Malaysian Airlines Flight 17 Crashes in Ukraine

Palinurus

The Living Force
Thanks for your input, Voyageur. :cool2: I couldn't agree more.

All recent articles from Dutch sources have been posted as examples of the cult of the plausible lie and as a demonstration of the increased propaganda effort around the 5-year commemoration mark, on Wednesday 17 July this week.

One small addition to your remark about "(which was expanded to the Dutch population in general by the sounds of it)".
As stated in the referred article:
These percentages are much higher than among Dutch citizens who did not lose any family in the disaster. Of these, 63 percent have no confidence that the perpetrators will be convicted and only 55 percent consider a trial without suspects present to be useful, according to a second public survey among the 21,000 members of the EenVandaag Opinion Panel.
The TV program EenVandaag has a standing panel of people who are considered to be representative of the Dutch population as a whole which they use for all kinds of opinion polls on subjects they are broadcasting about.
As for the MH17 case, there have been two separate opinion polls: one among 135 next of kin and another, identical one, among the 21,000 members of the standing panel. This is confirmed with this remark:
In the same survey, filled in by the EenVandaag opinion panel in which there are no relatives of the disaster, ...
Hope this clarifies the procedure for you. :-)
 

Palinurus

The Living Force
Source: Aftermath of MH17 hindering relatives' grieving process: psychologist

Aftermath of MH17 hindering relatives' grieving process: psychologist

By Janene Pieters on July 16, 2019 - 11:50

Relatives of MH17 victims who are actively involved in the legal and political aftermath of the disaster, are struggling more with the grieving process than those who pay less attention to it, clinical psychologist Jos de Keijser said in an interview with the Volkskrant [in Dutch; for translation see below].

Working with colleagues from the Universities of Groningen and Utrecht and [from] the Victim Support Fund, De Keijser studied the grieving processes of 173 people who lost loved ones when flight MH17 was shot down over eastern Ukraine on 17 July 2014. The researchers hope that this study will help people cope with the loss of a loved one in future disasters. The conclusions of the research will be presented during a meeting for MH17 relatives in Nieuwegein on Tuesday.

Of the 173 MH17 relatives who participated in the research, 20 percent mourn without additional complications. 80 percent still experienced complex grief almost a year after the disaster and have difficulty dealing with the loss. Of this group, for 15 percent this complex grief was accompanied by post traumatic stress disorder (PTSD), 27 percent also struggled with depression, and 36.4 percent struggled with multiple mental health issues.

De Keijser described complex grief as mourning that lasts longer than a year on average. "These relatives have an extreme longing for the deceased - so strong that you have to sleep under your child's comforter, go to the cemetery every day or smell the smell of your loved one every day. That you cannot escape", he said to the newspaper. "Other symptoms of complex grief are feelings of emptiness and avoidance. They avoid talking about a person or places, to protect themselves from the pain. And that protection is at the same time maintaining the grief."

The clinical psychologist emphasized that the relatives who mourn without complications are not better than those who are still struggling. Everyone mourns in their own way. "That is a matter of aptitude and character."

From questionnaires and conversations with relatives, De Keijser found that negative reports about the disaster in the media can influence the social functioning of the surviving relatives. The more negatively the media coverage is experienced, the more it affects relatives' lives. Psychologists came to similar conclusions after other attacks, such as the 9/11 attacks in New York.

The fact that the MH17 disaster has largely disappeared from the collective Dutch consciousness is another complicating factor for the relatives' mourning. "In the beginning, the relatives were embraced by everyone", De Keijser said. "But the collective compassion after such a traumatic loss ebbs away faster than the grief of the relatives. And with that, often also the understanding of neighbors, colleagues, employers and company doctors. That leads to disappointment, in addition to the grief."

A striking conclusion of the study is that people who lost four or five loved ones in the MH17 disaster, often process the grief more easily than those who lost one loved one. "Mourning does not pile up", De Keijser explained to the Volkskrant. "At a certain point you are full. In professional literature this is called bereavement overload; you are overloaded with sorrow, your working memory is full, you can take no more. Then it is not the case that you first have to process one and then the other deceased. It seems rather that you include the grief for the other at the same time."

De Keijser also noticed that people often do not seek psychological help after a traumatic loss, despite the fact that this has proven effective. "When you are sick, you go to the doctor, but when you are very sad, people think: I must learn to live with it. Or: treatment won't bring my loved one back. While it has been shown that it helps. Grief is inevitable, you need to process it. A psychologist cannot help you get rid of the pain. But can help you with the restrictive circumstances around it."

Source (Dutch only): www.volkskrant.nl/nieuws-achtergrond/psycholoog-onderzocht-de-rouw-van-mh17-nabestaanden-rouw-telt-niet-op-op-een-bepaald-moment-zit-je-vol~b3138941b/
(three illustrations omitted)

DeepL Translator said:
INTERVIEW WITH CLINICAL PSYCHOLOGIST JOS DE KEIJSER

Psychologist examined the mourning of MH17 survivors: 'Mourning does not pile up. At a certain moment you are full'.

Clinical psychologist Jos de Keijser examined the mourning process of MH17 survivors. 'Mourning often takes much longer in the event of an attack.'

Wil Thijssen 16 July 2019, 5:00

The survivors of the MH17 air disaster not only share a sudden, violent loss, but also ignorance about the last moment of their loved ones, inaccessibility of the place where it happened and the lack of an intact body to say goodbye to.

This complicates the grieving process, says clinical psychologist Jos de Keijser. "Of all those who lose a loved one due to, for example, cancer or a heart attack, 90 per cent will be back above a certain internationally agreed standard after one year. But in the case of survivors of an attack or murder, mourning often takes much longer."

Together with colleagues, De Keijser investigated the grieving process of these next of kin. In 2.5 years, they surveyed 173 of them four times. Of these, 66 people answered all four rounds of questions. The results will be announced on Tuesday at the memorial service in Nieuwegein, with the booklet 'Something in my life is broken'. The research shows that most of them, 80 percent, after a year struggled with complex mourning (PCRS), post-traumatic stress syndrome (PTSD), a depression, or several disorders at the same time. Two-thirds of this group lost more than one loved one as a result of the disaster.

What makes grief different after a murder or attack?

"The MH17 disaster is a man-made disaster - caused by humans. You can draw a line from natural disasters to man-made disasters and attacks. With a natural disaster, you don't look for a culprit. In the case of man-made disasters, such as a shipwreck or airplane disaster, you do this in part: sometimes it is an accident, sometimes bad luck, or someone's fault. But in an attack, someone has deliberately killed your loved one. That is more difficult to deal with. This causes anger and feelings of revenge. This frustration causes additional stress and complicates the normal process of coping with it."

MH17 lies between man-made death and an attack, says De Keijser. "It was an attack, but not deliberately directed against these passengers. This was also evident from 9/11 in New York: that attack was not directed against the officials in the WTC towers, but against the entire West. With Breivik on the Norwegian island of Utoya there was a very specific attack. He hated progressive, left-wing people and knew exactly how many social-democratic children were there at that time. This is reflected in the mourning of their parents who are even angrier than the relatives of MH17 on the four suspects who have now been charged."

Actually, MH17 was not a nasty, painful death, says De Keijser: you go on holiday in a cheerful mood and all of a sudden - pop - you're gone. No suffering, no misery, no hospitalizations. But those who stay behind experience this as very traumatic. They can get all kinds of psychological complaints.

One year after the disaster, the psychologist distinguished three groups. First of all, there were the 'resilient' people. They have a lot of grief, worry much and sleep badly, but after a year they function quite well again. A second group had complex mourning. After a year, they still haven't got their lives together but 'they'll get there'. In addition to complex mourning, the third group suffers from problems such as PTSD or depression. These next of kin often need professional help, says De Keijser, otherwise nothing will change.

What characterizes complex grief?

"That is mourning that lasts longer than an average of one year. These next of kin have an extreme longing for the deceased - so strong, for example, that you have to sleep under your child's duvet, go to the cemetery every day or smell the scent of your loved one every day. That you can't get loose of it."

"Other symptoms of complex mourning are feelings of emptiness and avoidance. They avoid talking about a person or go to certain places, to protect themselves from the pain. And that protection is at the same time maintaining the grief."

And how does PTSD characterize with next of kin?

"If something bad happens, you make a mental picture of it. The next of kin I spoke to formed images of what exactly happened, they dream about children flying through the air, or they always see images of wreckage or body parts."

One of the findings of his research is diametrically opposed to what has been assumed so far: professional literature reports that mourning 'stacks' when a person loses more than one person at the same time, but that does not emerge from this research at all, says De Keijser. "There are survivors who have lost four or five loved ones, and they have it easier to pass through their mourning process than some others who have lost one loved one. You'd expect them to have complex mourning more often, but we don't see that."

How can that be explained?

"Mourning does not add up. At some point you are full. In professional literature this is called bereavement overload; you are overloaded with grief, your working memory is full, you can't take in any more of it. In such situations it's not the case that you have to process one death first and then the other. Rather, it seems as if, with the one you are also taking the grief for the other into account simultaneously.

So why do some get complex mourning and others don't?


"The resilient, self-sufficient next of kin do not avoid, they take on all confrontations. They have looked at body parts and identified their loved one. They go to see the reconstruction of the plane in Gilze-Rijen. They talk about the deceased, seek support and take up their lives again. This is not because they are better than the others, but a matter of disposition and character."

The next of kin who took part in the research were offered psychological treatment. Thirty-five people took advantage of this. They received eight sessions of cognitive therapy, 'exposure' and EMDR.

With cognitive therapy, we 'search' for negative thoughts, says De Keijser."Sometimes the next of kin suffer from a feeling of guilt: I was a bad partner, or: I have done too little together with my daughter. I will never say that what someone thinks is wrong, but I try to understand why someone thinks something. If the reaction is: it goes on its own, then these are automated thoughts. Those you can turn into conscious thoughts that you control yourself. And when someone says: I'll never be happy again, you can challenge that thought. It says something about the future, but you don't know the future. So you also don't know if you'll ever be happy again."

'Exposure' includes confrontation with painful things that are avoided. "A form of avoidance is called de-realization; something becomes unreal, it's kind of a film; you think: my lover is just in Malaysia and will come back later. You don't want to go to that pain. We have asked these people to write about things they find difficult, to visit places they would rather not go to, or to identify their child's trousers, for example. By confronting them with reality - yes, it was that plane and yes, everyone is dead - you stimulate the grief to get going, so that they can come to terms with it."

EMDR was then used to get rid of PTSD images. "As you think about the event, such as the falling down of your lover's body there in Ukraine, you are asked to recall that film image and at the same time look at the therapist's finger or listen to a device. Then that film image is re-stored in your working memory, but less well because you are distracted. If it is stored less well, your memory processes the information better at night and those images fade away."

The research also shows - 'very remarkable' - that PTSD does not block mourning, but that complex mourning can actually be the cause of PTSD. "So far, the assumption has been that you treat PTSD first, so that someone can mourn normally. However, we have indications that you have to treat that grief first, otherwise the PTSD images will not go away."

The participants benefited greatly from the treatment, says De Keijser. After the last survey it turned out that the symptoms had decreased or disappeared. But next of kin who also suffer from depression appear to be much less interested in such a treatment. "In addition, we are also looking for a middle-way-treatment: longer grief processing coupled with the activation of the person by, for example, offering daytime activities. An important conclusion, therefore, is that in the case of traumatic mourning we need to look more closely at what is good for whom. Although they have all experienced the same loss, the treatment is about differentiation, about customization."

Little research has been done into complex losses. "We know very little about how we can help those left behind after suicide, murder, loss or an attack. That's a pity, because good guidance pays off," emphasizes the psychologist. "You get people back to work more quickly, the quality of life improves again."

A number of the examined next of kin are still not working fully or not at all. Mourning is not in itself a reason to discard work, says De Keijser, but it can be taken into account to a greater extent. "One of the next of kin I spoke to worked in shifts in a factory. He lost his child in the MH17 disaster. When he went back to work, he was only allowed to do day shifts because he slept so badly. But after six months, his employer said: it's time for you to start working night shifts again. He couldn't do that at all yet."

Mourning receives too little recognition in the system of being ill, according to the psychologist. "It may not be a disease but it is very bad, a reason to adjust the job. I'm not for sitting at home; working gives structure. But adjustments are sometimes necessary. For instance, you have to think of mourning leave in collective agreements. I think that far too little attention is paid to this."

Together with colleagues Paul Boelen and Lonneke Lenferink, Jos de Keijser wrote the workbook Mourning after plane crash MH17 for the next of kin in 2016, and at the end of last year, together with Geert Smid, they published the Handbook on Traumatic Mourning for social workers. They were invited to various meetings of next of kin and were asked whether they would like to provide them with psychological support.

That was not always easy, says De Keijser. "We were not always received in a friendly manner. You soon have the image that you are pedantic, that you just come to explain the state of their emotions. I had trouble with that once in a while. But you do it, because it's your job and you think it's important to do it."

He was also accused: you only come because you want to do research so badly. "I can understand that. These people have experienced something terrible. A lot is coming at them - grief, unsolicited media attention, a lot of arrangements - and then we also arrive with our painful questionnaires. However, with the conclusions we hope to be able to help the survivors of such a disaster better in the future."

Does this explain the low response rate to your investigation?


"In part. Many of the survivors think after such an event: it's a kind of fate, this has happened to me. If you are ill, you go to the doctor, but if you have a lot of grief, people think: I have to learn to live with that. Or: with a treatment I won't get my loved one back anyway. Though it has been shown that it helps. Sorrow is unavoidable, that's what you need to be able to overcome the grief. A psychologist can't help you get rid of that pain. But they can help you overcome the hampering circumstances surrounding it."



ADDITIONAL INFO

(Note: all links go to articles in Dutch)

"I WANT TO EXPLAIN WHO WE'VE LOST; THEIR NAMES MUST BE MENTIONED."

On 9 March 2020, the MH17 process will start: a case with 298 victims from 10 countries, presumably conducted without suspects and without a defense. A case that will be a focus for all the eyes of the world. What does that mean for the next of kin? "I don't have to look these suspects in the eye."

Family detectives are usually the link between an investigation team and the victim's family in murder and vice cases. But the MH17 disaster is so unique: 106 family detectives throughout the Netherlands went to work for the next of kin in one fell swoop. What are their experiences? And how are their efforts appreciated?

The Belgian forensic dentist Eddy De Valck is one of the people who managed to make names out of numbers again: he helped to identify the 298 victims of the MH17 disaster in the Corporal Van Oudheusden barracks in Hilversum. "This is the very last thing we can do for them."

The repatriation of the victims of the MH17 disaster in Ukraine was widely admired. Who were the people responsible and how did they work? Reconstruction of almost a year of risky, precise and empathic human work.

The investigation into the circumstances of the MH17 disaster was anything but regular police work. De Volkskrant spoke to three main players. They give a special insight.

The former Volkskrant-correspondent Olaf Koens was at the crash site one day after the crash of MH17. He spent the night there with the rescue workers, between wreckage and bodies. "All you have to do is think about your work," says the men from the rescue service. "Not about the dead. They are just lying here. Here, have another drink."

Translated with www.DeepL.com/Translator
https://www.volkskrant.nl/nieuws-achtergrond/het-mh17-proces-begint-in-maart-2020-wat-betekent-dat-voor-de-nabestaanden~b8cc8e72/
https://www.volkskrant.nl/nieuws-achtergrond/het-mh17-proces-begint-in-maart-2020-wat-betekent-dat-voor-de-nabestaanden~b8cc8e72/
 

Palinurus

The Living Force
Source: MH17: Driver who transported missile that downed Malaysia Airlines flight jailed


MH17: Driver who transported missile that downed Malaysia Airlines flight jailed


Ukrainian security services say over 150 people that were involved in the transportation of the missile have been identified.

By David Chipakupaku, news reporter Wednesday 17 July 2019 17:49, UK


The driver of a truck that transported the missile which shot down Malaysia Airlines flight MH17 has been in jail since 2017, Ukrainian security services have confirmed

MH17 was flying from the Malaysian capital of Kuala Lumpur to Amsterdam in the Netherlands on 17 July 2014, when it was shot down in eastern Ukraine. All 298 people on-board were killed.

An official from Ukraine's State Security Service (SBU) Vitaly Mayakov told reporters at a press conference that the service had tracked down a man from Donestk, who was approached by separatists and asked to tow the missile.

Mr Mayakov, who is part of the SBU's Chief Investigative Department, said the man had been in prison since 2017 and is now serving a sentence.

He did not, however, name the driver or explain why the information had not been released earlier.

"We have determined the individual from among the fighters who brought it on the vehicle to Donetsk," Mr Mayakov told a news conference.

"We detained him, he is now serving a sentence here, in Ukraine."

The official said more than 150 people that were involved in the transportation of the missile to and from Ukraine have been identified.

MH17 was shot during a war between Russian-backed rebels and Ukrainian forces, a fighting which killed 13,000 people.

The latest development comes as commemorations took place in Malaysia and the Netherlands to remember the 298 people who died on-board the flight five years ago today.

In the Netherlands, more than a thousand people attended a memorial service near Schipol Airport, where trees were planted for each victim.

Dutch Prime Minister Mark Rutte called the shooting down of MH17 "a shameful deed that robbed 298 innocent people of their lives".

Ten British nationals were among the dead.

Source (Dutch only): www.nrc.nl/nieuws/2019/07/16/nieuwe-getuigen-melden-zich-in-mh17-onderzoek-a3967334

DeepL Translator said:
New witnesses come forward in MH17 investigation

Investigation Chief Prosecutor Fred Westerbeke continues in a meeting with next of kin saying he is "unbelievably angry" with Malaysia's recent criticism.

Arjen Schreuder 16 July 2019 at 21:22


Witnesses have again come forward in the investigation into the perpetrators of the downing of flight MH17. That is what Wilbert Paulissen, head of the international JIT investigation team, said on Tuesday at a meeting of next of kin in Nieuwegein. Wednesday five years ago, the disaster killed 298 passengers of a Boeing of Malaysia Airlines. "New steps are being taken in the investigation. It looks promising," said Paulissen.

Four weeks ago, the research team, the so-called Joint Investigation Team (JIT), announced that it would prosecute three Russians and one Ukrainian. The lawsuit will start next March at Schiphol Airport. Police and judicial authorities are looking for more suspects, including the crew of the BUK missile and persons who gave the order, people from the chain of command.

Chief Public Prosecutor Fred Westerbeke, coordinator of the JIT, said he still could not show all the evidence for the Russian involvement. "We only do that in court." That is why he cannot respond to statements by Russian President Putin to the effect that there is no evidence.

Yet Westerbeke has been "unbelievably angry" with criticism of the investigation by Malaysia's Prime Minister Mahathir Mohamad, which is one of the countries working on the investigation in the JIT. "That touches me." Westerbeke is also "irritated" by the fact that one of the four suspects, the Russian Igor Girkin, walks around freely in Moscow. "That feels bad. That makes me sick. Of course, you'd rather have a man like that on remand."

'Most important moment'

The upcoming court case is probably "the most important moment" for next of kin who want to obtain justice, said Arno Akkermans, professor of private law at the VU in Amsterdam, at the next of kin meeting. According to the professor, this lawsuit in which the next of kin will be given the right to speak and in which it will hopefully become clear what exactly happened, meets the needs of the next of kin more than other legal proceedings.

An example is the complaint against Russia before the European Court of Human Rights which he considers not very promising, or proceedings for damages. Akkermans denounces the "earning model of a Lottery" from lawyers who promise relatives millions. "That's fairy-tale justice." By the way, some Dutch lawyers who assist groups of survivors have a very different view on this.

'Complex' mourning

Jos de Keijser, professor of psychology in Groningen who has carried out several investigations into the psychological condition of the surviving relatives, explained that a considerable number of the approximately one thousand surviving relatives of the MH17 victims go through a "complex" mourning . The mourning is complex because of the "unexpectedness of the disaster, its 'arbitrariness', the worrying about the suffering of loved ones and also by the question of whether the disaster could have been prevented."

According to other research the next of kin also experienced a great deal of stress, including through the attitude of employers, company doctors and the Employee Insurance Agency (UWV); and also through the "enormous attention" of the media, the government and acquaintances. On the one hand, this has "undoubtedly contributed to the necessary acknowledgement of next of kin", according to Tilburg-based researcher Peter van der Velden, but on the other hand there is apparently also a "critical limit" at which this attention turns into experienced stress. "The question is whether we shouldn't take a step back in the event of a future disaster."

Translated with www.DeepL.com/Translator
 

Niall

SuperModerator
Moderator
FOTCM Member
On this, the fifth anniversary of MH17, it still amazes me that, for the purpose of this black-op against Russia, the Mossad picked an airline operator that had lost a plane (MH370) at the maximum height of global tensions over Crimea, on 8th March 2014, just 4 months earlier. (Russian troops and locals began taking physical control of the Crimean republic that day, prompting mass freak-outs in Western capitals: As hostilities flare in Crimea, U.S. steps up pressure on Russia)

Let's remind ourselves what the Cs said about MH370:

Q: (L) Alright, I think that's enough on that topic. I think the topic on everybody's mind is The Plane [Malaysian Airlines Flight 370]. The plane, the plane! {Fantasy Island.}(Pierre) Where is it?

A: In well of space/time lock.

Q: (L) Well, the Chinese are certain that they have located some wreckage.

A: Any "wreckage" located under the circumstances must be seen as highly questionable.

Q: (Pierre) Was it deliberate, or was it an accident?

A: Happens when bleedthrough causes confusion.

Q: (L) Confusion of what?

A: Realms and all within.

Q: (Perceval) Seems like the confusion was evident in the change in direction of the plane, and then it disappeared into a well of time and space. (Data) Are the passengers okay on the plane?

A: Depends on how you define "okay".

Q: (Perceval) Is it a similar situation to Flight 19?

A: Yes.

Q: (Perceval) So, we have that explanation in the transcripts, what's going on with the passengers... Do any of the PTB on the planet know?

A: Of course! Why do you think there was such a comedown vis-a-vis Crimea and Russia?

Q: (L) You mean they had plans to be more aggressive and “in-their-faces”, and they... (Perceval) Why would the disappearance of the plane make them scared or make them back down? Was it "comedown", was that what was said? Like a retreat. So, basically the PTB backed down on Crimea and Russia and that whole situation because the plane disappeared and they were worried about...? (Pierre) So, if you lie too much, if you create too much chaos, like unjustified war, you might increase such a bleedthrough?

A: They have "advisors" and "interpretors" of such things.

Q: (Pierre) So the advisors said if they go on with the attack, and with lying and manipulating... (L) I don't think they would say that. (Perceval) They wouldn't spell it out. (L) I don't think that they would talk to them in those terms. (Pierre) What would they say? (L) Probably say something like, I dunno... Maybe they have some advisors and interpreters who say, "We did that, and if you don't back down, we're gonna do more!" Ya know, like threatening rather than explaining to them how to be good boys.

A: More or less.

Q: (L) I mean, we would all like to think that there would be some high and mighty power in the world that would tell the psychopaths, "Oh, if you keep creating chaos, you're gonna screw things up! You're a bad boy!" But that's not likely to happen because it would just be, ya know... (Perceval) You get into the idea of different levels of power here. People are doing the whole overt Crimea thing. And they have advisors and maybe they suspect that there's a higher power like the ones that blew up the Columbia space shuttle for Bush and stuff. They ascribe this plane incident to "them", and interpret it in some way like, "Let's back off" kind of thing. Like the way they alluded to this idea that there is a higher power that has vast technology and can influence the American government and its policies for example by sending a warning... So maybe the ones who take note of these things looked at this plane and said, "Maybe this is some kind of message to us."

A: There is likely to be a bit of interdimensional blackmail going on. How likely do you think it is for the "reality creating" US PTB to back down from their natural state of being the world's biggest bully?

Q: (Pierre) Why did those higher entities want the PTB to back down concerning Crimea and Russia?

A: They understand what the consequences are.

Q: (Perceval) So their whole thing is all about control... nuclear or global war, and that's the end of it. They've always wanted to control things and squeeze the people even tighter. (L) Well, the only thing that ever scares or stops a psychopath is a bigger psychopath. Um, I just have the feeling that somehow MOSSAD is involved in all of this business, like maybe even this plane thing. It's just too, um...

A: Maybe they live up to their motto?

Q: (L) "By way of deception, thou shalt do war." So that would suggest that, at some level, MOSSAD is involved with these advisors or interpreters, or somehow... (Perceval) They've said in the past that MOSSAD is near the top of the hierarchy. (L) So, at the top of MOSSAD, there's the interface with the hyperdimensional STS beings, more or less.

A: Yes.
So the Mossad did NOT do MH370, but they apparently claimed or insinuated that they did in order to 'remind' the Pentagon and the Kremlin what they are capable of. Then, in order to 'ground' or 'clarify' that 'threat' (which was actually a bluff to cover the fact that they had no control over what was, according to the Cs, actually a 4D bleedthrough event), they felt they had to 'dispel any doubts and show everyone that we mean business', which is why they DID do MH17, several months later, and in such a way that they made it look like Russia did it.

Talk about desperately trying to prove that you're 'the one true god'.

I wonder about the timing of the bleedthrough though - and its particularly pronounced effect in making a large plane full of passengers 'disappear'. Was it just coincidence that it happened at peak tension over Crimea? Did Putin, by taking the actions that he did, 'cause' it?! Giving the empire such a bloody nose was certainly a momentous historical event...

In any event, MH17 has officially gone down as 'Russia did it', thanks to an investigation so crooked, parts of the plane are still lying around in eastern Ukraine. In a sense then, it too wound up in a "well of space/time lock," the no-man's land that is southeastern Ukraine. Here's a short documentary, published yesterday, which exposes some of the gaping holes in the official story:

 
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angelburst29

The Living Force
FOTCM Member
The Russian Foreign Ministry considers arguments behind the investigators' accusations unsubstantiated.

Russia blasts Dutch officials for exploiting anguish of MH17 victims’ families
The crash site of Malaysia Airlines' Boeing-777 passenger aircraft, November 11, 2014 Mikhail Pochuyev/TASS

The crash site of Malaysia Airlines' Boeing-777 passenger aircraft, November 11, 2014 © Mikhail Pochuyev/TASS

MOSCOW, July 17, 2019 - Officials in the Netherlands are taking advantage of the emotions and grief of relatives who lost their loved ones in the MH17 crash over Ukraine, the Russian Foreign Ministry said in a statement dedicated to the fifth anniversary of the tragedy on Wednesday.

"Russia knows at first hand how hard it is to cope with such a great loss. Our citizens have fallen victim to aviation accidents more than once. We remember the 2001 tragedy over the Black Sea when a plane operated by Siberia Airlines was shot down by a surface-to-air-missile fired by the Ukrainian military," the statement reads.

"Regrettably, the Dutch authorities are increasingly playing with the emotions and grief of relatives of the MH17 victims. While appealing to the principles of justice and penalty for the perpetrators, they use their [formed by the relatives of those killed — TASS] associations as kind of a battering ram to push through assertions about Russia’s complicity and pin responsibility for compensation payments on our country," the Russian Foreign Ministry stressed.

Moscow is certain that only "a truly depoliticized and professional approach to the investigation will make it possible to eventually establish the cause of the accident and find out the truth."

"We are calling on the Joint Investigation Team to focus on its primary objective, namely, the impartial analysis of all available data to determine the true causes of the accident and find the real perpetrators of the tragedy," the ministry stated.

At the same time, there were no accusations against Ukraine "over its failure to close its airspace over the armed conflict zone, although this has generated lawsuits against Ukraine in the European Court of Human Rights," it stressed.

"However, despite the biased attitude, Russia remains willing to cooperate. We are confident that the pathway to truth lies only through dialogue and cooperation," the Foreign Ministry concluded.

Five years on, flight MH17 families call for justice
A family member reacts during a commemoration ceremony in memory of the victims of the Malaysia Airlines flight MH17 plane crash on the fifth anniversary of the accident, at the Australian High Commission in Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia, July 17, 2019. REUTERS/Lim Huey Teng

Family members of those aboard the downed Malaysia Airlines flight MH17 called on Wednesday for those responsible to be brought to justice, as they marked the fifth anniversary of the tragedy.
 

c.a.

The Living Force
FOTCM Member
12-15 minute Read
Ukraine’s State Security Service (SBU) has detained the driver of a towing truck that transported Buk missile involved in the incident with Boeing 777 of Malaysian Airlines (flight MH17) over eastern Ukraine in July 2014, Deputy Head of SBU’s Chief Investigation Department Vitaliy Mayakov claimed on July 17, according to UNN news agency.

The SBU official claimed that the missile launcher was belonging to Russia-backed rebels and was moved across the region of Donetsk.

According to Ukrainian sources, the SBU statement may have been linked to the recent incident in the Donetsk People’s Republic where Ukrainian special services kidnapped Vladimir Tsemakh, the former chief of the Air Defense of the Slavic Brigade, from the village of Snejnoe.

If Tsemakh is the ‘truck driver’ detained by the SBU, the entire story is another blatant fake used by the Kiev regime to hide own involvement in the tragedy.

The mainstream media narrative designed to blame Russia and local resistance forces from eastern Ukraine for the MH17 tragedy is openly crumbling. Malaysia, including its Prime Minister Mahathir Mohamad, has repeatedly questioned this ‘Russia is guilty’ narrative. According to the Malaysian side, the ongoing ‘investigation’ is politically motivated and lacks any evidence.

The position of the main victim of the MH17 incident almost fully corresponds with those one of Russia. Nonetheless, ‘independent investigators’ continue to push the narrative that plays into the hands of the Washington establishment and its proxies in the Ukrainian government.

On July 17, the Russian Foreign Ministry released an official statement on the MH17 tragedy (source):
Five years ago, on July 17, 2014, Malaysia Airlines ‘Boeing’, a civilian aircraft operating flight МН17 from Amsterdam to Kuala-Lumpur, crashed in eastern Ukraine. All 298 people on board died.

Unfortunately, this tragedy became a tool in a dirty political game. Within only hours, if not minutes, after the crash, as if prompted by someone, media and then Western political leaders launched a salvo of accusations against Russia for the killing of innocent people. Two investigations were opened into the crash: a technical investigation to identify the causes of the Boeing’s crash, and a criminal inquiry to identify the individuals responsible for what had happened. In both cases, the provisional assumptions were made for the sole purpose of substantiating accusations of Russia’s involvement in the crash. The interpretation of all the facts obtained during these investigations was biased and designed to incriminate Russia, while facts that did not fit the original assumptions were quietly swept under the carpet or dismissed under far-fetched pretexts. Russia was also accused of refusing to fully cooperate with the investigation and obstructing it.

We all know that this is not true.
In keeping with UN Security Council Resolution 2166, Russia has always sought to facilitate efforts to find out the truth and to hold the actual perpetrators accountable rather than those who were designated in advance as the initiators of what had happened. We remain committed to doing so in the future.

While Russia was not permitted to take part in the investigation, from the very first day it worked with the Netherlands, the Dutch Safety Board and the Joint Investigation Team (JIT), sharing all the information it had on the MH17 crash. We submitted the results of a full-scale experiment carried out by the Almaz-Antei Corporation, the original radio location data refuting the possibility of launching a missile from a specific area designated by the technical investigation into the reasons of the crash, and now shared by the JIT. At the request of the investigators, Russia declassified for the first time ever documents on the Buk surface-to-air missile complex, proved that the missile that downed the aircraft, according to the JIT, belonged to Ukraine, and many other things. Unfortunately, all these unique data are insistently ignored and not taken into consideration by the investigation or silenced during JIT’s news events that increasingly resemble political propaganda shows.

At the same time, evidence is based on sources that are quite questionable: social media, poor quality photo images and video footage, data from Ukrainian special services with nothing to back them, and investigations by would-be independent bloggers. It is no surprise that guided by an approach of this kind it took some time before the JIT allowed Malaysia to join the investigation. The latest statements made by this country’s officials and experts show that Malaysia is not inclined to make any hasty accusations. The prohibition to publish any data without the approval from all the participants in the group, including Ukraine, also raises eyebrows.

This can easily explain the absence of any alternative versions of the crash, as well as the fact that five years on after the crash tangible progress has yet to be achieved, despite the optimism displayed by the JIT at a recent news conference.


At the same time, there were no accusations against Ukraine for failing to close its airspace above an area affected by an armed conflict, despite the fact that lawsuits to this effect against Ukraine have already been referred to the ECHR.
Nevertheless and despite this biased attitude toward Russia, we remain open to cooperation. Russia strongly believes that the path to the truth lies through dialogue and cooperation.

We note that had the investigation been guided by the same approach and listened to our critique while fully taking into account our proposals, the quality of both the technical and criminal investigations could have been much higher.

Russia has first-hand experience in dealing with horrible tragedies of this kind, and knows all too well how to cope with immense loss. Russian nationals suffered in air crashes on multiple occasions. We remember very well the tragedy above the Black Sea in 2001, when a Sibir plane was downed by a surface-to-air missile launched by the Ukrainian military.

As deplorable as it is, in doing so the Dutch authorities are playing on the feelings as well as the sorrow of the relatives of MH17 victims. While calling for justice and for holding the perpetrators accountable, they use associations and unions formed by these people to spread the message of Russia’s involvement within the international public opinion and place the responsibility for paying the corresponding compensation on Russia.

We strongly believe that only by conducting the investigation in a truly politics-free and professional manner can we identify what caused the crash and obtain the truth once and for all.

Russia calls on the Joint Investigation Team (JIT) to focus on its main task which is to impartially analyse all the available data in order to identify the true causes of what happened there and find those who are behind this tragic event. However, considering how the investigation was and is conducted, we cannot regard it as impartial or unbiased. The quality of the so-called evidence that was demonstrated at JIT’s news conferences tends to prove the contrary, i.e. the determination to adjust facts that are actually far-fetched speculation and fakes in order to fit them into the original assumptions accusing Russia.




Flashback: Redazione on 17 novembre 2014 - 09:52 in Rassegna Esteri
Local Editor
Israel, not Russia, was behind the downing of the Malaysia Airlines Flight MH17 over eastern Ukraine in July, an American political commentator says.

In a phone interview with Press TV on Sunday, Professor James Henry Fetzer said, “While the United States is claiming that the newly released photographs by Russia — claiming that the Ukrainian military jets targeted the Malaysia Airlines Flight MH17 — are preposterous, [but] that does not mean they are not authentic, or that the plane having been shot down by Ukrainian jets is not true.”

On Friday, Russian state media released satellite images purportedly showing a Mikoyan MiG-29 fighter jet firing a missile at the MH17.

On July 17, the Boeing 777-200 passenger plane crashed in Ukraine’s conflict zone, killing all 298 people aboard. According to US intelligence and military officials, the plane was hit by a Russian SA-series missile launched from eastern Ukraine.

“Indeed, in the past I have seen the pieces of fuselage of MH17 showing bullet holes, both going in and going out of the same piece of fuselage, which implies that the plane was actually being shot down by jets from two different locations,” Fetzer said.

“Not only there’s nothing preposterous about this, but it’s the only account that makes any sense of what was taking place. Neither of the Russians nor supporters of Russia in the eastern Ukraine appeared to have had anything to do with it,” he added.

He went on to say that “this appears to have been part and parcel of a propaganda campaign to create a diversion to Israel’s invasion of Gaza, where indeed Vladimir Putin’s own aircraft passed through that area about 30 minutes previously.”

At least 2,139 Palestinians, mostly civilians, including women, children and the elderly, were killed in 50 days of the Israeli onslaught on Gaza in July and August.

“The fact that first responders on the scene described bodies in an advanced state of decomposition suggests that they were not fresh, and that the passengers aboard the plane, who were discovered there, had probably died some time previously, where a number of us have been led to speculate that the flight Malaysian airliner 17 was actually the same plane as the Malaysian airliner 370, which disappeared in southeast Asia months before,” Fetzer noted.

“There was a report from Christopher Berlind that an identical aircraft was observed in a hanger in Israel, which would not surprise me,” he revealed.

“The bottom line here being that Israel, in particular, will go to any length to try to mislead and deceive the public, and in this instance had a keen motive to distract the attention of the world from its vicious onslaught in Gaza,” he stated.

The Malaysia Airlines Boeing 777-200ER, carrying 227 passengers and 12 crew members, vanished from radar screens early on March 8, less than an hour after taking off from Kuala Lumpur on a scheduled flight to Beijing.

After a vast search in 4.64 million square kilometers (1.79 million square miles) of the southern Indian Ocean, the hunt was scaled backed as nothing was spotted.

Source: Press Tv
 

thorbiorn

The Living Force
FOTCM Member
While travelling yesterday on July 17th, I picked up a copy of Dutch paper, De Telegraaf which on page two has an opinion piece from the editor saying, not in Dutch, but in English: "Made in Moscow" Page two and three has an article of a now old man who lost his brother "Intangible loss remains a bitter pill", while another, on page 3 has the title: "The time for diplomacy is over" and later bolded in red: "Girkin must be caught and interrogated".
See also the search results for Artikelen over mh17 | Telegraaf.nl

Another widely distributed Dutch paper available at the airport was De Volkskrant. On the front page, there was an introduction to a feature article on pages eight and nine with the coordinators of the Dutch MH17 task force. Parts of the article is online.
At the end it mentions the people who coordinated the MH17 task force:
Kelly Mössenlechner
For MH17: the deputy director of the security policy, Coordinator of task force: may 2015 to August 2016, and now the ambassador to Malaysia In managing director of Asia and Oceania, The Hague

Michael Pistecky
For MH17: senior policy advisor for Ukraine, Coordinator of task force: in August 2016 to september 2018 and now head of the economic policy and entrepreneurship, the embassy in Paris

Robert Dresen

For MH17: cluster co-ordinator for Eastern Europe and Central Asia Coordinator, task force on: August, 2018 to the present, and
coming soon: a strategic adviser to the secretary-general of Nato in Brussels
That Robert Dresen is soon to be a strategic adviser to the secretary-general of Nato, helping him to find out what he is to say, is telling. The MH17 investigation has become a Nato project without it the sanctions against Russia would be more difficult to hold in place.

The front page also had an picture and three lines that lead to page seven, where there was an article with to sisters who lost family in the MH17 event: "Mirjam and Sandra think it's time for a positive story about MH17"

Online one finds an article published on July 16th, about a psychologist who had studied the grief of those who were related to the MH17, because they lost family or friends.

Published a month ago and linked to is an article where the translation reads:
"The denial of Russia's gross. Putin knows all things"
The Joint Investigation Team for the MH17 disaster, examining, holding today a press conference. The four defendants who have been released, ‘don't have the button, but have worked closely together to create a LEAN-rocket launch installation to get into position in order to have a plane to shoot it down.’
Parts of the Dutch press uses its influence to cement the narrative that Russia is to blame for MH17.
 

Palinurus

The Living Force
Thanks Niall, angelburst29, c.a. and thorbiorn for your welcome additions. :cool2:

Source: Ukraine says organiser of MH17 missile truck is arrested and jailed - DutchNews.nl - Live
Ukraine says organizer of MH17 missile truck is arrested and jailed

July 18, 2019


Relatives of people killed in the MH17 disaster gathered for a special commemoration ceremony on Wednesay.
Photo: Frank van Beek/Pool Photo via AP



Ukrainian security service officials say the man who organized the truck for the Russian BUK which shot down fight MH17 five years ago has been arrested and jailed.

Vitaliy Mayakov, an official with the SBU secret service, told a news conference on Wednesday that the man had been identified and arrested on the basis of video and phone evidence.

‘Thanks to this video and this phone, we established the person who owns the trailer, identified the person from among militants who took it from an automobile enterprise in Donetsk,’ local news agency Unian quoted him as saying.

‘And three years later we managed to detain this man as he crossed the border into the territory under our control from the Russian Federation. Now he is serving a sentence here, in Ukraine.’

The news, which has not been verified by the Dutch public prosecution department, came on the fifth anniversary of the shooting down of the plane, killing 298 passengers and crew.

Mayakov did not identify the individual or explain why this information was not released earlier. He did say more than 150 people involved in transporting the missile launcher to and from Ukraine had been identified.

Court

Four suspects currently face prosecution in the Netherlands in connection with the disaster, even though prosecutors admit that there is little chance that they will turn up in a Dutch court.

The Joint Investigation Team (JIT) said last month it had identified four key suspects who ‘cooperated to obtain and deploy the Buk [missile] at the firing location with the aim of shooting down an aircraft.’

Three of the suspects are Russian and one is Ukrainian and all played key roles in the self-proclaimed ‘Donetsk People’s Republic’ in eastern Ukraine.
 

angelburst29

The Living Force
FOTCM Member
Russia in confidential consultations with the Netherlands on MH17 crash — senior diplomat


© Valentin Sprinchak/TASS

MOSCOW, July 19, 2019 - Russia is having confidential consultations with the Netherlands on MH17 flight that was downed over Donbass in July 2014, Russian Deputy Foreign Minister Alexander Grushko said on Friday.

"Such consultations are underway, but we agreed that the process will have a confidential character," the diplomat noted.

The first trilateral meeting involving Russian, Dutch and Australian representatives on the MH17 case was held in March.

A Boeing-777 passenger plane operated by Malaysian Airlines crashed on July 17, 2014, en route from Amsterdam to Kuala Lumpur in the east of the Donetsk region. As many as 283 passengers and 15 crew — nationals of 10 states — were killed. Despite combat operation on the ground, Kiev opted not to close airspace for international passenger aircraft over the area. The Joint Investigation Team (JIT) including representatives of the Netherlands, Australia, Belgium, Malaysia and Ukraine was set up. Russia has repeatedly stated it mistrusts the JIT’s findings as being ungrounded. Moreover, the team has been reluctant to use Russia’s arguments in the course of the probe.
 

Joe

Administrator
Administrator
Moderator
FOTCM Member
To me it looks like most of the holes have the metal bent to the outside, so logically the impact would have been from the inside.
Late reply (understatement). Notice there are holes where the metal is bent in and those where it is bent out. Both can be consistent with armor piercing ammunition, it just depends on the angel of the bullet. See this short vid. If you add in the likelihood that some or all of the rounds were high-explosive incendiary/armor-piercing, then all bets are off as far as entry holes are concerned.

140725-mh17-wreckage-630a_62ae89d53c01c891b1da5c52375ce5f8.jpg
 
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Palinurus

The Living Force
BREAKING: New John Helmer article on SOTT with --if confirmed-- crucial details filling some gaping holes in the official narrative:

New MH17 doc reveals evidence tampering, Dutch cover-up of forged recordings, hidden Ukrainian radar records -- Sott.net

Some snippets:

The film reveals the Malaysian Government's evidence for judging the JIT's witness testimony, photographs, video clips, and telephone tapes to have been manipulated by the Ukrainian Security Service (SBU), and to be inadmissible in a criminal prosecution in a Malaysian or other national or international court.

For the first time also, the Malaysian Government reveals how it got in the way of attempts the US was organizing during the first week after the crash to launch a NATO military attack on eastern Ukraine. The cover story for that was to rescue the plane, passenger bodies, and evidence of what had caused the crash. In fact, the operation was aimed at defeating the separatist movements in the Donbass, and to move against Russian-held Crimea.

The new film reveals that a secret Malaysian military operation took custody of the MH17 black boxes on July 22, preventing the US and Ukraine from seizing them. The Malaysian operation, revealed in the film by the Malaysian Army colonel who led it, eliminated the evidence for the camouflage story, reinforcing the German Government's opposition to the armed attack, and forcing the Dutch to call off the invasion on July 27.
<...>
With eleven men, including two medical specialists, a signalman, and Malaysian Army commandos, Sakri had raced to the site ahead of an armed convoy of Australian, Dutch and Ukrainian government men. The latter were blocked by Donetsk separatist units. The Australian state press agency ABC reported their military convoy, prodded from Kiev by the appearance of Australian and Dutch foreign ministers Julie Bishop and Frans Timmermans, had been forced to abandon their mission. That was after Colonel Sakri had taken custody of the MH17 black boxes in a handover ceremony filmed at Borodai's office in Donetsk on July 22.

US sources told the Wall Street Journal at the time "the [Sakri] mission's success delivered a political victory for Mr. Najib's government... it also handed a gift to the rebels in the form of an accord, signed by the top Malaysian official present in Donetsk, calling the crash site 'the territory of the Donetsk People's Republic.'...That recognition could antagonize Kiev and Washington, which have striven not to give any credibility to the rebels, whose main leaders are Russian citizens with few ties to the area. State Department deputy spokeswoman Marie Harf said in a briefing Monday that the negotiation 'in no way legitimizes' separatists."
<...>
Van der Werff and Yerlashova contracted with OG IT Forensic Services, a Malaysian firm specializing in forensic analysis of audio, video and digital materials for court proceedings, to examine the telephone tapes. The Kuala Lumpur firm has been endorsed by the Malaysian Bar. The full 143-page technical report can be read here.
[...]
The findings reported by Akash Rosen and illustrated on camera are that the telephone recordings have been cut, edited and fabricated. The source of the tapes, according to the JIT press conference on June 19 by Dutch police officer Paulissen, head of the National Criminal Investigation Service of The Netherlands, was the Ukrainian SBU. Similar findings of tape fabrication and evidence tampering are reported on camera in the van der Werff film by a German analyst, Norman Ritter.
<...>
Concluding the documentary, van der Werff and Yerlashova present an earlier interview filmed in Donetsk by independent Dutch journalist Stefan Beck, whom JIT officials had tried to warn off visiting the area. Beck interviewed Yevgeny Volkov, who was an air controller for the Ukrainian Air Force in July 2014. Volkov was asked to comment on Ukrainian Government statements, endorsed by the Dutch Safety Board report into the crash and in subsequent reports by the JIT, that there were no radar records of the airspace at the time of the shoot-down because Ukrainian military radars were not operational.
[...]
Volkov explained that on July 17 there were three radar units at Chuguev on "full alert" because "fighter jets were taking off from there;" Chuguev is 200 kilometres northwest of the crash site. He disputed that the repairs to one unit meant none of the three was operating. Ukrainian radar records of the location and time of the MH17 attack were made and kept, Volkov said. "There [they] have it. In Ukraine they have it."
 
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