Session 22 February 2010

[Tigersoap]

I re-read the whole thing again and it's indeed very disturbing.

I am still struggling to digest the whole story and the reaction of Bob & Sue, especially with their child's health and development at stake.
It's not only sad but infuriating at the same time somehow.

You all get a good rest after that.

 

[Windmill knight]

This has been worse than a Greek tragedy. I'm quite disheartened for Bob, Sue and the baby. It has been truly sad for all of us.

Yes, it's totally depressing. The episode at the chateau was bad enough for everyone involved: the bug, Laura's fall, the lack of consideration, etc. But what I think is worse is that souls that could otherwise be healhty and free can so easily be used and manipulated by the 'dark side' and have their lives and spiritual development totally ruined. Pawns on a chessboard for the Consortium, and there is nothing that can be done about it.

i just wanted to point out to anyone who is single and feeling unhappy about it or the need to 'do' something about it:
there is probably a reason why society at large places so much importance on being in a relationship/getting married/hooking up with someone!
think about it! you get bombarded with it almost non-stop (even worse for women)!
or the look you sometimes get when you tell people you aren't in a relationship!

it's the perfect vehicle to inject chaos into people's lives.

and also consider how much of your desire to 'find someone' is purely motivated by STS thinking.

if you're 'meant' to find your soulmate or love of your life, i'm pretty sure he/she will show up without you having to prostitute yourself on dating websites or going 'on the prowl' in local clubs.

Yes, it's a jungle out there. This is a little depressing too, although not entirely hopeless, as there are some genuine couples who are evidence that it is possible. At this point I think the two conditions for a real and healthy relationship are:

- The motivation should be to help the other person become a better human being; to see them grow spiritually because you appreciate so much their inner beauty that you want to be there to care for and protect it. If it is about feeling better yourself or covering your own needs, then it isn't love.
- You can only truly give that which comes natural to you; that which is part of your essence. It follows that if you are truly committed to a path, you can only give to someone who sincerely loves and appreciates that path. Otherwise it's a violation of free will, either yours or the other's.

The fact is that not many of us have learned well enough how to put the well being of others before ours to make a relationship work; and that there are not many people out there on the same or very similar paths. So it is a tall order, but not impossible for a universe of unlimited possibilities. And in any case, there is nothing wrong with being single! Like you say Iconoclast, we have been programmed to think there is.

That's how I see things at the moment, though I may be wrong, of course.

 

[Mrs. Peel]

Sue and I will not be continuing with the group. We feel that you
don't have a clear picture of who Sue really is and because of that
you haven't shown her much respect. [..] We are also highly disturbed by yours and others comments about Johnny. We understand that you think you have our best interests at heart, but it isn’t working. [..]Please unsubscribe us from the lists.

Even though on some level I was prepared for this, this quote from them still made my heart drop into an abyss. And it actually also makes me angry, for two reasons.

First, it amazes me how much they took, and also took for granted, all this time that they have been here. The sheer amount of time and energy that Laura and the network have spent talking to them, and not just on this occasion. Supporting them (including throughout Sue's pregnancy), helping them solve their issues, bending over backwards to accommodate them in every possible way (inviting them to visit with a baby, dealing with their issues gently off-list, etc). To say that they "have not been shown respect" really takes some nerve.

I second everything that Hildegarda has said. I cannot imagine how a man with Bob's supposed intelligence can act so blindly. My guess is by now he is probably just a robot, performing whatever actions Sue programs into him. He did ask Laura to ask the C's about the baby, then totally disregarded the entire session. Notice he didn't mention anything about the C's comments, only what people related in the intro. Like he won't even go there, he is just focusing on how dare you say such things about out child!

Probably comtemplating the actual session would make his head explode.

I've said it before, Laura and the Chateau crew are really saints to put up with all they do, Divine Cosmic Mind, bless them all.

 

[truth seeker]

Well the eternal optimist in me thinks he may be back at some point. Some truths can stay hidden longer than others. This isn't one of them. If the "Johnny" turns out to be autistic and not high functioning, they won't be able to ignore this information past another year and a half/ two years. At that point, he'll have to be enrolled in school and the difference between him and the other children won't be able to be denied.

Perhaps then, "Bob" will be more able to see that what was said to him was done so out of concern and not out of meanness.

 

[Chu]

Well the eternal optimist in me thinks he may be back at some point. Some truths can stay hidden longer than others. This isn't one of them. If the "Johnny" turns out to be autistic and not high functioning, they won't be able to ignore this information past another year and a half/ two years. At that point, he'll have to be enrolled in school and the difference between him and the other children won't be able to be denied.

Perhaps then, "Bob" will be more able to see that what was said to him was done so out of concern and not out of meanness.

Yes, we never know. There is still that possibility one day, but somehow I think that it is simply too much for him to handle. Hopefully not. It is totally sad that neither of them could go there... Or perhaps it is sort of a blessing for those who make this type of decision to lose their ability to think clearly or feel anymore. The reality of it all is extremely hard to take.

 

[Laura]

I looked at a couple of videos of "crab crawling" babies on youtube and none of them seemed to do it exactly the way Johnny does it. Bob excused it as something that the child chose to do because he could then use his free hand to carry something. But that's not what he was doing here. And the videos show babies with that hand in the air not carrying anything.

Then, there are some videos of normal babies that did some crab crawling now and again, but that is totally different from what Johnny did.

Anyway, there is this article about it that I sent to them, which they blew off:

Is your baby autistic? UF researchers' book helps provide answers
YOUR HEALTH
July 08, 2008|By Linda Shrieves, Sentinel Staff Writer

For years, the parents of some autistic children have said they knew from shortly after their babies were born that there was something different about them.

Now two researchers at the University of Florida, who have spent more than a decade studying the movements of autistic babies, say they often learn to crawl and walk differently than normal babies.

Parents of autistic kids often must wait until their children are talking for an official diagnosis of autism. But Osnat and Philip Teitelbaum believe that watching a child's movement could serve as an early-warning system -- so parents can get intervention and therapy for their children at earlier ages.

To help parents learn what to look for, the Teitelbaums have written a book, Does Your Baby have Autism?

"We break it down into very simple movement patterns," says Osnat Teitelbaum, who teaches movement analysis at UF. "The idea behind the book is to give a tool to parents."

For the Teitelbaums, it's been a 15-year journey that began with a lecture that Philip, a professor who specializes in physiological psychology, attended.

The lecturer compared the walk of autistic schoolchildren to the gait of Parkinson's patients. Teitelbaum speculated that autistic children walked differently and crawled differently even as toddlers.

It was a theory that led Osnat to spend five years and thousands of hours reviewing home videos taken by the parents of children who had later been diagnosed as autistic.

One by one, she watched the videos of birthday parties and Christmas celebrations and cataloged the babies' movements, using a method she had learned as a researcher in Israel. Even more valuable were lengthy home videos. "Some of the families did a fantastic job," she said. "The mother would open the camera and let it run. It was a daily diary" of a child's development.

Osnat and Philip Teitelbaum discovered some unmistakable patterns among autistic children. "I compare it to music," says Philip Teitelbaum. "After you get so many scores, you look at them and you see this pattern happens here and here and here."

For instance, one of the most common crawling patterns among autistic children is what the Teitelbaums call "asymmetrical crawling," in which the baby crawls with one leg in the crawling position and other leg in the walking position. The baby can crab around the room fine, but one side of the body isn't doing what the other side is.

That's exactly how it appeared: that Johnny's brain did not know what both sides of his body was doing, or could not coordinate it. That, along with his noticable eye asymmetry, was a concern.

He did respond almost normally to his parents a time or two, but mostly not. Mostly he wanted to nurse, to watch youtube videos, or get carried around with headphone on. I guess that is the equivalent of sitting alone by yourself and staring into space as many autistics do.

Here's another article about "How to recognize the signs of autism" in an infant.
http://www.ehow.com/how_5058163_recognize-signs-autism-infants.html It says:

It is important for parents to be aware of the first signs of autism in infants. ... Early intervention is important to the success of the various treatments for children with autism. That's why it's best if parents can notice the signs of autism in infants.

One: Observe the baby's interaction with others. By the time they are six months old, most babies make eye contact with their parents, point at objects, exchange smiles with their parents, start babbling, and making happy facial expressions. The absence of one or two of these milestones doesn't necessarily mean a baby has autism. But a baby who is uninterested in human contact, and is more interested in inanimate objects should be screened for autism.

Two: Look for signs of repetitiveness. This is one of the most recognized signs of autism in toddlers and babies. Babies with autism often develop a strong attachment to patterns. They want to do things a certain way. If this doesn't happen, they may become extremely agitated. They may also have repetitive body movements. For example, they may constantly rock their bodies or flap their arms. They may have an obsessive to a certain routine.

Three: Be aware of any signs of regression. Some parents report that their autistic children did not show any signs autism as babies. Instead they started to regress at around the age of three. So in some cases, autism in toddlers and babies can first appear when a child starts losing the ability to pronounce certain words. Some children stop speaking altogether and withdraw completely into themselves.

Four: Pay attention to any sensitivities to the five senses. Some babies with autism don't like to be touched. In other cases, they may be extremely sensitive to sounds such as sirens, or they may have an emotional meltdown if they see certain colors, or they may become upset when they are around certain smells.

Five: Notice any signs of a lack of emotional control. Children with autism often have a hard time controlling their emotions. This is different from the tantrums that are common among babies and children, because the traditional methods that parents use to curb the tantrums often don't work with toddlers with autism. Sometimes, they may even burst into uncontrollable laughter for no apparent reason.

Here's another:

Researchers Find First Signs of Autism Even in Infancy

Show the average 14-month-old baby a sealed jar of cookies, and you get some pretty predictable behavior. The child will reach for the treats and, when thwarted, look beseechingly at the nearest adult. The request for help — delivered with eye contact, gestures and often with pleading sounds — is unmistakable. But some babies don't do it. One little boy, captured on video by psychologist Wendy Stone at Vanderbilt University, repeatedly places a researcher's hand on the cookie jar but never once looks at her face to see why she isn't responding. Eventually, tragically, he gives up.

Show the average 18-month-old a video of toddlers at play, and you can bet that the tot will be mesmerized by scenes with strong emotion: a fight or kiss. But some babies have other interests. At the Yale Child Study Center, psychologists Warren Jones, Ami Klin and Sarah Shultz measure when toddlers stop blinking — a reliable indicator of rapt attention. The typical child will stare at the scene of a kiss, but a child with autism will be transfixed by the opening and closing of a door.

Experiments like these, presented at a recent conference at Columbia University's Teachers College, are helping researchers identify the signs of autism at ever earlier ages. For parents, says Stone, director of Vanderbilt's Treatment and Research Institute for Autism Spectrum Disorders, "the average age of first concern is 17 months, though a diagnosis isn't typically made until age 3. That's a long time to be concerned and not know what to do."

In 2007, the American Academy of Pediatrics recommended that doctors begin screening babies for autism at 18 months, but researchers have yet to refine the tools for making a reliable diagnosis at that age. One issue, says Catherine Lord, director of the University of Michigan Autism & Communication Disorders Center, is that there is so much individual variability in how babies develop. Another challenge is that many of the signature signs of autism — delayed speech, repetitive movements or fixations on particular toys or objects — involve language and motor skills that babies have not yet acquired. That's why identifying the signs of autism before age 2 often involves the absence of typical behavior as opposed to the presence of aberrations.

Among the telltale signs of trouble at 12 months: not responding to one's name; not sharing interests through pointing and eye gaze; lack of joyful expression; an absence of babbling; difficulty establishing eye contact; and staring too long at inanimate objects. Investigators have identified these red-flag signs of autism by looking at early home videos of children who were diagnosed at age 3 or later and by studying the younger siblings of children with autism, who have relatively high rates — perhaps 15% — of the disorder. But no single behavior is indicative, and researchers believe that rather than being given a definitive diagnosis, tots with several of these behaviors should be identified as "at risk" and referred to early-intervention programs. (See pictures of a school for autistic children.)

Research strongly suggests that early intervention is key to improving outcomes for at-risk children. And by identifying these children at younger ages, scientists can better determine which aspects of autism are hardwired and which are the secondary results of living with the disability. There is also growing support in the autism-research community for the view that a significant number of children who are at risk could be protected from becoming fully autistic if they are assisted early enough and given the optimal intervention.

"The environment in the early years has an active role in shaping the brain," says Geraldine Dawson, a leading autism researcher and the chief scientific officer of the advocacy group Autism Speaks. "What we see in autism may be partly the result of not engaging with the social environment. So if you engage the baby through an intervention, you might prevent or at least reduce the development of autism symptoms." (See more about autism.)

Thus, the child who is not taking part in the typical parent-child dance — exchanging smiles and glances, pointing at something of interest, seeking attention — is missing out on a lot of learning and failing to lay the foundations for more complex social behavior. Rather than become experts on social cues, as most humans are wired to do, these children, observes Klin, tend to focus on the physical world — the opening and closing of doors and the properties of inanimate objects.

Several studies from across the country are looking at how to draw at-risk infants into the social world so that they will develop more normally. One National Institutes of Health–funded study, at the University of Washington, begins intervention for at-risk babies at 8 months, says Dawson, who adds, "What we are doing is teaching the parents how to structure interactions to promote eye contact and babbling." Parents learn, for example, to engage their babies in settings where there are few distractions so that facial expressions and language are more salient. They also learn strategies to calm infants who tend to become agitated and stressed by social activity. The intervention is playful in spirit, says Dawson, adding, "Parents get very confident and are able to learn this quickly." The hope, she says, is that for some significant portion of children at risk, "we can begin before the full autism syndrome is present and prevent it from emerging."

This:

Early Signs of Autism Identified in Infants Findings Could Lead to More Effective Treatment

April 29, 2005 -- Canadian researchers say they can recognize the early signs of autism in children as young as 6 months old, and they hope their findings will lead to better early treatments for the disorder.

In their ongoing study that now includes autism centers across 14 cities in Canada and the U.S., the researchers are following the progression of younger siblings of children with autism.

According to the National Alliance for Autism Research, a child born into a family in which an older child has been diagnosed with autism is 50 times more likely to develop the disorder than a child with no afflicted siblings.

In this study, researchers show that by age 1, siblings who are later diagnosed with autism may be distinguished from other siblings by early developmental behaviors.

"This is groundbreaking work that is pushing the frontier of what we know about the biological nature of autism, and why it emerges so early in life," says researcher Lonnie Zwaigenbaum, MD, of Ontario's McMaster University. "Our hope is that it will lead to the development of new and earlier treatments that could make a huge difference for these children."
High-Risk Kids Followed From Birth

Autism is typically diagnosed in children around the age of 2 or 3 years, but parents often have concerns about developmental delays much earlier. There is strong evidence that autism has its origin in abnormal brain development early in prenatal life, write the authors.

In an effort to better understand the early signs of autism, Zwaigenbaum and colleagues have been observing more than 200 younger siblings of children with autism, many of whom have been followed from birth.

They developed a 16-point observational checklist called the Autism Observational Scale designed to map the development of infants as young as 6 months.

Specific markers include making infrequent eye contact, not smiling in response to smiles from others, and, in older children, exhibiting delayed language skills.

Even as early as 6 months of age, the researchers found that certain behaviors tended to distinguish siblings later diagnosed with autism from siblings who developed normally. These behaviors included passivity and a decreased activity level at 6 months of age, followed by extreme irritability, a tendency to fixate on objects, reduced social interaction, and lack of facial expression.

At 1 year, these same children also tended to have difficulty with language and communication, and they used fewer gestures.

Zwaigenbaum noted that almost all of the children in the study who were diagnosed with autism by age 24 months had seven or more of these markers by the time they were a year old.

The findings are reported in the latest issue of the International Journal of Developmental Neuroscience.

While the checklist may be useful for recognizing signs of autism in very high-risk children like the ones in the study, its relevance as an observational tool for other children is not yet known.

"Many of these behaviors are pretty common in early development, so they are not necessarily a cause for concern," Zwaigenbaum tells WebMD. "The next step is to take this experience working with high-risk infants out to the general community to see if these observations have meaning."

In the meantime, the findings may immediately lead to an earlier suspicion of autism and possibly earlier intervention in children at high risk.

"The message is that we need to start working with these kids as early as possible instead of telling families that they should wait and see what happens," Zwaigenbaum says.

Autism expert Andy Shih, PhD, tells WebMD that it is increasingly clear that early intervention can make a big difference in the outcome of children with autism. Shih is chief science officer for the National Alliance for Autism Research.

"The evidence suggests that early behavioral interventions can actually translate into better prognosis for these children," he says. "I foresee this research having a tremendous impact on the diagnosis and care of children with autism. The ability to provide even earlier interventions would have a tremendous impact on the quality of life of many children out there and their families."

And:

Is Your Infant or Toddler Showing Any of These Autism Warning Signs?

Autism is a disease shrouded in mystery as the actual cause is unknown, which of course is a huge concern for many new parents. Children as young as 2 months have developed noticeable signs of the disease; these
symptoms are most often noticed by the age of 4-5, but do occur as early as 2 months. Although there is no cure for autism, if diagnosed early there are treatment options. If you ignore the symptoms you will have a real problem on your hands down the road as the child has trouble interacting with others, frustration, and developmental problems. The signs presented in this article are what you should look for in your child from birth to four years of age; however even with these symptoms the child may not be autistic, but should be checked out by a doctor.

Conversation and speech

Children with autism even young developing children most commonly show symptoms of having trouble with conversation, or in toddler's speech development. Babies even at a young age will attempt to converse with you and others; even if they cannot speak they will either attempt it, or try to socialize. Even if it seems like an odd thing to get checked out, if you notice that your child does not respond well to you, others, or is having trouble speaking at a young age then you should get them checked out. Some children develop later, but with autism it is better to be safe than wishing you got the child checked out earlier.

Trouble socializing

The biggest warning sign to look for in toddlers and young children is their innate ability to avoid social contact even with parents. Trouble socializing is most easily seen as the child develops with other children of the same age; however infants through young children should be social with their parents or care givers. A common symptom that parents notice with autistic toddlers is that they will reject affection from the parent and give none in return. This may seem like a development issue at first, but if noticed should be seen by a medical doctor as early as possible.

Young children may not have a large vocabulary, but you can tell when something is "off" by the way they speak. You will notice in young children and toddlers they will exhibit odd behavior
when playing with toys and when speaking. Both verbal and physical aspects will be noticeably different than other kids of the same age; however sometimes young children do not show symptoms of autism until around their second birthday. Children with autism will appear to be in their own world, often talking to themselves. Even young infants and toddlers will exhibit this behavioral trait associated with autism. Young children with autism almost always have trouble doing many of the same things a child similar to the child can do, such as toilet training and talking.

Physical appearance

Children with autism has a tendency of wandering with their eyes, as well has using odd hand gestures. The children may also rock back and forth in a manner that does not appear normal. Even if the child is young if they appear to be "off" with their physical development then they should be checked out immediately.

Overall

Overall you should be mindful of these symptoms even with young toddlers and infants as young as two-three months. Children with autism are often very gifted, and are in fact incredibly smart. Parents worry about their children having autism, but with the right program and an early diagnosis they can live a normal and very productive life.

 

[Adaryn]

Well the eternal optimist in me thinks he may be back at some point. Some truths can stay hidden longer than others. This isn't one of them. If the "Johnny" turns out to be autistic and not high functioning, they won't be able to ignore this information past another year and a half/ two years. At that point, he'll have to be enrolled in school and the difference between him and the other children won't be able to be denied.

I also tend to want to be optimistic here -- might be because the thought of someone litterally losing their soul due to lack of application of knowledge/understanding and networking, coupled with manipulations of STS playing with somebody's real wounds of the soul, seems just unbearable.
Even if Bob can't see now, he might be able to see at some point, and come back and really Ask. It's never too late, OSIT. At least, I hope it will turn out for the best for all involved.

 

[Laura]

I also tend to want to be optimistic here -- might be because the thought of someone litterally losing their soul due to lack of application of knowledge/understanding and networking, coupled with manipulations of STS playing with somebody's real wounds of the soul, seems just unbearable.
Even if Bob can't see now, he might be able to see at some point, and come back and really Ask. It's never too late, OSIT. At least, I hope it will turn out for the best for all involved.

I'm not so optimistic mainly because we don't have the kind of time available for him to "get it." I also doubt that there will be much of him left when she is done.

The whole thing, once again, played out exactly as Gurdjieff described it:

Only two people dropped off who, exactly as though through some kind of magic as it seemed to us, suddenly ceased to understand anything and saw in everything that G. said misunderstanding on his part, and, on the part of the rest, a lack of, sympathy and feeling.

This attitude, at first mistrustful and suspicious and then openly hostile to almost all of us, coming from nobody knew where and full of strange and quite unexpected accusations, astonished us very much.

"We made everything a secret"; we failed to tell them what G. had spoken of in their absence. We told tales about them to G., trying to make him distrust them. We recounted to him all talks with them, leading him constantly into error by distorting all the facts and striving to present everything in a false light. We had given G. wrong impressions about them, making him see everything far from as it was.

At the same time G. himself had "completely changed," had become altogether different from what he used to be before, had become harsh, requiring, had lost all feeling and all interest for individual people, had ceased to demand the truth from people; that he preferred to have round him people such as were afraid to tell him the truth, who were hypocrites, who threw flowers at one another and at the same time spied on the others.

We were amazed at all these and similar talks. They brought with them immediately a kind of entirely new atmosphere which up to this time we had not had. And it was particularly strange because precisely at this time most of us were in a very emotional state and were particularly well disposed towards these two protesting members of our group.

We tried many times to talk to G. about them. He laughed very much when we told him that in their opinion we always gave him "wrong impressions" of them.

"How they value the work," he said, "and what a miserable idiot I am from their point of view; how easily I am deceived! You see that they have ceased to understand the most important thing. In the work the teacher of the work cannot be deceived. This is a law which proceeds from what has been said about knowledge and being. I may deceive you if I want to. But you cannot deceive me. If it were otherwise you would not learn from me and I would have to learn from you."

"How must we speak to them and how can we help them to come back to the group?" some of us asked G.

"Not only can you do nothing," G. said to them, "but you ought not to try because by such attempts you will destroy the last chance they have of understanding and seeing themselves. It is always very difficult to come back. And it must be an absolutely voluntary decision without any sort of persuasion or constraint. You should understand that everything you have heard about me and yourselves are attempts at self-justification, endeavors to blame others in order to feel that they are in the right. It means more and more lying. It must be destroyed and it can only be destroyed through suffering. If it was difficult for them to see themselves before, it will be ten times more difficult now."

"How could this have happened?" others asked him. "Why did their attitude towards all of us and towards you change so abruptly and unexpectedly?"

"It is the first case for you," said G., "and therefore it appears strange to you, but later on you will see that it happens very often and you will see that it always takes place in the same way. The principal reason for it is that it is impossible to sit between two stools. And people usually think that they can sit between two stools, that is, that they can acquire the new and preserve the old; they do not think this consciously of course but it comes to the same thing.

"And what is it that they most of all desire to preserve? First the right to have their own valuation of ideas and of people, that is, that which is more harmful for them than anything else. They are fools and they already know it, that is to say, they realized it at one time. For this reason they came to learn. But they forget all about this the next moment; they are already bringing into the work their own paltry and subjective attitude; they begin to pass judgment on me and on everyone else as though they were able to pass judgment on anything. And this is immediately reflected in their attitude towards the ideas and towards what I say. Already 'they accept one thing' and 'they do not accept another thing'; with one thing they agree, with another they disagree; they trust me in one thing, in another thing they do not trust me.

"And the most amusing part is that they imagine they are able 'to work' under such conditions, that is, without trusting me in everything and without accepting everything. In actual fact this is absolutely impossible. By not accepting something or mistrusting something they immediately invent something of their own in its place. 'Gagging' begins —new theories and new explanations which have nothing in common either with the work or with what I have said.

"Then they begin to find faults and inaccuracies in everything that I say or do and in everything that others say or do. From this moment I now begin to speak of things about which I have no knowledge and even of things of which I have no conception, but which they know and understand much better than I do; all the other members of the group are fools, idiots. And so on, and so on, like a barrel organ.

"When a man says something on these lines I already know all he will say later on. And you also will know by the consequences. And it is amusing that people can see this in relation to others. But when they themselves do crazy things they at once cease to see it in relation to themselves. This is a law. It is difficult to climb the hill but very easy to slide down it. They even feel no embarrassment in talking in such a manner either with me or with other people. And chiefly they think that this can be combined with some kind of 'work.' They do not even want to understand that when a man reaches this notch his little song has been sung.

"And note one thing more. They are a pair. If they were separate, each one by himself, it would be easier for them to see their situation and come back. But they are a pair, they are friends, and one supports the other precisely in his weaknesses. Now one cannot return without the other. And even if they wanted to come back, I would just take one of them and not take the other."

"Why?" asked one of those present.

"That is another question entirely," said G., "in the present case simply in order to enable the other to ask himself who is the most important for him, I or his friend. If he is the most important, then there is nothing to talk about, but if I am the most important, then he must leave his friend and come back alone. And then, afterwards, the other may come back. But I tell you that they cling to one another and hinder one another. This is an exact example of how people do the very worst thing they possibly can for themselves when they depart from what is good in them."

 

[Jacques]

I also tend to want to be optimistic here -- might be because the thought of someone litterally losing their soul due to lack of application of knowledge/understanding and networking, coupled with manipulations of STS playing with somebody's real wounds of the soul, seems just unbearable.
Even if Bob can't see now, he might be able to see at some point, and come back and really Ask. It's never too late, OSIT. At least, I hope it will turn out for the best for all involved.

I'm not so optimistic mainly because we don't have the kind of time available for him to "get it." I also doubt that there will be much of him left when she is done.

It is so heartbreaking to see that.

They are so few of us that when one of us is trapped, it is such a loss not only for the person but also for the group.

 

[kenlee]

Notice he didn't mention anything about the C's comments, only what people related in the intro. Like he won't even go there, he is just focusing on how dare you say such things about out child!

Yes this is a very good point, since both Bob and Sue are literally living inside a bubble of denial and as Gurdjieff might say, personality sees only what it wants to see. The false personality of both Bob and Sue is acting like some kind of lightning rod that deflects the terror of the situation from being felt by their essence. There should be real fear felt there, real essence fear, concerning the condition of their baby and also, regarding the state of their own souls, should they not act in favor of their destiny now.

But their fear must be felt to the bone. Instead it’s deflected like the way a lightning rod grounds out a lightning bolt. Or maybe in this case, Sue projected this lightning bolt onto Laura since it’s clear that Sue’s living in a total state of denial and, that which she doesn’t see in herself, she sees “out there.” This includes Bob too. Sue's emotionally charged projections are not recognized by her. She is not conscious of it. Had she been willing to become conscious of her projections then that energy would have returned to the rightful owner, which is herself, and she would have felt something (and most likely Bob too). But she rejects the shock and projects it.

I’ve seen it in many people’s relationships. There is no 'essence touching' there since they want to run unconsciously on programs and lies, living the ”perfect life” in their imaginary shells, all their life. They live in false personality, imaginary people only meeting imaginary people and living their entire lifetime and maybe even lifetimes like this. The terror of the situation is to not act in favor of one's destiny, since things must move, sooner or later, either up or down, depending on the decisions that are made NOW.

 

[Rose]

Thank you for posting this session. It must've been really hard to do. It's disturbing and scary and really sad.

It's hard to understand how someone who's been involved with this network for years, was in QFS and a Sott editor can just give it up so easily just so he can continue to live an illusion. And to see how easily people can be used and manipulated. It's just sickening and heartbreaking!

Hope you guys are feeling better!

 

[Laurentien2]

It seems to me that this was an incredibly difficult session to release to the public. No matter how much I learn about 'the Consortium', their cruelty continues to floor me - it is unfathomable to me. I cannot grasp the limitless capacity for cruelty. Human existence is, by and large, mechanical and we are all subject to manipulations every day in millions of different ways, but or two people, and, then, the baby - what a heartbreaking situation.

Thank you for sharing this session, the lessons are painful, but crucial if we are to navigate these increasingly dangerous waters. We cannot, not one of us, do this alone and networking is our only hope. Without networking, we are lost. I hope Bob and Sue can receive this information in the spirit in which it is offered and that it benefits all.

One phrase from the Cs that I try to remember everyday is, Expect the unexpected. This goes hand in hand with being vigilant and early on, I connected it to self-remembering and doing so, I traveled back to the past to relive every moment of my relation.Self-remembering together with knowledge brought a new and clear picture, what I once believed was no more. The amazing amount of synchronicity observed when I looked back was a shocking and disturbing revelation. Learning of the general law, made me realized that indeed anyone is life can be influenced and diverted from progressing in a specific direction. But how do they do it, I thought. A short time ago I realized that time travel was the probable way, that with it, how easy it is for them (the consortium) to manipulate anyone is past and shape someone is personality for a specific end. I sympathize with Bob and Sue and as precisely stated by Anart there is something decidedly cruel about using 'love' to derail a person. It show us how they feed on our weakness when we live a mechanical existence, how open to attack we are when we have not yet learned what true love is. Yet, I was still in denial before reading yesterday session, how can it be otherwise, how can anyone acknowledge such a monstrous reality. I thing that this is a good example of standing again the unknown and that the lesson as hard as it may be to look at, as given us an amazing amount of knowledge and knowledge protect.

Thank Laura for releasing this session, I do understand the struggle you had to go trough. Take care all of you at the château, stay vigilant and remember to expect the unexpected. To everyone, please realize how important this lesson is, we can't expose Laura and others members to these kind of attack anymore, try to see through your emotion and accept that a spouse or a husband can't be shape into a believer. All we can be is a example and hope that they learn and maybe one day choose to follow it.

 

[Gaby]

I cannot imagine how a man with Bob's supposed intelligence can act so blindly.

Also, what comes to my mind is the case of Orage and how he was lead away from the Work when he feel in "love" with a woman. Orage was very "intelligent," and he even wrote an essay about Love. More background here:

http://www.cassiopaea.org/forum/index.php?topic=8658.msg62077#msg62077

 

[RGG]

Man, what an upsetting situation. knowing the world is pretty much a vile, manipulated hellhole is bad enough, but having it presented in ways so immediate and familiar makes it so much worse. I don't even know Bob or Sue or their baby but my heart breaks for them and their future- what a horrendous time.

I will shed my light on the following in the hopes of adding something constructive that might get back to Bob.
With regards to the following comment:

Well, we did ask with the results you see. And they have both dived into DeNile because it is a lot more than just the dull look in his face, the crab-crawling, etc. As Andromeda mentioned, there was an odd smell to the child that the girls described as like "wet cement" that had gone sour. And this was AFTER he was over being sick. His body had no real tone, either. Like I said, in many ways, he presented as a 7 or 8 month old and that's a big gap for one who measures his life in months.

If they take some actions, they might be able to fix things. Or, they might make things worse. Time will tell a lot of things.

I tell ya, being in this "line of work" is gruelling.

My son had this smell too and I think that it is the result of a candida overgrowth. Unbeknownst to myself, my dedicated effort in breast feeding all three of my children infected them to varying degrees with candida with my latest baby getting the highest doses of all of them. I couldn't figure out why he was constantly having bouts of diarrhea until he ended up with a terrible case of thrush and then I put it all together since I knew I had candida. It has been awful knowing that every time I nurse my baby, I transmit candida to him and that he has been battling this invasion since he was a newborn. The case of thrush was so bad that the acidity in his mouth and body de-mineralized his brand new teeth within a week leaving him with caries that look just like he had "baby bottle mouth" and I've never given him a bottle once. Managing my own candida has been very tricky in this respect as well since if I kill it off too quickly, the toxins released in the die-off get in my breast milk and he gets a rash all around his mouth. And of course every time he smiles his giant cute smile, I can see the caries on his teeth that I've caused indirectly-he'd only had those teeth for a couple of months!!-Not a happy feeling for me when I see this :(.
For managing his candida though, I've introduced one sippy cup per day of slightly alkalized water (a pinch of baking soda, a pinch of potassium salt and a pinch of magnesium citrate) as well as probiotics and this gets rid of that acidic smell completely. I also keep Nystatin on hand just in case because if I'm not extremely vigilant, the thrush will come back in a matter of days. I think the poor guy knows his body is too acidic since he really wants nothing to do with fruit which most babies love.
Anyway, maybe somehow this info will find it's way to Bob so that he can look into it if he chooses.

Shedding light on this darkness is really all that any of us can do in this situation. I hope it helps.

Rx

 

[slowone]

I also tend to want to be optimistic here -- might be because the thought of someone litterally losing their soul due to lack of application of knowledge/understanding and networking, coupled with manipulations of STS playing with somebody's real wounds of the soul, seems just unbearable.
Even if Bob can't see now, he might be able to see at some point, and come back and really Ask. It's never too late, OSIT. At least, I hope it will turn out for the best for all involved.

I'm not so optimistic mainly because we don't have the kind of time available for him to "get it." I also doubt that there will be much of him left when she is done.

The whole thing, once again, played out exactly as Gurdjieff described it:

Only two people dropped off who, exactly as though through some kind of magic as it seemed to us, suddenly ceased to understand anything and saw in everything that G. said misunderstanding on his part, and, on the part of the rest, a lack of, sympathy and feeling.

Already 'they accept one thing' and 'they do not accept another thing'; with one thing they agree, with another they disagree; they trust me in one thing, in another thing they do not trust me.

"And the most amusing part is that they imagine they are able 'to work' under such conditions, that is, without trusting me in everything and without accepting everything. In actual fact this is absolutely impossible. By not accepting something or mistrusting something they immediately invent something of their own in its place. 'Gagging' begins —new theories and new explanations which have nothing in common either with the work or with what I have said.

"Then they begin to find faults and inaccuracies in everything that I say or do and in everything that others say or do. From this moment I now begin to speak of things about which I have no knowledge and even of things of which I have no conception, but which they know and understand much better than I do; all the other members of the group are fools, idiots. And so on, and so on, like a barrel organ.

I was thinking this afternoon How could Bob who obviously thought so much and trusted so much in Laura and everyone involved here not trust Laura and the group on this? And then Laura you post this from Gurdjieff and he says it all, has seen it before.

I find it scary. I was thinking last night could Sue do anything to "overcome" a physical implant even if she wanted to? Could any of us? What if I, or my husband has unbeknown to us programming or implants just waiting to be used against us/the other when the mood takes the PTB?

In a way it is the ultimate sacrifice that Bob made, His fall has highlighted a serious issue that all of us I am sure will be much more wary of. I hoped too that maybe he would return, but reading Laura's last post and Gurdjieffs observations Say's probably no.

But then who knows with the EE and our progress perhaps??