. The whole family is hysterically scared of animal fat. It is really, really sad to see that even the three youngest girls (there are 5 of them) who are between 4-10 years, are scared to death of fat. If someone would put a slice of bacon on their plate, they would probably faint or throw up. All the girls are very skinny and the youngest one, being 4, is already showing signs of not wanting to eat anything.

I wonder if the low-fat, avoid-saturated-fat-and-cholesterol mass programming isn't a primary cause of anorexia? I haven't read anything to that effect so far (and I am taking a break from "food" books at the moment) but it seems like the negative impact of low saturated fat intake -- as well as insufficient or damaged omega-3 fat -- on brain function could lead to such symptoms. Even just a fish oil supplement could make a difference.

I can't say for sure what Joan is eating at the moment, but from what I could tell she isn't eating much of anything at all. Being already very slim, this has to be very dangerous. I've seen individuals with a background of bad anorexia, and they have completely destroyed their body - walking with crutches etc. I've sent an email to my sister with a link to a discussion program where they brilliantly expose the "fat being dangerous" myth (it's in Swedish) and also talking about the Low Carb High Fat diet. I'm leaving it at that, staying tuned to if there's any response. Sigh, they have to learn their lessons, but observing the process is sometimes so very hard. :(

The anorexia itself is a very real concern, apart from any consideration of carbs, fat, and protein. There are times when you can make a difference (and I was able to do that with my housemate before her doctor did her in), but it is vital that you match your response to your sister's needs. Sending an email about fat not being dangerous, for example, may make perfect sense to you but if she doesn't respond positively to it then you should think about some other approach.

I can't even begin to guess what might work, and if it weren't someone close to you then it might well not even be a good idea. All I can suggest is that you need to be totally responsive to her, not pressing your own ideas if they aren't received well. It can't be about you, or esoteric matters or anything of that sort. I don't know but it may be your lesson as well.