Session 22 February 2010

[Alana]

Thanks to you all for turning this unfortunate experience into a teaching tool for us all. My heart goes out to Sue, Bob & Baby. I cannot imagine the challenges ahead for them.


I just noticed this comment about the session, that someone posted on Facebook:

Shayne Knuckles O'Connor
wow, way to assassinate the characters of a mother and a baby ... you guys are absolute arseholes! it's one thing to post a massive, repetitive rant about a woman who is obviously under a lot of stress with a sick baby, but then to actually insult a 15-month old baby because it doesn't fit in with the fanatical ideas of your group is quite evil and insane.

Actually, for anyone with 2 neurons firing, it is pretty clear that the fact that the chateau people really observed the baby and noted that something was developmentally off with him, shows more genuine care towards him than his in-denial mother and father. Noting things, researching them and trying to find the healthiest lifestyle for the child is the only way to help him grow the best way possible whatever the condition! It's child abuse to play the ostrich and hide one's head in the earth so that they do not have to face their uncomfortable feelings.

I too am thankful for posting this session, and i appreciate the thoughtfulness and commitment behind your decision.

And though i feel for Bob, Sue and the baby, the decisions and choices the adults of the trio are making, are far from even common sense. Especially those concerning their offspring(s).

 

[Lilou]

Thanks to all involved for this session. I am happy you decided to share it, as it is very timely for me personally as well. Just last night, I “evicted” my own Houseguest from Hell. Briefly, I will just say that against my better judgement, and partly because my husband was traveling overseas for 6 weeks, I agreed to let a friend stay with me 3 nights per week while she finished up course work in an Occupational Therapy program.

Once her finances were in proper order mid-January, I assumed she would move on and be able to take care of herself, and let my family life resume. Wrong! She was soon asking to stay 7 nights per week. Her behavior was shocking. She had no external consideration for me or my family, she used my personal hygiene items, smoked my tobacco, asked me to wait on her continuously, constantly wanted me to edit her homework assignments or just simply do her work…it is a long rant, I’ll spare all the details. It was a huge energy drain.

I was planning to have ‘the talk’ with her today. Telling her she could no longer stay. Not 3 days a week, not any days. Period. She saved me the trouble by her own behavior.

The icing on the cake came last evening, when instead of simply packing and leaving for home as planned... She went to a bar, got drunk, couldn’t drive, got a ride, only because the fellow knew my husband and I and graciously agreed to drive her the 20 miles to our house. And then, invites the fellow to spend the night with her, in my house, without even consulting me! I had met the fellow twice, as he was a patron of our restaurant, but not someone I would consider a close friend. And certainly not somebody I would allow to stay in my home, uninvited.

My husband and I had to put our foot down, told her if she wanted to spend the night with him, why bring him here? Go to his place. So she dressed to leave and my husband said just pack everything and I am so sorry, you cannot stay here anymore.

I have the utmost respect for Laura and the folks at QFS. Indeed, such interactions with people are a learning experience, and not necessarily fun, but necessary. I too thought about the consortium and vectors sent to derail the work. It will take me days to reflect on all of this. I am not only learning valuable lessons by reading this here, but actually lived a similar situation, up close and personal. I will not take all of this lightly.

I hope all at the chateau are making a speedy recovery. Thank you again for sharing.

 

[Ennio]

A couple people on the forum noticed that I was up at 3:30 a.m. last night/this morning; the reason is I spent a rather sleepless night agonizing over what I am going to publish here.

As I read this above, and the rest of Laura's post and the session, it seems clear to me that she had suffered in more ways than one during this episode - in order to bring it's truths to us. First, there were all the things that happened at the chateau: the preparation for Bob and Sue and baby, the 'high strangeness' goings on, half the crew falling ill around her, trying to find the right way to communicate that not all was well with the baby, the painful fall that left Laura with an injured hand and, finally, the insulting and hurtful behavior by Sue.

Then, to make sense of it all, there is all the work of putting all these pieces together Laura had to do - and the accompanying drain of having to think about it, what it means, and then what to do about it. And even then - god - there is the choice to act on what the C's suggested and what Laura knew was the right thing to do - put it together for everyone to learn from - including, hopefully, Bob and, however improbably, Sue.

This whole event reminded me of the idea of Conscious Suffering. Of choosing to act on some knowledge that is painful even to think about, simply because it is the right thing to do. And because it is done with the conscience of what it means to the people involved - in this case people in the groups that she works with, came to know and care about - the efforts required must have been ten times larger for that alone. Because even if Bob has some inkling of what all this means, Laura knows better than anyone - and is probably suffering for them and their predicament.

So thank you, Laura. Who knows how many people will read what you wrote and prevent what's described from happening to themselves because of it.

 

[go2]

I think the key are the application of knowledge and networking. Vigilance would be present thanks to both of these. At some level, Bob chose not to network, and not to apply what he "knew" theoretically. But Gurdjieff also talked about the line of knowledge and the line of being, as well as the difference between knowledge and understanding. To remember this is helpful in this context, I think. From ISOTM:

Ailen, thanks for posting the passage on knowledge and being.The well educated middle class in this age is full of knowledge with little or no being. I find it necessary to do
hard physical work in the morning, so I can think in the afternoon. Gurdjieff recommends conscious labor and intentional suffering. Perhaps, the soft middle class will find the developing economic and political realities an opportunity to labor for their daily bread and learn a new respect for plumbers and farmers.

We lie to ourselves and do not know true from false, until being and knowledge become understanding. Unfortunately, life's lessons will be learned the hard way as life moves on. The value of a network is to give us sufficient objectivity to avoid mistakes without remedy. It is advantageous for blind men and women to combine and compare notes on the nature of the elephant. It is messy, but time doesn't wait and our vision is limited. Thanks for this session, Laura.

So, Bob and Sue got married and somewhere in there went through InVitro Fertilization. Apparently, Bob really wanted a baby of his and Sue wasn’t getting pregnant the normal way. They had a number of failures with the procedure and then, on what was supposed to be the last try, it took. They thereafter referred to the child as their “miracle baby” for this reason. You'll soon see why this is so tragically ironic.

Does InVitro Fertilization increase the risk of autism?

Yet for some, according to research published last week, the cost could be high. A study at the University of California appears to show that children born by IVF are more likely to be diagnosed with autism, childhood cancers and cerebral palsy. The researchers used more than 19,000 medical records to compare the pregnancies, births and child health outcomes of fertile women with those of women who conceived after fertility treatment and those who conceived naturally after a long period of infertility. They also found that children born to infertile women were 40 per cent more likely to have attention deficit hyperactivity disorder and 20 per cent more likely to be born with low birth weight.

Letting your emotions cloud your judgment in this way is typical of those of us touched by infertility. According to a Scottish survey, women awaiting IVF are more willing to have a child with a chronic adverse birth outcome including cerebral palsy and cognitive and visual impairment than have no child at all. I empathise with this desperation, but we parents have buried our heads in the sand for long enough. An IVF baby may be an everyday miracle, but we need the hard facts to find out what we're letting ourselves in for.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_548-H1Cl7Y A TV news clip on new studies confirming association of IVF and autism. The rate of autism in ART children is
ten times the rate of autism in children conceived by natural reproduction.

Edit: IMHO....The infertility industry profits from human emotion, ignorance, and suffering; offering a "miracle " contravening natural infertility and miscarriage
protection from birthing weak and defective children. It is an industry with knowledge and no common sense.

Edit: These new studies linking ART and autism are in the news today. Here is more from the industry.....

Really? I think we'd better be worried. We'd better be worried enough to demand, and conduct, more research in all of these areas so that the causative, and proof of concept relationships can be identified, reduced or diminished. We'd better be worried about the health and well being of infertility patients, cancer patients, and their offspring. We'd better be more focused on the public health and future of our country than we are about profits for the plastics, or infertility industry. I personally am worried as hell.

Almost two years ago Ken Mosesian and I were invited to participate in a think tank at Yale on this subject. One of the participants was Patricia Davis MD, the lead author on currently released research linking IVF and autism. Dr. Davis and her colleagues, comprised of physicians and allied scientists from both Harvard and Yale, began to experience concern when they realized how many children in the special ed system had parents who reported doing some form of ART. You don't have to be a scientist to observe this. You simply have to be a mom with a kid in the special ed school system, like me. More than half of the boys (yes, they are usually boys) in my son's school were born as part of a twin set to older parents who utilized IVF to conceive them. Three separate variables. Dr. Davis and her colleagues casually started to comment upon this phenomena to each other and they wanted to know if the experiences of The AFA staff were similar to their own. Which, if any, of these factors are at work? They wanted to find out. They were worried. And after comparing notes, so were we.

 

[mcb]

Oh my, what a time you all had. I hope everyone is feeling better now. I caught a "bug" similar to that from a housemate a few years ago--I came down with it about 3 days or so after she did--and it was not fun. And I can imagine how difficult it was to decide about publishing the session.

The story of "Bob and Sue" has a familiar ring to it. The details are different each time but isn't there some kind of general pattern to it that repeats over and over?

I am on the autistic spectrum myself (an "Aspie"), and I can comment a little on this part of the session:

...
Q: (L) Okay. Let's go back to the baby. Now, the question was already asked: "Is he autistic?" I think I would have asked the question differently. I would have asked, "Is something wrong with him?" You answered already the question, "Is he autistic?" with "Yes". Is this autism that he is exhibiting, is it genetic or just chemical?

A: Both in this case.

Q: (L) Is it severe?

A: Can be.

Q: (L) In other words, at this point, it could be ameliorated. Is that it?

A: Yes. But Sue has so much to do with her own issues it is not likely that she can do what is necessary.
...

Whatever is going on with this child would appear to me to be very severe at this point, because he is so young and yet is already behaving this way. I wouldn't call him "high functioning" from what I have read here. Even severe cases can sometimes be treatable, though, if the parents are responsive enough to their child's needs and can provide enough of the right kind of stimulation. It can be very difficult for parents and child. I made these observations from reading the background story, before I saw the transcript. The C's comments are right on.

A genetic predisposition combined with a chemical trigger would be very possible. There is also a correlation between older parents and autism rates.

 

[Arctodus]

My god this is a horrible session; extremely informative, but so saddening
Thank you very much for publishing this and I wish the best to "Bob", "Sue" and their family, may they all heal from the evil placed upon them. Blessings to all the members at the chateau and may you all recover safely and quickly.

Agreed, things do seem to be "speeding up". The STS puppets and the masters are feeling the heat from their overlords as everything falls apart around them all in spite of the millennial long plan which is simply _not_ following any of their desired pathways. The STS overlords must be freaking out more and more as the hunger builds up uncontrollably inside of them. They _know_ they're going to be consumed and no amount of soul smashing or attempts at re-incarnating into 3-D vessels is going to save them in the long term. We are seeing the desperate flailing of a wounded and cornered monster. Unfortunately, it's going to try to take everything with it that it can. We can only try to stay out of the monster's way.

 

[istina]

Thank you for publishing this session! I understand that posting this was not an easy decision! :(
So much to learn from that!
When such thing could hapend to old member of the forum...

I have grown up son and to think what could happen to him when "so many woman outthere are programming and waiting".... :(
"it's a tale old as time."

Really a valuable lesson to learn to be aware and to see distinction between Knowledge and Understanding!!!

 

[Turgon]

Thanks for posting this session Laura and the SOTT Team. The background situation is something that can definitely be helpful in the future if situations similar arise. I can see why it was so difficult posting everything involved in it though. There is so much to consider, especially if you are truly being considerate to Bob, Sue and baby for posting it. But I think yes, it was externally considerate because there is just so many lessons attached to the situation.

We get to see a firsthand, recent experience with a SOTT/QFS member no doubt, having to deal with the situation of energy vectors, wishful thinking, an inability to properly implement the knowledge and information we have learned here in our daily lives, and not asking an amazing networking/feedback community that is here to help for guidance or insight. (Much thanks to Ailen for posting ISOTM excerpt)

As I was reading through it, I couldn't help but see times when I've acted like Sue or Bob, and how easy it is to 'fall' into programs and manipulation both externally and internally at the drop of a dime. A few misleading decisions where we are not fully aware of our own programs and reasoning can have far-reaching effects in our lives if we aren't vigilant and always alert. My heart goes out to Bob, and I can hardly imagine for Sue being used the she way she is. I hope they can both come to realizations about themselves and do the Work necessary to find a way through this situation, help their baby out and give him the best chance possible in life.


On a side-note, I went out on a first date last night with a girl I met recently. Only to come home and find that our refrigerator broke! And then I find this session has been posted! Coincidence or not, I think it's best I start keeping my eyes and ears a little more open than I have been lately.

 

[Gimpy]

First: Thanks for the session! I found it encouraging and really interesting regarding the brain issues.



Second: Man that was a mess....but the C's are right when they say it could have been a lot worse.



My brother in law went through a really bad few years. He had nothing left when he finally agreed to come live with us. He stayed for about 2 years and rebuilt his life, re trained to a new career, and got back on his own again. We were really proud of him, and wished him well.

Then he went and married a mail order bride from Russia.

He proceeded to let this woman run his life. He was allowed no peace. The minute he came home from work she was all over him with a long list of demands, all in a high pitched little girls tone of voice. I know she doesn't always talk this way, but it wears a person down after a while. Over time and observation, it appeared that she wore several persona's depending on what she wanted: the little girl, the miserable 'fish out of water', and the worst: the grifter. If she didn't get her way, or she didn't think you were going to do what she said, she would fly into a horrible rage and start screaming her head off. We were being caught up in drama after drama with the two of them for quite some time, with no clear reasons forthcoming from either one of them. She never treated my brother in law as a human being. He just put up with her crazy behavior without a word. The last straw for me was when she flew into a rage and screamed some pretty horrible things to my husband because he wouldn't let her push him around. He told her to calm down, and when she kept going, he and his brother brought her back to my house and said "Deal with her, we have to finish what we're doing here." (We were helping them move from a rental house to an apartment across town)

I asked her just what was going on and she refused to speak to me, until finally she said "I was angry. I told them what to do and they would not do it. They are lazy, stupid men."

No little girl lost voice, no emotion,...and I told her then that I wasn't buying her crap anymore, and I had enough of her manipulative game playing. We were done.

She tried to embroil us one more time after that, and I shut her down by saying "Unless you receive decent psychological counseling, I don't want to see you."

We have not heard from either one since then, and neither has anyone else in the family...unless they are wanting money.

My brother in law, for whatever reason I cannot fathom, loves this woman. He thinks she's wonderful, clever, and smart. He's cut off all contact from his extended family, because he's just too busy being run around by her. It appears that this is what he wants, so I've stepped back and stayed out of it. My husband is so dismayed, disgusted, and heartbroken over it all that he's told me a time or two that he feels as if his brother has died. I've asked if he wants to call his brother to see how he is, and so far the answer has been no.

At one time I would have tried to understand her, or find her help, or try to fix her (God forbid!). Or I would have kept trying to build a relationship, because she is "family". Having read the main 5 books and built up a lifetime of dealing with people like this woman, I've finally learned to step back once its clear whats going on, and say "Nope. We're done." I think this kind of vectoring is going to show up more often in our lives, the more people learn about EE and the Fellowship, and I wanted to share that I understand what you went through. :(

We didn't have near as much high strangeness, but what we did have was enough. ;D

 

[rrraven]

(Belibaste) I wanted to ask about this psychopathic thing in the lowlands. I wanted to know in what year that the lowlands got the higher percentage of psychopathy, and what was this percentage?

A: 18 century 9 percent

from wikipedia
The Dutch East India Company (Vereenigde Oost-Indische Compagnie or VOC in Dutch, literally "United East Indian Company") was a chartered company established in 1602, when the States-General of the Netherlands granted it a 21-year monopoly to carry out colonial activities in Asia. It was the first multinational corporation in the world and the first company to issue stock.[1] It was also arguably the world's first megacorporation, possessing quasi-governmental powers, including the ability to wage war, negotiate treaties, coin money, and establish colonies.[2]

Statistically, the VOC eclipsed all of its rivals in the Asia trade. Between 1602 and 1796 the VOC sent almost a million Europeans to work in the Asia trade on 4,785 ships, and netted for their efforts more than 2.5 million tons of Asian trade goods. By contrast, the rest of Europe combined sent only 882,412 people from 1500 to 1795, and the fleet of the English (later British) East India Company, the VOC’s nearest competitor, was a distant second to its total traffic with 2,690 ships and a mere one-fifth the tonnage of goods carried by the VOC. The VOC enjoyed huge profits from its spice monopoly through most of the 1600s. [3]

The Dutch East India Company remained an important trading concern for almost two centuries, paying an 18% annual dividend for almost 200 years. In its declining years in the late 18th century it was referred to as Vergaan Onder Corruptie (referring to the acronym VOC) which translates as 'Perished By Corruption'. The VOC became bankrupt and was formally dissolved in 1800,[4] its possessions and the debt being taken over by the government of the Dutch Batavian Republic. The VOC's territories became the Dutch East Indies and were expanded over the course of the 19th century to include the whole of the Indonesian archipelago, and in the 20th century would form Indonesia

megacorporation,
multinational
quasi-governmental powers?
became bankrupt ..
debt being taken over by the government


now where have i heard this before???

 

[pete02]

Thanks for posting this session Laura, as difficult as it was. Many thanks to the chateau crew as well. I was sorry to hear you all came down with that bug and hope your all feeling much better by now. Its also kinda scary to know they could get someone like that right under your own roof as well!

My heart does go out to Bob, Sue and the baby for the situation they are in. These are very unfortunate circumstances for them however it is a lesson to us all indeed. One which I find myself thinking about quite often. Ever since I started down this road I too have had times were I deeply miss having a companion and have thought about dating again but I made myself a promise. I told myself I wouldn't get involved again unless she was on the same path or at least a similar one which involves making a better person of herself, then at least we could grow together. After doing the reading on such things I just couldn't jump right into what might be another meaningless relationship and I always do consider possibly meeting someone who might take me off my path, so I abstain and will remain that way until she comes along or maybe never does. I am prepared for both outcomes.

Funny thing is, I almost did make another mistake because of joining FB! Quick rundown, It suggested my ex as a friend to add and being that we still sometimes chat, I thought it couldn't hurt. Well after chatting some more we almost jumped right back into things again even tho I know this would have been a mistake because this relationship was never anything but draining to me. Physically, mentally and financially draining and I would start to recover each time we broke up. However loneliness had gotten the better of me and we decided to make plans. The first week we made plans it snowed, the second week she was sick and the third week she was still recovering so we never ended up getting together and now I can see it was for the best. I can feel for Bob being alone as he must have been and I can understand dating but what would have ever possessed him to have a child is beyond me. Even if I do get involved, I'm not quite sure a baby would be in the plans but whos to say. Thats just the way I feel right now. Thanks to all once again and I wish Bob and his family the best.

 

[Iron]

What a sinister history... the saddest part for me is that the true terror of the consortium is so inthinkable, so beyond common reasoning, that for the normal man stories like this are impossible. So the consortium keeps on terrorizing. Reminds me of that old saying that the greatest trick of the devil was to convince man that he does not exist.

Thanks for the session Laura and the Chateau crew!

On a lighter topic... I sure would like to manifest a healthy pizza covered in provolone :) !

 

[dugdeep]

Thanks for the session, all! I realize this was difficult for everyone involved, but I echo many of the sentiments here in saying that I think posting it was the right thing to do.

On a different note, I actually had to do pipe breathing part way through reading this session, I was so on edge. Even though I read it hours ago, I still feel anxious about the implications of the session.

Interestingly, my reading was interrupted twice by frantic emotional people - once via email from my editor who was fretting over some critical internal email she received and a second time via a phone call from my brother in a very harried state over a family interaction he had actually misperceived. I found it strange that I got two sudden contacts out of nowhere from people who seemed to be reflecting my own internal state while reading.

As others have said, this session has me assessing my own relationships, looking for blind spots.

 

[Nathan]

(Perceval) What's the percentage of clinical psychopaths in the whole world?

A: 6.5

Q: (Perceval) How many of those are female?

A: 1.7

Q: (Ark) But the females are more dangerous.

A: Yes.

Q: (L) So, now wait a minute, was that 1.7 of the 6.5?

A: No.

Q: (L) So, that's 1.7 IN the 6.5?

A: Yes.

I'm confused by the use of the words "of" and "IN", as they have the same meaning to me.

Just to clarify, are the Cs talking about 1.7% female psychopaths inside the 6.5% of psychopaths?

Based on the United States Census Bureau, the human population on Earth is 6,805,200,000.
Estimated female psychopaths: 7519746 0.1105%
Estimated male psychopaths: 434818254 6.3895%

 

[shijing]

Just to clarify, are the Cs talking about 1.7% female psychopaths inside the 6.5% of psychopaths?

That was my understanding -- so 4.8% males plus 1.7% females = 6.5% total.