This post is long. It is a sincere effort to clarify my background, reasons for posting in this thread, and understanding regarding "physicality" and "spirituality," detoxification, and other topics that have arisen as a consequence of my posting here. I ask that those who responded critically to my posts in this thread please read it through, or at least the first two sections and then the individual response. I would like to try to resolve differences of definition and perspective to see if/where substantive disagreement remains.
Please understand that, as a newbie to the board, I am still learning specialized vocabulary and concepts that many here may take for granted. The flip side of this is an admission that I may have jumped into discussions without the specific definitional and conceptual framework that discussions here assume as a foundation. As a reference, you might consider Ouspensky learning about the specialized uses of “to be” and “to do” in his work with Gurdjieff’s group.
[For anyone interested, a previous thread demonstrates fairly well the confusion that can arise from differences between my personal or “outside” understanding of a definition/concept and a different or more specialized group understanding here – the difference then was in the use and conceptual content of word “cynic.” I’ll note that it wasn’t all just a misunderstanding, however. I was indeed guilty at one point of mischaracterization. Ref: http://cassiopaea.org/forum/index.php?topic=21483.0]
About Practicality and Physicality
Luke, you're correct. I can be impractical.
However, I can also be very practical. It can be hard to tell where one ends and another begins. Similarly, it can be hard to tell whether someone should pay more or less attention to the physical side of existence. I think a number of the people who responded critically to my first two posts may be considering the relative importance of "physicality" from angles and backgrounds very different than my own.
You see, I never was a Magician. In terms of personality, using the framework of Gurdjieff's "Tale of the Evil Magician," I would be an Eagle. So I have certainly been overly "abstract," but even so, logic can make very concrete demands.
For a time, I was extremely concerned with physical preparations for what intuition, research and analysis led me to believe are likely physical difficulties ahead. I tried to indicate this in my initial post when I said:
I write all of this with great sympathy, because I too have experienced worry, despair, and morbid curiosity about the physical suffering likely to come. For a period of about a year, I suffered intensely in my concern for the physical well-being of others. I encouraged family and friends to prepare for catastrophe. I prepared myself to provide assistance. I often wept over what I assumed would be the deaths of millions or billions. Eventually, however, I realized my efforts and my empathy were operating on the wrong level, and that I was feeding a culture of fear and survivalism.
When I say that I prepared myself to provide assistance, I mean things like the following:
- Training in first aid
- Training as an emergency responder
- Learning a variety of survival skills for both urban and wilderness environments
- Gathering, labeling, and storing supplies in various places and in preparation for various possible emergencies
- Creating maps (to resources, for various modes of transportation, etc.)
- Storing useful information in various places and in various formats -- computers, hard drives, disks, USB, books, folders, etc.
- I was already in excellent physical condition, and I made it a point to stay so.
As you can see, somewhat "abstract" concerns led to very concrete, practical actions. Some or even many of them may prove useful, but my obsessing, my "consistent worries" about future physical insecurity, collapsed my awareness and made me suffer needlessly. With this experience as background, I saw others who seemed to have similar obsessions or "worries," so I posted:
Over the past month, I've seen a number of threads that seem to have it all backwards. Questions about "Safe Belts," discussions about money and employment during an economic collapse, talk about hoarding food and cleaning shotguns, consistent worries about detoxification -- can we take a moment to realize how deeply these discussions can get lost in the realm of worldly ("A") influences?
Just now I added the italics to "can" to show that I never proposed that these discussions "do" necessarily get lost in the realm of worldly ("A") influences. I don't think that at all. Here is the gist of my first post in this thread, boiled down to a single sentence:
Based on a number of recent threads, SOME posters might be OVERLY concerned with their physical security.
Can we agree that this sometimes happens? I had the following two excerpts from the C's in mind:
"Cometary Showers said:
Q: (L) Does this mean that all of this running around and hopping and jumping to go here and go there and do this and do that is…
A: That is strictly 3rd level thinking.
[quote author="The Great Cycle of Life"]
Q: (L) Our anticipation can constrict the channel when we ask for information to which we have an emotional attachment?
A: Yes.
Q: (L) So, we have to be completely uncaring whether we get it or not, so to speak?
A: Happy-go-lucky attitude helps. As you were before.
Q: (L) So, as long as we are worried, tense, anticipatory, and attached to the idea, we constrict the flow?
A: Yes.
[/quote]
As with the C's, so with our own understanding and ability to "read the signs". No need to make yourself into a nervous wreck. That was the point of the Zen story. Don't cut your arm off to pacify your mind. Rather, open to experience and act accordingly. Using terms I thought many here would find familiar, I said:
Isn't the whole idea that we will help "hold down the frequency"? I gently suggest that means being open to experience and standing for consciousness come what may
So I was approaching the issue I intended to highlight, i.e. being overly concerned with physical security, as someone who was indeed, for a certain period, overly concerned with physical security. The question arises: Did my first post project my own previous struggles onto others here? I think it did, partially. At the same time, my personal experience probably helped me recognize similar thought patterns in others.
A second question that arises is this: Did my pendulum swing too far the other way, i.e. did I go from being overly concerned to being insufficiently concerned? It’s possible. I make it a point to take care of myself, and to continue to seek mind-body integration not only through meditation and prayer, but also through exercise and nutrition.
Health and fitness were my profession for a time, and I’ve been serious about them, meaning a great deal of personal experimentation, since I was a teenager. That also means that I know enough to know I have more to learn.
Now, my earlier question about projecting my own experiences into the thread does cut both ways. To the responders, did your experiences with “love and light,” Magician, or YCYOR types influence how you read my posts, possibly resulting in certain assumptions about my thinking that may, in fact, be incorrect?
What I never said, What I did say
Some of the responses seem to misinterpret me, put words in my mouth, or make strawmen out of more nuanced positions. Here are some things I NEVER SAID, compared to what I did, in fact, say.
I never said this: The body and mind are separate and do not interrelate.
I did say this (first post):
It's true that we live in a 3D world, and equally true that "physicality" generally mediates our experience of "spirituality". [2/14/2011: Note the quotation marks. Those are to indicate that physicality and spirituality are not actually separate, though they are useful categories of analysis.]
And this (second post):
Looking at my previous post, you'll see that I note early on that physicality generally mediates spiritual experience, and so is an important component of awareness.
I never said this: If we pay attention to consciousness, we can ignore our physical bodies.
I did say this (second post):
maintaining a healthy vehicle is clearly important
I never said this: Detoxification is useless, or it only affects the body.
I did say this (second post):
Once again, no argument that a physical detox may indeed help many to think more clearly
I never said this: We have zero control over our physical existence, or what little we do have isn’t worth exercising.
I did say this (second post):
It doesn't matter what we do physically, if the mind isn't right there, leading the way. [Expansion 2/14/2011: In other words, pay attention, be conscious, be aware, "remember yourself" during any activity]
I never said this: All concern or discussion about physical health or security is hopelessly lost in the realm of “A” influences.
I did say this [italics added as above]:
can we take a moment to realize how deeply these discussions can get lost in the realm of worldly ("A") influences?
I never said this: My perspective is one of love and light and hallucinogens. If I don’t worry about my body, happy thoughts will take care of it for me. I’m a magician and thinking makes it so.
I did say this (first post):
For a period of about a year, I suffered intensely in my concern for the physical well-being of others. I encouraged family and friends to prepare for catastrophe. I prepared myself to provide assistance.
And this (second post):
Now, the reason I said, "Awareness comes first, period," is that, according to my understanding, consciousness is the root of everything and our only pathway beyond 3D. [Note 2/14/2011: Remember that earlier in this post I said that "physicality...is an important component of awareness."]
I hope all of this re-establishes some of the nuances in my posts.
Responses to Repsonses
Truth Seeker
[quote author=truth seeker"]
Well, let's say that someone doesn't have the ability to think clearly because of brain inflammation due to diet. While they may be aware that something is off, being in that state would hamper their ability to deal with their programs that would lead to more objective thinking - the ability to see and accept truth in all forms even though they may have the willingness to do so.
So while some may be able to understand how their diet affects their health in some ways prior to going on the diet, others may need to trust first that they have issues that would be improved by diet and then come to the understanding later as they notice changes that support it. Either way it goes, there is a level of trust that I think needs to take place in order for that leap of faith to occur. Hope that makes sense.[/quote]
It does make sense. What you call "trust," I would call "awareness." To my thinking, awareness asks questions like, "What don't I know?" and "How can I know more?" So saying to oneself, "Hey, maybe if I change my diet, I'll be able to think more clearly," and then consciously applying oneself to a new diet is an application of awareness. In other words, I don't expect people to be fully aware or perfectly conscious or "Man number 5, 6, or 7" before they can do anything "with awareness" or "consciously." It would be absurd to expect people to have perfect knowledge before they seek knowledge.
truth seeker said:
When I first started on this diet, I took said leap of faith because I had no noticeable symptoms that anything was off but I had seen changes in myself due to ee. I decided to try it. Shortly after, I began to realize that I felt better and was being affected in very subtle ways by what I was ingesting. That was proof enough for me and an interesting lesson as well. The diet helped me to realize that certain foods were affecting my ability to see and in turn help others in seeing. It also helped me to realize that by supporting my own body's awareness in its ability to be more conscious, I was better able to assist others in becoming more conscious as well.
Wonderful!
Nienna Eluch
Nienna Eluch said:
From what I have read in many books about inflammation and detoxification, when you detoxify your body, you are also detoxifying your mind and emotions. It cannot be any other way as far as I can tell from what I have read and from my own experience. The foods/chemicals we ingest not only inflame our body, but our mind and emotions as well. When you are full of inflammation, that includes the mind as well as the body, they become inflammed together. That is why detoxing helps to reduce inflammation not only in the body, but the mind and emotions as well.
I understand that you say that this is not what you defined in your original statement as detoxing. But the truth is that when you detox, you detox everything, whether this is what you intended as your reference to detoxing or not - this is what, in effect, actually happens. And this is why we recommend detoxing so highly here on this forum.
Yes, I understand that body, emotions, and mind are all interrelated. I made statements to that effect in both of my previous posts. I also recognize that detoxification can be enormously helpful and affect the entire being. I never took aim at detoxification in general. In my original post, I warned against "consistent worries about detoxification" and in my second post, I said that "worries" was the operative word. Maybe I should say it this way: "Don't freak out if you find out something is toxic; instead, bring awareness to the situation, and do what you need to do -- stop eating it, filter it, etc." Does that make sense? I didn't say all of this in my first post, because I didn't mean to start a conversation about detoxification. Instead I suggested that it might help people who are very nervous about physical security to relax a bit.
Nienna Eluch said:
Also, there are a LOT of people who are in pain on this forum. And they are taking some horrific, poisonous drugs to try to maintain their ability to function. This, too, is where detoxification comes in very strongly.
I am sorry to hear that they are in pain. Once again, I'm not attacking detoxification.
Nienna Eluch said:
You say that being consciously aware is the number one thing to attain. How can people do this who cannot think straight because of inflammation in the body and brain? By detoxing, we are enabling people to be able to then go from not being able to think straight, having neurological chemical imbalances, which blocks their thinking, to being able to think clearly enough to realize what they need to do to become consciously aware.
As I said to Truth Seeker: To my thinking, awareness asks questions like, "What don't I know?" and "How can I know more?" So saying to oneself, "Hey, maybe if I change my diet, I'll be able to think more clearly," and then consciously applying oneself to a new diet is an application of awareness. In other words, I don't expect people to be fully aware or perfectly conscious or "Man number 5, 6, or 7" before they can do anything "with awareness" or "consciously." It would be absurd to expect people to have perfect knowledge before they seek knowledge.
When I said, "Awareness comes first, period," in my first post, I meant that whatever we do, we should know that we're doing -- so that we do it "consciously" or "with awareness" or "remembering ourselves." For us in 3D, this awareness is not separate from physical processes. Ideally, it guides and benefits from them.
Nienna Eluch said:
When you have inflammation, you cannot think straight.
I hear you. I'm not suggesting people need to think straight before they can think straight. I'm saying they should think the best they can and let that guide their behavior. From what you describe, it sounds like for many here that means a good detox and continuing attention to their physical well-being. No argument from me.
Nienna Eluch said:
Many people think that they have raised their conscious awareness by doing hallucinogenics. Others think that by thinking nice 'love and light' thoughts raises their conscious awareness. The way I see it, and I could certainly be wrong, you have to be able to think clearly, see things in an objective light, to gain knowledge, to become aware. Detoxing the body, which then detoxes the mind, helps clarity of thought which makes it easier to become consciously aware.
This is just the way I see things at this time. As always, this may change as more things come to light.
I do agree that fear of what is to come can cause people into survivalist thinking. That, too, can be changed with a good detox. :D Because once you can think straight, you can then SEE things in a whole different light, if you are looking to change.
I am not either of those kinds of people, and I've never recommended hallucinogens or ignoring the nasty aspects of reality. I agree with "the way you see it," and have said several times that I also think detoxes can be helpful. Do you understand that I'm not arguing against detoxification?
Anart
anart said:
It seems like there is a lot of mental hoop jumping going on in order to rationalize away the idea that the state of our physical vehicle is crucial to functioning well in this reality. It's really a very simple premise here: we ARE in a physical vehicle, for a reason. If physicality were not important at this stage of our lesson plan, we would not be in a physical vehicle. This physical vehicle is our interface with 3D reality, a reality we are tasked with understanding fully before we can move on. If our physical vehicle limits our perception due to inflammation/toxicity (and the data that it does is monumental), then our awareness and growth potential is necessarily limited.
It is not an 'either/or' situation - it is not either the physical body or the spirit - this existence is a mix of spirit and physicality and if we ignore the requirements of optimum physicality we limit, by the parameters of this existence, spiritual advancement - because it works together. How could it be any other way?.
It's no more about focusing singularly on the physical than it is about focusing singularly on the spiritual - there is a balance here that most newage schools of thought push really hard against because it's much easier to hypnotize people when you 'convince them that they are magicians', as it were.
[All bolds added, except for "together"]
Anart, I never denied the importance of physicality. I said it was our window into spirituality. In fact, in both of my previous posts, I made many of the points you stress above. Did you see where I wrote (first post):
It's true that we live in a 3D world, and equally true that "physicality" generally mediates our experience of "spirituality".
And then (second post):
maintaining a healthy vehicle is clearly important
And also (second post again)
Looking at my previous post, you'll see that I note early on that physicality generally mediates spiritual experience, and so is an important component of awareness.
Do you see how I defined "awareness," as we experience it in 3D, as partly physical? When you say, "How could it be any other way?", I say that I never suggested otherwise. I put quotes around "physicality" and "spirituality" to show that I do not think they are truly separate. I did not stress these points as you and other responders have because I thought I was addressing an audience more fearful of Armageddon than floating in "love and light."
The bottom line is this:
I addressed my first post in this thread to people overly concerned with physical security, not to people dissociated from their physical existence. I tried to fit my suggestions to the audience I selected, not a different one. Even with my chosen emphasis, I tried to maintain a balance.
If tomorrow I have two conversations about "the work," first with a Baptist fundamentalist and then with an Atheist materialist, they will be very different conversations, right? I might emphasize certain Bible verses in the first conversation, and the "hard problem" of neuroscience in the second. Does that mean that I think the Bible is the literal truth, or that I rest my case on one mystery? Not at all!
Perhaps my intention to communicate certain ideas to certain people failed miserably. In retrospect, I could have expanded certain sections and left others out entirely. I'm trying to make myself more clear with this mammoth post that now assumes a much broader audience.
I have appreciated many of your posts since I've been here, but frankly, this one disappointed me. It denied any nuance in my two previous posts, and suggested that I'm here peddling typical New Age wishful thinking. Please read the "Practicality and Physicality" section above where I detail my background and angle of approach.
In the future, I would appreciate it if you would extend me the courtesy of treating my actual words and not caricatures of more nuanced arguments. You might even try something as simple as this: "Dorothy, I think you are over-emphasizing "awareness" and underestimating the importance of our physical vehicles." That would address the imbalance (perceived or actual) while still acknowledging some subtlety.
Ailén
Ailén said:
Following a healthy (detox) diet is part of our growth. It isn't just about saying "I realized I've been eating poorly", but rather, about making changes based on the DATA and researched collected, not to mention the realization about how the PTB lie to us concerning health. That is part of our lessons. In a real sense, working to destroy our illusions concerning nutrition, and developing the necessary will power to at least stick to the diet for a while to see what effect it has, IS part of our lessons. It is based on the same principle as all the others: Knowledge protects.
I didn't suggest it was "just about saying 'I realized I've been eating poorly.'" Here is what I said (italics added):
I think it's dangerous to think this way:
Dorothy Minder]Now said:
Consciousness is not just an abstract thing. If we ignore certain knowledge, reality may hit us much harder later.
Being aware of death is certainly a good thing, but that doesn't mean to say that one can't take steps to making the body allow us to do as much as we can, and be as much as we can, now. Especially when it's all connected!
Agreed!
Ailén said:
It may not all be that black and white when society is devastated. There is the possibility that only those who have done all their best to have strong bodies and non-inflamed brains, which also leads to emotional detox, may be the ones surviving and helping others survive and learn, recover from the shock, etc. That is but only one possible scenario. Just because the time may come when we can't choose what to eat doesn't mean that it's not important to pay attention to diet today. Our spiritual growth may well depend on it too.
Agreed. I offered two very different views of the future to illustrate a continuum, not to say "black or white, pick one."
Luke Wilson
luke wilson said:
Detoxyfying and having a 100% clean system to me seems like a myth.
Yes, exactly. Many people get hung up on having a "100% clean system" and the very idea of a toxin starts to freak them out. Those people should relax, pay attention, and do what they can. More practically given your questions, and as many here have already pointed out, our bodies and minds are connected and when we take care of our bodies, our minds benefit. From your questions, it appears you have some research to do. :) Enjoy!
luke wilson said:
Also, I think I have found abit of the root problem of why Dorothy Minder was having a hard time accepting the whole diet detoxyfying thing and exactly how important it is.
I see that it is important. Several people seem to have understood four words in my original post ("consistent worries about detoxification") differently than I intended them. With my second post, and now with this "doorstop," I'm trying to explain my full position to see where disagreement remains.
luke wilson said:
I dont mean to dispel with how important diet is, but, maybe we are being trapped by our own way of thinking. Like, women are dangerously practical, so I could hypothesis, that in this whole forum, women have done a better job at implementing the diet than men. Buuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuut, Don Juan says that this isnt exactly all there is. That being to practical isnt exactly all it is cracked up to be. So I can understand Dorothy Minders questions in a way, he just isnt that 'practical.' However, between 'imbecility' and 'practicality,' I suppose practicality wins hands down. Notice again that all the replies to him were essentially from women, who are naturally better equiped with a practical mind especially in matters they think is important and thus able to pick apart his 'abstract' arguments with deadly precision and bring it into the realm of pragmatism. Not placing judgements, just stating an observation.
Just to clarify, diet is important and having a clean clear well balanced system makes our job much easier as anart said, so I am not arguing against that.
Good points. I don't think it always breaks down into "practical women" and "imbecilic men," but then I doubt you do either. As for my abstract arguments, I hope I've put some meat on them by now.
Conclusion
I hope I've resolved some of the differences in emphasis and angle. I'm interested to hear any and all responses.
Everyone who read this whole post has my thanks. :D