Recommended Books: Discussion

[GMFaudio]

Have-you read the psy books?

If not, they could be very useful to help you to understand and clean your machine.

I have not, I do not know what they are, but I am all about cleaning out the old muck for some new absorption.

Thanks for the quick reply!

 

[gwb1995]

The complete recommended reading list is contained at the bottom of page 6 of this thread. Check it out and happy reading.

 

[Turgon]

But I would advice that one should first read In Search of The Miraculous to get a some kind of introduction to Gurdjieff's teachings, before reading Beezlebub.

I totally agree with that.

Blah! I found a rare and used bookstore yesterday that has almost everything on the recommended reading list! And in my excitement in purchasing a number of books on the recommended reading list, I picked up In Search of P.D. Ouspensky INSTEAD of ISOTM!! I might not be able to go back there for a little while either.

Will it really be that difficult to read the All and Everything series without reading ISOTM first? I wanted to start with Beelzebub's tales, but it seems I should wait on that.

 

[anart]

Blah!  I found a rare and used bookstore yesterday that has almost everything on the recommended reading list!  And in my excitement in purchasing a number of books on the recommended reading list, I picked up In Search of P.D. Ouspensky INSTEAD of ISOTM!!  I might not be able to go back there for a little while either.

Will it really be that difficult to read the All and Everything series without reading ISOTM first?  I wanted to start with Beelzebub's tales, but it seems I should wait on that.

Well, I don't think the world will end  (although, if it does, as you open the pages of Beelzebub, we'll all look accusingly in your direction...).  Beelzebub is written to be difficult to read.  It is written to stop automatic thought processes, so you might find it quite slow going at first, which is quite usual.  If you are not familiar with the 4th Way at all, the reason ISOTM is suggested as initial reading is that it is much easier to read and gives a sort of overview that 'gears you up a bit', for the All and Everything Series.

So, you could always read a bit of Beezlebub and see how it sits, since it is at hand - or go ahead and order ISOTM  - either way, you'll learn something.  ;)

 

[manitoban]

Beelzebub is written to be difficult to read. It is written to stop automatic though processes, so you might find it quite slow going at first, which is quite usual. If you are not familiar with the 4th Way at all, the reason ISOTM is suggested as initial reading is that it is much easier to read and gives a sort of overview that 'gears you up a bit', for the All and Everything Series.

Yes! Daniel, fwiw, I read ISOTM first, and then started Beelzebub - that was a few years ago and I am only now on page 598! It was very slow going for a long time, reading a single page or two was as much as I could grok at one time. Now it's finally going a bit faster and easier to read, but if I hadn't read ISOTM first, I think it would have been quite difficult (at least for me), to even begin to understand Beelzebub.

 

[T.C.]

For me, reading Beelzebubs tales was extremely difficult and frustrating, because I was trying to understand it. And not just allegorically either; the extremely long and pedantically structured sentences often had the effect that by the time I got to the end of one, I'd forgotten how it had started, and what was the topic being addressed!

The answer was to "relax". And just read it, as G. suggested, automatically with the moving centre, in a casual manner.

Once I did that, amazingly, I was able to "keep up with him" in the sentences, and it actually became a very enjoyable and fascinating read.

(added) Hmm... The Holy Grail of Non-anticipation, anyone?

 

[Turgon]

Thanks! I'll probably open up Beelzebub's tale first and see how things go. And in the meantime try to find a copy of ISOTM. It seems like I'll be reading Beelzebub's tale for a while!

Although I find this confusing

The answer was to "relax". And just read it, as G. suggested, automatically with the moving centre, in a casual manner.

Beelzebub is written to be difficult to read. It is written to stop automatic though processes, so you might find it quite slow going at first, which is quite usual.

Either way, I guess I'll find out for myself soon enough!

 

[anart]

Thanks! I'll probably open up Beelzebub's tale first and see how things go. And in the meantime try to find a copy of ISOTM. It seems like I'll be reading Beelzebub's tale for a while!

Although I find this confusing

The answer was to "relax". And just read it, as G. suggested, automatically with the moving centre, in a casual manner.

Beelzebub is written to be difficult to read. It is written to stop automatic thought processes, so you might find it quite slow going at first, which is quite usual.

Yes, I'm not quite sure what T.C. means by that, so I can understand why you would find it confusing. T.C., would you like to clarify? If you did read it 'automatically', perhaps it's time to attempt to read it consciously?

 

[T.C.]

T.C., would you like to clarify?

I would spend time reading and rereading certain passages, trying to comprehend, until I just gave in and "carried on regardless". When I put pressure on myself to try to figure it out, I would get annoyed that I couldn't. So I just thought, "I shouldn't be so hard on myself, if I can't figure it out, then I can't figure it out." Instead of reading slowly, I read it quickly.

So, that obviously means that, if anyone wants to understand it, don't follow the T.C. method of reading.

If you did read it 'automatically', perhaps it's time to attempt to read it consciously?

There is a scared feeling that comes with thinking about reading it again; it makes me feel stupid, and I hate feeling stupid. The negative introject tells me not to bother. That I'll never understand it and it'll just be a waste time. And I believe that's true.

I guess that all adds up to the fact that it should go to the top of the pile.

 

[nemo]

For me, reading Beelzebubs tales was extremely difficult and frustrating, because I was trying to understand it

You should also keep in mind that Gurdjieff`s special instructions from Beelzebub are to read the book three times:

Read each of my written expositions thrice First - at least as you have already become mechanized to read all your contemporary books and newspapers,
Second - as if you were reading aloud to another person, And only Third - try to fathom the gist of my writings ...

This book is not meant to be groked completely in your first reading. Don`t try ;).
To my understanding trying to understand it during the first run through it might actually be detrimental.
I`ve just finished my first reading and I read it as if it were something by Pynchon .
The language is not a main problem (that is, if you`re not a Lee Child addict ),
though I`m sure G could have expressed himself more lucidly, had he wanted that.
The main problem for an intellectual understanding are the 400 "artifical words".
I`m myself tempted to create a little Beelzebub dictionary during my next reading
instead of reading it aloud to my ... essence.

So already anticipating a difficult book I was surprised that I quite liked the "tone" of
G`s voice. There were at least three or four occasions were I`d read a 100 pg or so in
one sitting (I couldn`t stop). It took me about 6-8 weeks (reading other stuff besides).

I did read it mostly at the weekend when I knew I had at least 2 hrs reading time.
When I would read only a few pages I regularly found that I absolutely couldn`t concentrate on it.

So long post, little sense: You don`t have to read ISOTM first. A little intro into G`s teachings
certainly wouldn`t hurt but if right now you`re gung ho to get into G`s "lumbering flying cathedral", by all means,
go ahead!

 

[Renaissance]

So, that obviously means that, if anyone wants to understand it, don't follow the T.C. method of reading.

What's the purpose of reading a book if you gave up trying to understand it? I'm not being rhetorical here, I'm curious as to why you read it in this way.

 

[T.C.]

What's the purpose of reading a book if you gave up trying to understand it? I'm not being rhetorical here, I'm curious as to why you read it in this way.

Firstly because I enjoyed the atmosphere and flavour and originality of it. And it wasn't that I understood nothing, just that when I came across the more difficult passages, I'd read them at face value.

Secondly, because I really wanted to read Meetings and Life is real, and you're supposed to read Beelzebub first.

 

[Laura]

I'm going to admit right here in front of God and Everybody, that I have never read Beelzebub's Tales all the way through. I've read bits and pieces, and Ark has read passages to me and has discussed some of them with me, and he has read it a couple of times, so I figure on the "two shall become one" theory, that I've read enough of it!

I get a lot more out of the psychological books we recommend and discuss and I DO re-read ISOTM and Mouravieff and Lobaczewski a LOT.

So, there you have it...

 

[Tigersoap]

I'm going to admit right here in front of God and Everybody, that I have never read Beelzebub's Tales all the way through. I've read bits and pieces, and Ark has read passages to me and has discussed some of them with me, and he has read it a couple of times, so I figure on the "two shall become one" theory, that I've read enough of it!

Haha thank you for the honesty :)
Soooo...the whole trick is to make it read by someone else that is close to you :D

*squint eyes toward my wife*

I've read a good third of it so far, when I don't disconnect from myself to take a walk in unicorn country because it is mind-bogglingly difficult to grasp sometimes it is quite funny to read, and I suppose reading it in something else than my mother tongue does not help either.

 

[anart]

I'm going to admit right here in front of God and Everybody, that I have never read Beelzebub's Tales all the way through. I've read bits and pieces, and Ark has read passages to me and has discussed some of them with me, and he has read it a couple of times, so I figure on the "two shall become one" theory, that I've read enough of it!

- aww, it really is a very good story, though, quite entertaining and funny in its way.

I get a lot more out of the psychological books we recommend and discuss and I DO re-read ISOTM and Mouravieff and Lobaczewski a LOT.

So, there you have it...

Yeah, you kind of more than make up for it in that category...