Session 20 August 2011

[manza]

Thank you for your response. My words are not meant to be provocative. I want to understand your point of view.

Thanks for clearing that up.

We have to eat a little bit to survive in this reality. It is absurd imo and a STS-concept. It seems we both agree it's STS.

I'm not sure what you mean here, manza. What is absurd and an STS concept? The fact that we have to eat to survive? I don't think it is absurd. I think it is life. To me it is both horrible and beautiful. Horrible because I empathize with the suffering of any kind, beautiful because despite the horror, there is life, possibility, balance, growth, etc. Also, I get the impression that you are equating STS with "bad" in the moral sense. There is nothing wrong with STS, it is simply what it is. Our bodies are STS bodies. They require external substances - food, air, light, touch - in order to survive. It's simply the way things are. However, there are different attitudes one can take towards our STS nature. One can recoil in horror and deny the fact (which is a lie to the self, something that is not conducive to growth), one can revel in it (which is the epitome of STS, I think), or one can accept it and learn to navigate this reality with respect, remorse, compassion, and knowledge.

It's not a moral issue. It is as it is. I'm just not impressed by the concept / design

However, to kill other life forms not only to survive but to get their consciousness sounds even more STS to me.

I think it is simply a description of nature. To survive essentially means to assimilate the consciousness of another being. I think in this discussion we need to ask ourselves 'what is consciousness?' I think that the level and type of consciousness (awareness, being) has an effect on matter, and so the matter of different types of organisms will have a different quality (e.g. I would say there is a difference between a cow that is tortured and fed grain, and one that is free to live a comfortable life and eat what it is designed to eat). When you eat a vegetable, you are consuming its consciousness, or whatever traces exist within its gross matter. Same with a cow. Gurdjieff called the substances in food "active elements", and I'd hazard a guess that this term applies to nutrients, vitamins, minerals, essential fats and amino acids, as well as 'substances' of which science doesn't really have a good understanding, perhaps affected by the quality of life of the animal or plant in question. Just like a cow can be tortured and fed poison (leaving it high in inflammatory omega-6's, as well as the possible effects caused by the traumatic emotions involved in its life), a vegetable can be grown in depleted soils, leaving it starved of its own essential minerals. I really recommend you read Lierre Keith's book, The Vegetarian Myth, to really put these ideas in perspective.

It's not my intention to argue about eating vegs or animals. If you believe or are convinced that eating meat is better for the body than vegs, that's fine.
I just was surprised that "eating flesh also means eating consciousness which accumulates" and that you will eat a much higher level of consciousness when you eat meat. Eating meat is even a "sacrament"

So, killing and eating an animal is not only good for the body, but also good for the 'spirit' and will get you sooner to a higher level of existence. It sounded more STS to me than eating is already, but maybe I'm wrong.

Mod: quote tags fixed

 

[Approaching Infinity]

I don't want to argue about eating veg or meat. I just wondered about the text in this session:

Manza, please re-read the responses you've already received. They have more than answered your question, but I'll try again, because you seem to be having some difficulties in comprehension, i.e. you are missing the point. The point is, the Cs are NOT saying, "You should want to eat meat, and in fact eat meat, because then you can eat the animal's consciousness and get benefits." As has been stated by numerous posters already, it seems that the point was more along the lines of, "This is why such a diet works, what is actually going on in the body." It is a statement of the way things are, the way they work in nature. It is not a moral mandate or a selfish imperative for "soul-eating". You are reading these statements with your own assumptions and preconceived notions, which is seemingly greatly hindering your ability to comprehend what is actually being said.

Now, the question is, can you see this? Can you see how you are missing the point and coloring these ideas with your own prejudices? This is actually very appropriate for the discussion at hand, because it brings us to one of the main points the members here have been making. One of the benefits of eating a normal diet (i.e. plenty of animal fats) is that our brain gets all the nutrients it requires, and thinking processes becomes clearer. As Ms. Gedgaudas mentions in the lecture I posted, she found the vegans and vegetarians have the worst brain degeneration of any of her patients. When you starve the body of what it needs to function, it doesn't function. Make sense?

Q: (L) So, eating flesh also means eating consciousness which accumulates, I'm assuming is what is being implied here, or what feeds our consciousness so that it grows in step with our bodies? Is that close?

A: Close enough.

Q: (Ailen) And when you eat veggies you're basically eating a much lower level of consciousness. (L) Not only that, but in a sense you're rejecting the gift and you're not feeding consciousness. And that means that all eating of meat should be a sacrament.

A: Yes

If I understand correctly, you will eat a much higher level of consciousness when you eat meat.
A good reason to kill an animal and eat meat, don't you think?

If you think it's a good reason, by all means, try it out. But as has been stated repeatedly, this has not been a motivation for most of our decisions to eat an animal-based diet. The reasons are based on science and nutrition, and RESULTS. In other words: our bodies were designed for this diet, and it WORKS. Members here have experienced countless health-related benefits (physical, mental, emotional) from adopting such a diet. Perhaps this is because of what the Cs say about consciousness. Perhaps not. But the motivation is because it is NATURAL and it WORKS.

Again, if you are serious about understanding these topics, check out the resources mentioned already: the "Life Without Bread" and "Vegetarian Myth" threads on this forum, as well as the books by those names. You can also watch the video I posted and read the book by the speaker: Primal Body, Primal Mind. I think you'll learn a not that you never knew you didn't know! :)

 

[manza]

I don't want to argue about eating veg or meat.

manza, if you want to really understand this conversation, I would recommend that you read the Vegetarian Myth - it is discussed here on this forum. It doesn't come down to 'whatever is right for each person' - there is a truth here and it is that vegetarianism destroys the human organism.

Regarding the part of the session that you are obsessing over, I would offer the idea that consciousness is energy and all that exists is energy and, thus consciousness. Do you understand? In this reality, all entities must consume energy (which is consciousness) to survive and as one evolves, what must be consumed changes. Plants eat minerals, animals eat plants, humans eat animals - see? All of it is consciousness, all of it is energy, so perhaps it's time for you (if you are sincere) to read through the diet and health threads on this forum in order to get up to speed on the reality of our shared situation.

Very good comment. Yes, I think you are right. All that exists is life / energy. So, why would eating meat give you more or better 'consciousness'? Is the energy not 'one' and cannot be separated into 'lower' and 'higher'?

 

[Approaching Infinity]

Very good comment. Yes, I think you are right. All that exists is life / energy. So, why would eating meat give you more or better 'consciousness'? Is the energy not 'one' and cannot be separated into 'lower' and 'higher'?

Manza, are you familiar with the work of Gurdjieff, and/or the work of Laura, whose forum this is?

 

[Mountain Crown]

Many thanks to Laura and team for this session.

 

[anart]

Very good comment. Yes, I think you are right. All that exists is life / energy. So, why would eating meat give you more or better 'consciousness'? Is the energy not 'one' and cannot be separated into 'lower' and 'higher'?

That has been explained. Please re-read my comment and others in this thread. If you are incapable of comprehending what is being written to you, then there is nothing to be done to help you, though this is a typical result of a vegetarian diet. Please stop posting the same question over and over and over again or your posting privileges will be removed.

 

[manza]

I don't want to argue about eating veg or meat. I just wondered about the text in this session:

Manza, please re-read the responses you've already received. They have more than answered your question, but I'll try again, because you seem to be having some difficulties in comprehension, i.e. you are missing the point. The point is, the Cs are NOT saying, "You should want to eat meat, and in fact eat meat, because then you can eat the animal's consciousness and get benefits." As has been stated by numerous posters already, it seems that the point was more along the lines of, "This is why such a diet works, what is actually going on in the body." It is a statement of the way things are, the way they work in nature. It is not a moral mandate or a selfish imperative for "soul-eating". You are reading these statements with your own assumptions and preconceived notions, which is seemingly greatly hindering your ability to comprehend what is actually being said.

Now, the question is, can you see this? Can you see how you are missing the point and coloring these ideas with your own prejudices? This is actually very appropriate for the discussion at hand, because it brings us to one of the main points the members here have been making. One of the benefits of eating a normal diet (i.e. plenty of animal fats) is that our brain gets all the nutrients it requires, and thinking processes becomes clearer. As Ms. Gedgaudas mentions in the lecture I posted, she found the vegans and vegetarians have the worst brain degeneration of any of her patients. When you starve the body of what it needs to function, it doesn't function. Make sense?

Q: (L) So, eating flesh also means eating consciousness which accumulates, I'm assuming is what is being implied here, or what feeds our consciousness so that it grows in step with our bodies? Is that close?

A: Close enough.

Q: (Ailen) And when you eat veggies you're basically eating a much lower level of consciousness. (L) Not only that, but in a sense you're rejecting the gift and you're not feeding consciousness. And that means that all eating of meat should be a sacrament.

A: Yes

If I understand correctly, you will eat a much higher level of consciousness when you eat meat.
A good reason to kill an animal and eat meat, don't you think?

If you think it's a good reason, by all means, try it out. But as has been stated repeatedly, this has not been a motivation for most of our decisions to eat an animal-based diet. The reasons are based on science and nutrition, and RESULTS. In other words: our bodies were designed for this diet, and it WORKS. Members here have experienced countless health-related benefits (physical, mental, emotional) from adopting such a diet. Perhaps this is because of what the Cs say about consciousness. Perhaps not. But the motivation is because it is NATURAL and it WORKS.

Again, if you are serious about understanding these topics, check out the resources mentioned already: the "Life Without Bread" and "Vegetarian Myth" threads on this forum, as well as the books by those names. You can also watch the video I posted and read the book by the speaker: Primal Body, Primal Mind. I think you'll learn a not that you never knew you didn't know! :)

Thank you for your advice to do more research about the human diet. Food for thought.

 

[manza]

Very good comment. Yes, I think you are right. All that exists is life / energy. So, why would eating meat give you more or better 'consciousness'? Is the energy not 'one' and cannot be separated into 'lower' and 'higher'?

That has been explained. Please re-read my comment and others in this thread. If you are incapable of comprehending what is being written to you, then there is nothing to be done to help you, though this is a typical result of a vegetarian diet. Please stop posting the same question over and over and over again or your posting privileges will be removed.

the anger of a wild animal comes out :)

 

[manza]

Very good comment. Yes, I think you are right. All that exists is life / energy. So, why would eating meat give you more or better 'consciousness'? Is the energy not 'one' and cannot be separated into 'lower' and 'higher'?

Manza, are you familiar with the work of Gurdjieff, and/or the work of Laura, whose forum this is?

Yes, I am. Just wondered about the statement that you can eat consciousness and that eating meat is a sacrament. Sorry for asking.

 

[Mark]

the anger of a wild animal comes out :)

Manza, that's borderline disrespectful.

People here are trying to help you. BUT for that to be effective you have to help yourself by using your brain to THINK. You've been given a lot of info and perspective and suggestions. Time for you to take a step back and gather info, process it, and maybe formulate some rational questions...

 

[Approaching Infinity]

Very good comment. Yes, I think you are right. All that exists is life / energy. So, why would eating meat give you more or better 'consciousness'? Is the energy not 'one' and cannot be separated into 'lower' and 'higher'?

Manza, are you familiar with the work of Gurdjieff, and/or the work of Laura, whose forum this is?

Yes, I am. Just wondered about the statement that you can eat consciousness and that eating meat is a sacrament. Sorry for asking.

Manza, you're still missing the point. I asked if you were familiar with their works, because if you had been, you would know the answers to your two questions. In other words, you wouldn't even ask the questions in the first place. So again, I have to conclude that either you are NOT familiar with their works, or you simply did not comprehend them, which would make sense, given how this exchange has gone so far. So far, you have repeatedly asked the same question, even after receiving multiple answers. You have misinterpreted statements and asked questions with several assumptions, all of which have had to be pointed out to you. You've also completely misread the intentions of the posters here (e.g. that last comment to anart was untrue and totally uncalled for). And now, you've added sarcasm to the list. You ain't helping yourself out here, manza. Probably best to getting to reading and trying to formulate some rational questions, as m has suggested.

 

[manza]

the anger of a wild animal comes out :)

Manza, that's borderline disrespectful.

People here are trying to help you. BUT for that to be effective you have to help yourself by using your brain to THINK. You've been given a lot of info and perspective and suggestions. Time for you to take a step back and gather info, process it, and maybe formulate some rational questions...

Sorry. It was a response to "this is a typical result of a vegetarian diet."

 

[Mikey]

manza, I can recommend this video to you. It's an inverview with Lierre Keith, author of "The Vegetarian Myth":

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rNON5iNf07o

 

[anart]

Sorry. It was a response to "this is a typical result of a vegetarian diet."

It was a response of anger, projecting anger onto me. Quiet frankly, you are wasting the forum's time and energy here. What would you say about a person who asks a question, gets multiple responses that explain the answer and then continues to ask the same question?

What would you do if this person walked into your kitchen, sat down at your table while you were having a discussion with your friend/family and did exactly that to you? Would you allow them to stay in your kitchen repeatedly asking the same question that you've already answered? Would you allow them to stay in your kitchen as they got sarcastic and snippy because the answers you gave did not satisfy them since they had not attempted to educate themselves at all on the topic?

In short, it's time for you to get up to speed on the basic premises of spiritual evolution and embodiment and then these answers will make sense. It is also time for you to stop acting like a troll. I suggest you start with the Wave Series.

 

[manza]

manza, I can recommend this video to you. It's an inverview with Lierre Keith, author of "The Vegetarian Myth":

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rNON5iNf07o

Thank you for this Food for thought.