Session 4 April 2015

[cubbex]

By the way people, I have found that Mouravieff wrote a little about the idea of "time", he gives an idea to explain it in chapter X (p.83).

I didn't got Mouravieff before, like, too abstract to understand what he says, specially if you have no basis as the Wave, or some quantum physics and that stuff. Maybe he's into something, my question is if people like Gurdjieff and Mouravieff are capable of understanding the task, and applying it, why they didn't achieve the work? like, the cs' said the work is with Mouravieff I agree, but why if he just gave it to the public, he couldn't achieve this work? what they didn't do or didn't know? apart of the idea of 4th density, what is it when you achieve the end? Mouravieff says we have to achieve the maximum capacity of evolution in man, what does he mean? literally become the best we are or more, as a society.

 

[goyacobol]

By the way people, I have found that Mouravieff wrote a little about the idea of "time", he gives an idea to explain it in chapter X (p.83).

I didn't got Mouravieff before, like, too abstract to understand what he says, specially if you have no basis as the Wave, or some quantum physics and that stuff. Maybe he's into something, my question is if people like Gurdjieff and Mouravieff are capable of understanding the task, and applying it, why they didn't achieve the work? like, the cs' said the work is with Mouravieff I agree, but why if he just gave it to the public, he couldn't achieve this work? what they didn't do or didn't know? apart of the idea of 4th density, what is it when you achieve the end? Mouravieff says we have to achieve the maximum capacity of evolution in man, what does he mean? literally become the best we are or more, as a society.

Prometeo,

I am guessing you are talking about Mouravieff's Gnosis I Chapter X (p.83). You have several questions in one but I will try to share my thoughts on the questions. I too find Mouravieff difficult to understand. As others note he mixes some "biblical gloss" in with his explications.

I don't really know if Gurdjieff and Mouravieff achieved what they had set as their goal. I suspect that they were just doing the best they could do with the "knowledge" they had in their respective eras of "time". I think it is a good question about "what is it when you achieve the end?" or what is your goal in the first place?

Here is a quote from Gnosis I Chapter X:

CHAPTER X​

(1)​

We have established that, in the World created by the play of the three
forces, the Law of Three reflects the three fundamental conditions of
Creation: static, dynamic and equilibrium. We could never stress the
importance of this law enough. Everything that exists in the Universe, in
fact or in potential, exists only by grace of the combined action of these
three forces.
We shall now study the second fundamental law: the Law of Seven. This
law applies neither to the creation nor to the existence of things and
phenomena in space, but to their evolution in Time. It concerns the action
of all types1 of movement on all planes at all the steps2 of Creation.
To understand the Law of Seven better, and to realize its importance, we
must examine another aspect of the problem. We have seen that while he
lives in such a jungle of laws, the only chance man has is to put himself
under the authority of the Law of Exception, an esoteric law which permits
him to escape from the ensemble of 'A' influences whose action in the external
world strikes our inner world directly. As an action, this evasion also falls
under the empire of the Law of Seven.
In accordance with this law, as we shall see in a moment, every action is
subject to one or more changes in direction and as a consequence is in
principle doomed to failure. However, by analyzing the action of the Law
of Seven, we shall grasp the character of these deviations, and their necessity
from the objective point of view. We shall learn how it is possible to
combat these deviations and continue in a constant direction in pursuit of
our goals.

Concerning a goal it looks like Mouravieff may have had "goals" in mind instead of just one goal. Whether he achieved the goal/goals is not clear to me. From his description above he seems to say that part of the goal/goals is to "escape" from the 'A' influences which he relates to the "Law of Seven". There is a (Fig. 31) on page 84 that shows a hexagram with arrows going in a circle around the six sides. At the top and bottom he shows 2 separate arrows exiting the hexagram to a circle labeled "Goal" which I think are the "escape" he is talking about. As a further illustration he has (Fig. 32) that indicates "other" impulses can be added to the picture to change the strength and direction of the arrows.

I think he is not an easily understood writer and it takes a lot of thought to put together the concepts he presents. I find I have to guess what he means even with all his illustrations. He says the "Law of Three" is a "natural" law and the "Law of Seven" is an "artificial" law. Maybe the "artificial" aspect is what allows some to eventually find the "escape" route in Time or from Time.

 

[riclapaz]

By the way people, I have found that Mouravieff wrote a little about the idea of "time", he gives an idea to explain it in chapter X (p.83).

I didn't got Mouravieff before, like, too abstract to understand what he says, specially if you have no basis as the Wave, or some quantum physics and that stuff. Maybe he's into something, my question is if people like Gurdjieff and Mouravieff are capable of understanding the task, and applying it, why they didn't achieve the work? like, the cs' said the work is with Mouravieff I agree, but why if he just gave it to the public, he couldn't achieve this work? what they didn't do or didn't know? apart of the idea of 4th density, what is it when you achieve the end? Mouravieff says we have to achieve the maximum capacity of evolution in man, what does he mean? literally become the best we are or more, as a society.

Prometeo,

I am guessing you are talking about Mouravieff's Gnosis I Chapter X (p.83). You have several questions in one but I will try to share my thoughts on the questions. I too find Mouravieff difficult to understand. As others note he mixes some "biblical gloss" in with his explications.

I don't really know if Gurdjieff and Mouravieff achieved what they had set as their goal. I suspect that they were just doing the best they could do with the "knowledge" they had in their respective eras of "time". I think it is a good question about "what is it when you achieve the end?" or what is your goal in the first place?

Here is a quote from Gnosis I Chapter X:

CHAPTER X​

(1)​

We have established that, in the World created by the play of the three
forces, the Law of Three reflects the three fundamental conditions of
Creation: static, dynamic and equilibrium. We could never stress the
importance of this law enough. Everything that exists in the Universe, in
fact or in potential, exists only by grace of the combined action of these
three forces.
We shall now study the second fundamental law: the Law of Seven. This
law applies neither to the creation nor to the existence of things and
phenomena in space, but to their evolution in Time. It concerns the action
of all types1 of movement on all planes at all the steps2 of Creation.
To understand the Law of Seven better, and to realize its importance, we
must examine another aspect of the problem. We have seen that while he
lives in such a jungle of laws, the only chance man has is to put himself
under the authority of the Law of Exception, an esoteric law which permits
him to escape from the ensemble of 'A' influences whose action in the external
world strikes our inner world directly. As an action, this evasion also falls
under the empire of the Law of Seven.
In accordance with this law, as we shall see in a moment, every action is
subject to one or more changes in direction and as a consequence is in
principle doomed to failure. However, by analyzing the action of the Law
of Seven, we shall grasp the character of these deviations, and their necessity
from the objective point of view. We shall learn how it is possible to
combat these deviations and continue in a constant direction in pursuit of
our goals.

Concerning a goal it looks like Mouravieff may have had "goals" in mind instead of just one goal. Whether he achieved the goal/goals is not clear to me. From his description above he seems to say that part of the goal/goals is to "escape" from the 'A' influences which he relates to the "Law of Seven". There is a (Fig. 31) on page 84 that shows a hexagram with arrows going in a circle around the six sides. At the top and bottom he shows 2 separate arrows exiting the hexagram to a circle labeled "Goal" which I think are the "escape" he is talking about. As a further illustration he has (Fig. 32) that indicates "other" impulses can be added to the picture to change the strength and direction of the arrows.

I think he is not an easily understood writer and it takes a lot of thought to put together the concepts he presents. I find I have to guess what he means even with all his illustrations. He says the "Law of Three" is a "natural" law and the "Law of Seven" is an "artificial" law. Maybe the "artificial" aspect is what allows some to eventually find the "escape" route in Time or from Time.

Very interesting, the idea that turns in my head is that perhaps not Gurdjieff or Mouravieff were teachers? in the context of the fourth way?It could be a piece that lacks, the true master. :/

 

[Puma]

goyacobol...thank you for your time and answers!!!

 

[BHelmet]

By the way people, I have found that Mouravieff wrote a little about the idea of "time", he gives an idea to explain it in chapter X ......

Very interesting, the idea that turns in my head is that perhaps not Gurdjieff or Mouravieff were teachers? in the context of the fourth way?It could be a piece that lacks, the true master. :/

Heh, heh - perhaps if you truly master the work, you are gone! On to the next one; whatever and wherever that may be. OR perhaps it is all just theoretical? We are not in control of ourselves on some greater or lesser level. I am certainly not the one to ask - I am still here and I make errors left and right!

 

[sitting]

perhaps if you truly master the work, you are gone! On to the next one; whatever and wherever that may be. OR perhaps it is all just theoretical?

I believe there ARE existing ways for assessing "true mastery." Although I don't think they qualify as absolute measures.

In forum discussions, within the C's framework, graduation to 4th D (with STO orientation) is our measure. I think for the Illuminati, graduation (with STS orientation) is their measure.

From recent transcripts, it appears that both Caesar and Gurdjieff are presently in 5th, waiting for their next incarnation into 4th. I presume as good guys. But reincarnating nonetheless. Into a physical form (though with variability.)

Here's where Buddhism gets interesting.

They seek no reincarnation. Nirvana being the extinguishing of the flame of rebirth. Here I'll take the liberty of transposing their concepts using our terminology. While they may not say this explicitly, I think success for them means attainment as a thought form. No rebirth means no physicality (variable or otherwise.) Mastery for them (after they die) is to exist purely in the thought realm ... forever. You can even say almost like the C's.

If my interpretation is correct, then their goal (in life) is ambitious in the extreme. It's a skipping of grade--bypassing the 4th D.

It's perhaps for this reason that Buddhist practices are so intensely focused on mind & thought. Giving it a somewhat other worldly character. With seemingly strange concepts of emptiness (or void-ness if you prefer.) I think it appears that way because their goal is so different from ours.

The C's once gave an intriguing hint. I have not been able to locate the remark, but they said yes, yogi's can do IT. I'm however unsure as to what exactly they meant by IT. But I think it was related to something extraordinary--perhaps along these lines.

I hope Goyacobol can help with this.

FWIW.

PS
I'm by no means advocating the Buddhist way. But expanding on their concepts hopefully will shed more light on our own endeavors.

 

[BHelmet]

perhaps if you truly master the work, you are gone! On to the next one; whatever and wherever that may be. OR perhaps it is all just theoretical?

I believe there ARE existing ways for assessing "true mastery." Although I don't think they qualify as absolute measures.

In forum discussions, within the C's framework, graduation to 4th D (with STO orientation) is our measure. I think for the Illuminati, graduation (with STS orientation) is their measure.

From recent transcripts, it appears that both Caesar and Gurdjieff are presently in 5th, waiting for their next incarnation into 4th. I presume as good guys. But reincarnating nonetheless. Into a physical form (though with variability.)

Here's where Buddhism gets interesting.

They seek no reincarnation. Nirvana being the extinguishing of the flame of rebirth. Here I'll take the liberty of transposing their concepts using our terminology. While they may not say this explicitly, I think success for them means attainment as a thought form. No rebirth means no physicality (variable or otherwise.) Mastery for them is to exist purely in the thought realm. You can even say almost like the C's.

If my interpretation is correct, then their goal is ambitious in the extreme. It's a skipping of grade--bypassing the 4th D.

It's perhaps for this reason that Buddhist practices are so intensely focused on mind & thought. Giving it a somewhat other worldly character. With seemingly strange concepts of emptiness (or void-ness if you prefer.) I think it appears that way because their goal is so different from ours.

The C's once gave an intriguing hint. I have not been able to locate the remark, but they said yes, yogi's can do IT. I'm however unsure as to what exactly they meant by IT. But I think it was related to something extraordinary--perhaps along these lines.

As far as assessing: if 4D STO is the validation or realization of 'the work', then that = 'gone' (from here 3DSTS).
As for Caesar and G: they smart. I have had numerous 'dreams' of time-traveling or 'coming back' and having that "OMG, these people are STILL just as backwards as ever!" sinking feeling moment.
As for Buddhism - I am not sure. I get the impression that the original idea has gotten pretty distorted through the ages. But I like your analysis of it.

 

[goyacobol]

perhaps if you truly master the work, you are gone! On to the next one; whatever and wherever that may be. OR perhaps it is all just theoretical?

I believe there ARE existing ways for assessing "true mastery." Although I don't think they qualify as absolute measures.

In forum discussions, within the C's framework, graduation to 4th D (with STO orientation) is our measure. I think for the Illuminati, graduation (with STS orientation) is their measure.

From recent transcripts, it appears that both Caesar and Gurdjieff are presently in 5th, waiting for their next incarnation into 4th. I presume as good guys. But reincarnating nonetheless. Into a physical form (though with variability.)

Here's where Buddhism gets interesting.

They seek no reincarnation. Nirvana being the extinguishing of the flame of rebirth. Here I'll take the liberty of transposing their concepts using our terminology. While they may not say this explicitly, I think success for them means attainment as a thought form. No rebirth means no physicality (variable or otherwise.) Mastery for them (after they die) is to exist purely in the thought realm ... forever. You can even say almost like the C's.

If my interpretation is correct, then their goal (in life) is ambitious in the extreme. It's a skipping of grade--bypassing the 4th D.

It's perhaps for this reason that Buddhist practices are so intensely focused on mind & thought. Giving it a somewhat other worldly character. With seemingly strange concepts of emptiness (or void-ness if you prefer.) I think it appears that way because their goal is so different from ours.

The C's once gave an intriguing hint. I have not been able to locate the remark, but they said yes, yogi's can do IT. I'm however unsure as to what exactly they meant by IT. But I think it was related to something extraordinary--perhaps along these lines.

I hope Goyacobol can help with this.

FWIW.

PS
I'm by no means advocating the Buddhist way. But expanding on their concepts hopefully will shed more light on our own endeavors.

Sitting, Bhelmet, riclapaz,Leonel & Prometeo,

Actually, Sitting, your description of Buddhism and Nirvana and how that may relate to yogis is something that I have wondered about myself. And I think that the reference to how "yogis can do it" relates to the Time element mentioned by Mouravieff.

Here is the only session I could find that mentions that quote:

Session 21 January 1995

Q: (T) I was going to say that doesn't necessarily mean we're in bad shape... (L) Well, the situation we find ourselves in, is the only
way of getting out of this time loop, so to speak, to move into another density, or is there a loop in the other density as well?
A: No.
Q: (L) No loop in the other density?
A: Yogis can do it.
Q: (L) Yogis can do it... (T) Transcend time. (L) Okay, let me ask this before we really start to go...
A: How they control their own physicality.

If I understand the above quote, I think they are saying the "other" density has no "time loop". That is not to say there is no "time" but there is no illusion element to "time" as it is in 3D.

If yogis can "Transcend time" I am not sure what density they are in or perceive (maybe 4D?). I would think "when you graduate from 3rd grade where do you go?" would be 4D. It does make me wonder if the Buddhist goal may not be wishful thinking to skip 4D and go to 5D or 6D where there is no reincarnating. While we contemplate our next step in 5D I guess that would be physicality free existence for awhile. I can sympathize with the thought of not wanting to reincarnate but "all there is is lessons" and I don't think there is any "free lunch" as Laura says. If we were "thought forms" we would be 6D like the Cs.

 

[cubbex]

perhaps if you truly master the work, you are gone! On to the next one; whatever and wherever that may be. OR perhaps it is all just theoretical?

They seek no reincarnation. Nirvana being the extinguishing of the flame of rebirth. Here I'll take the liberty of transposing their concepts using our terminology. While they may not say this explicitly, I think success for them means attainment as a thought form. No rebirth means no physicality (variable or otherwise.) Mastery for them (after they die) is to exist purely in the thought realm ... forever. You can even say almost like the C's.

I like the idea, if I remember correctly in the wave and with michael topper, it is mentioned the apex predator, this guy is so isolated but so capable because of his intellect, that he achieves a 5th density capacity without dying. So I don't know if Buddah was right, but what I think he's correct is in what Mouravieff says about 4th man and the next ones, they become an interior man, that they give importance to the inner state of the being, not only their own being but also other's, their mind and hearts and it's relation to the body. I disagree on not having a body, there is always a reason and one might be the subconscious, for one reason we cannot go to full conscious controll of all that we are, our bodies might help with the job or our connection with it.

I also ask because there is also Fulcanelli, who apparently achieved something. I just ask myself, if Fulcanelli achieved it, what kind of knowledge he might had possesed, or which perspective he took? I remember the cs' said that when you go full STO, you automatically transit to the next density. If this is the case, could it be that Fulcanelli did this? did he go 100% STO? if he did, maybe his biography may give me some clues hehe, his books are too hard. I have also noticed, that every time the cs' mention what STO is or which behaviors fall in category, that these behaviors show not only a very functional social attitude, but also one attitude that protects from so many traps and dangers. Like they said, "judging is STS", so you think "well how many problems are consequence of prejudice and subjective judgements about others?", is like an STO behavior is neutral in a sense but very responsible, aware and super supportive, not for the gains of being supportive, but more from an awareness of the pain, feelings and nature of others. As if the candidate or the STO person does not act based on preference, but on what he/she knows.

If I understand the above quote, I think they are saying the "other" density has no "time loop". That is not to say there is no "time" but there is no illusion element to "time" as it is in 3D.

If yogis can "Transcend time" I am not sure what density they are in or perceive (maybe 4D?). I would think "when you graduate from 3rd grade where do you go?" would be 4D. It does make me wonder if the Buddhist goal may not be wishful thinking to skip 4D and go to 5D or 6D where there is no reincarnating. While we contemplate our next step in 5D I guess that would be physicality free existence for awhile. I can sympathize with the thought of not wanting to reincarnate but "all there is is lessons" and I don't think there is any "free lunch" as Laura says. If we were "thought forms" we would be 6D like the Cs.

Agree fully. They mark a difference between being "unified thought forms" and just "thought forms", maybe some thought forms are those ethereal entities we know as demons, and maybe cs' are unified thought forms because they unified all the little I's or all of their realities into one, and also unified with (I assume) the STO gang.

 

[Ðekel]

This is a great conversation here guys !

I'd like to add something regarding time, if I may;

For those who accept the linear story about time, when they buy into that thought and subscribe to it, they are accepting that linear time should dictate what their body should be doing.

Of course yogis can "do it".. The ones that can aren't fooled by the linear concept anymore, they don't subscribe to it any longer because they've realized that it isn't the only option and they've moved past it.
They've chosen a less linear mode.

Perhaps some of the buddhists monks (and some can control their physicality in very interesting ways..)
are already bi-density, and this is why they set their sights on fifth and ultimately sixth and seventh. They already intuit the next step for them. Obviously, wearing a robe is just that, wearing a robe. It cannot be a marker for individual advancement. Some are further along. And some will "be there" from the beginning.

fwiw

 

[sitting]

Q: (T) I was going to say that doesn't necessarily mean we're in bad shape... (L) Well, the situation we find ourselves in, is the only way of getting out of this time loop, so to speak, to move into another density, or is there a loop in the other density as well?
A: No.
Q: (L) No loop in the other density?
A: Yogis can do it.
Q: (L) Yogis can do it... (T) Transcend time. (L) Okay, let me ask this before we really start to go...
A: How they control their own physicality.

Hi Goyacobol,

Thank you for finding that quote.

I would be more cautious in its interpretation however. My sense is they were responding to Laura's remark, not Terry's. Although time loops were part of the original discussion.

The ability to control one's own physicality (within a 3rd density existence) is no small feat. Just think about it. And the remark left no doubt it's indeed possible. For some Yogis. (This observation alone should put to rest the idea of wishful-thinking-ness of yogic practice.)

There's another hint the C's once made which might relate to this. They gave a precise number (in the few thousands) of those 3rd density lives that successfully made some sort of extraordinary transformation. A few thousand in the course of human history. Clearly not for the many. And if I recall correctly, Laura was depressed by that revelation. The odds being so poor. But that was before the Wave.

(Now a recent comment about a 2nd D cat possibly skipping 3rd and being carried--by group FRV--into 4th may be instructive. And indeed encouraging. Mind expanding too.)

My previous post was in reply to the question of "true mastery." And what that meant. I thought it was different for different people. I still think that's a true statement. And I say again that it's vital for each individual to clearly put in writing (for their own edification) what his/her aim in the Work is. Without that, they may lack the clarity required for their own mastery.

You're not gonna get there--if you don't really know what there means.

I have so far seen 3 responses (from Denis, TP and Archaea.) They are quite diverse points of view--even though they come from the same forum, and within the same general philosophical framework. But all are instructive.

So my dear friend, I extend a heart felt invitation to you--to give it a try. And I eagerly await to see what your aim in the Work is. I think it can be a valuable exercise. FWIW.

Thanks in advance.

 

[sitting]

Q: (T) I was going to say that doesn't necessarily mean we're in bad shape... (L) Well, the situation we find ourselves in, is the only way of getting out of this time loop, so to speak, to move into another density, or is there a loop in the other density as well?
A: No.
Q: (L) No loop in the other density?
A: Yogis can do it.
Q: (L) Yogis can do it... (T) Transcend time. (L) Okay, let me ask this before we really start to go...
A: How they control their own physicality.

You can see by simply changing the highlighting, one gets a strikingly different inference from the C's reply. A confirmation of density shift--without first dying and reincarnating.

That reply was made in 1995.

They've since amplified the thought, bringing it into the time frame of 2014 -- 2015. They said with arrival of Wave, a jump (without dying) from 3rd to 4th is indeed possible ... and maybe for many more. (Not just for Yogis.)

It would be an interesting question to ask if a jump higher is permitted as well ... given the energy environment of hyperkinectic sensate.

FWIW.

 

[goyacobol]

Q: (T) I was going to say that doesn't necessarily mean we're in bad shape... (L) Well, the situation we find ourselves in, is the only way of getting out of this time loop, so to speak, to move into another density, or is there a loop in the other density as well?
A: No.
Q: (L) No loop in the other density?
A: Yogis can do it.
Q: (L) Yogis can do it... (T) Transcend time. (L) Okay, let me ask this before we really start to go...
A: How they control their own physicality.

You can see by simply changing the highlighting, one gets a strikingly different inference from the C's reply. A confirmation of density shift--without first dying and reincarnating.

That reply was made in 1995.

They've since amplified the thought, bringing it into the time frame of 2014 -- 2015. They said with arrival of Wave, a jump (without dying) from 3rd to 4th is indeed possible ... and maybe for many more. (Not just for Yogis.)

It would be an interesting question to ask if a jump higher is permitted as well ... given the energy environment of hyperkinectic sensate.

FWIW.

sitting,

Do you mean "how high can you jump"? :)

I have resigned myself to accepting going to 5D and contemplating the next step but of course as you say going from 3D to 4D may be possible for many. It is good to have your highlighted view. It is a really interesting concept to think about.

Making the "jump" reminds me of this scene from Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid:

http://<iframe width="560" height="...Xw" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

 

[Ðekel]

[..]
I have resigned myself to accepting going to 5D and contemplating the next step but of course as you say going from 3D to 4D may be possible for many.
[..]

goyacobol, what could you contemplate there that you could not contemplate here / now ?

 

[goyacobol]

[..]
I have resigned myself to accepting going to 5D and contemplating the next step but of course as you say going from 3D to 4D may be possible for many.
[..]

goyacobol, what could you contemplate there that you could not contemplate here / now ?

transientP,

I just meant to say most of us probably don't know what all the lessons we need to learn may be. If I am fortunate enough to have learned all my 3D lessons then the next step would be 4D. While living under the veil of 3D we see very dimly. I think at least in 5D you see your past lives clearly. If I have more to learn from 3D then the coming events may prove to be the death of many of us or the completion of our lessons or both.

It's a subject that may seem morose but the Cs do talk about 5D in this session after answering a question about the crash of the Air France plane:

Q: (L) Questions? (J) What caused the destruction of the Air France flight?

A: Cometary explosion of the Tunguska variety though higher and a bit smaller.

Q: (L) Well, that's what we said in the beginning. Around here that's what I was saying, although there were some people who were doubting me, and saying "impossible!" (Ark) No. (L) Yes! (Ark) Improbable. (L) Well you said it was probability zero, and I said it was nonzero. (Ark) Probability that we meet was zero! (An**) Do the authorities know about this and are they trying to cover it up?

A: Some do.

Q: (J) What a way to go... all of a sudden. (L) But I guess if you're going to go out in a blaze of glory, that's the way to do it. (Ar**) It's the quickest way.

A: A ticket to 5D naturally! They chose the exit at some level. The days will come when the dead seem blessed.

Q: (Discussion of grim answer)

A: For some.

Q: (Ar***) Are they talking about in the next 20 years?

A: Less.

Q: (Ar**) Oh god... (Alenl) In the next year?

A: Five.

Q: (Ar**) So what's going to happen in the next five years that's going to be worse?

A: Wait and see!

I am not saying 5D is my next step or for anyone else. It is just one possibility for "some". Since I don't see everything ahead, I just keep the possibility open. I can contemplate many things here and now and this is one that I have given some thought. It is the clear vision of the next step that is necessary if we are to have any input into the process. I suppose we may just have to "wait and see".