Session 9 December 2017

lilies

Dagobah Resident
Artemis said:
T.C. said:
Thank you for sharing the session with us :flowers:

Q: (Artemis) Okay. I have this experience where I have this knowledge where I thought that I could do something, like I had some sort of ability, but I lost it. Do you know what I'm talking about? I can't describe it to you.
Could you elaborate on this at all, Artemis? It's just that it stood out to me personally because I've always wished I could ask the C's an almost identical question.
I would if I could. It's very hard for me to put into words. I had this knowledge - something I just understood I could do, and it all made sense in that very moment, and I thought it was amazing. Almost as soon as it came, it was gone, but I remember knowing that I knew it. Can't get any clearer than that :nuts:
Same here. Its like I live in a shadow reality--> in the negative pole of a parallel universe and the other version of me in the positive parallel universe has the abilities - IQ, math, physics, algebra, academic skills, improved brain chemistry - I sense these frequently that I should-could have, but I don't and that I have to be cursed and ability-lobotomized in this parallel universe so the other me can have very successful life over there. Because we are connected. --this is the idea-- Only way I could make sense of this persistent desperate sensation.

It feels like shouting through thick soundproof plexiglass to my wife in the other room (who can't hear me), who believes I disappeared, but she can't get rid of the persistent vibe / strong intuition that I'm still alive. Its like a realization-barrier.

This is why I'm willing to try that one time psylocibin / ayahuasca use. I don't care about freeing up the garbage as I have been sorting through my garbage all my life, so its no problem. One time, and the effects could be lasting. That might help, maybe.. could be worth trying. Who knows? If one of us could gain something that could help this group, it would be already worth it. Question is where to get this exact mushroom in question - for one use - that has the exact chemical properties that was alluded to.
 

Zar

The Living Force
FOTCM Member
Laura said:
SlavaOn said:
There is a large list of natural stimulants known to men for millenia: Ma Huang (Ephedra spp.), Coffee, Tea (Thea sinesis), Chocolate (Theobroma cacao), Guarana (Ilex spp)., Kola (Cola nitida), Betel (Areca catechu), Khat (Erythroxylum coca). They were cultivated and propagated over the world. No devastations, famines or wars were able to rob the mankind off these plants.

Somehow, soma (as a stimulant) is not on that list. Since there is a plenty of alternatives, Gods would have been able to pick and choose. Why would the hymns were sang ten millenias ago while describing in details the manufacturing process of some stimulant drink? And compared the active element in it to Immortal God? I think it was for a reason. That drink should had had some unique properties that would put it into a category of its own. Is it the same plant as the one called 'The Old Man Becomes a Young Man" by Noah? It could be. I can speculate that the knowledge of the plant would be very restricted, its cultivation would be very protected and only managed by selected few. Thus, in case of a global disaster, the plant could have survived but the knowledge of it may have perished.
Here you are falling into wishful thinking. There are many reasons that hymns would talk about some sort of magical substance that has magical properties because it happens rather often in myths and legends. People do just "make stuff up".
Or they could have been singing about some recreational drug the used to celebrate and get high off of.
 

SlavaOn

Jedi Master
Bluelamp said:
The Vedic name for it is soma and the Avestan name is haoma and ephedra is still known as homa in Iran.
Etimological similarities in the names are not proving much.

Compare the process of ephedrine extraction from Ma Huang (http://www.hoboes.com/pub/Prohibition/Drug%20Information/Miscellaneous/Ephedrine/Ephedrine%20from%20Ma%20Huang/) to the processing described in Rig Vedas:

In soma preparation fresh plants were turned into mush with stones, strained through sieves and fleece and mixed with milk before storing in wooden buckets. None of the juices were discarded.
In ephedrine extraction you can use either fresh or dried plant matter, whereas using dried plants produces stronger extract. Since it is alcohol extraction with ethanol or naphta or even more heavy duty solvents (http://www.ephedra.nu/chemistry_1.html), everything is evaporated and the final product is a dried powder.
 

SlavaOn

Jedi Master
Hearing this, Gilgamesh opened a conduit(!) (to the Apsu)
and attached heavy stones to his feet.
They dragged him down, to the Apsu they pulled him.
Apsu is the Underworld... There is one aspect to the story of Gilgamesh that has not been probed. The special plant, that Utanapishtim told Gilgamesh about, was growing deep underground in a body of water. It is not widely known, as told by the Cs, that the Earth has a plenty of territories underground that are inhabited by the denizens of the deep. I remember reading somewhere that they have longer life spans than people that live on the surface (please, correct me if I am wrong). I wonder, if one can conclude that they are the ones who cultivate and use the above mentioned plants? Hence Utanapishtim's knowledge of their effect and where it could be located?
 

Laura

Administrator
Administrator
Moderator
FOTCM Member
Thinkingfingers said:
Laura said:
SlavaOn said:
There is a large list of natural stimulants known to men for millenia: Ma Huang (Ephedra spp.), Coffee, Tea (Thea sinesis), Chocolate (Theobroma cacao), Guarana (Ilex spp)., Kola (Cola nitida), Betel (Areca catechu), Khat (Erythroxylum coca). They were cultivated and propagated over the world. No devastations, famines or wars were able to rob the mankind off these plants.

Somehow, soma (as a stimulant) is not on that list. Since there is a plenty of alternatives, Gods would have been able to pick and choose. Why would the hymns were sang ten millenias ago while describing in details the manufacturing process of some stimulant drink? And compared the active element in it to Immortal God? I think it was for a reason. That drink should had had some unique properties that would put it into a category of its own. Is it the same plant as the one called 'The Old Man Becomes a Young Man" by Noah? It could be. I can speculate that the knowledge of the plant would be very restricted, its cultivation would be very protected and only managed by selected few. Thus, in case of a global disaster, the plant could have survived but the knowledge of it may have perished.
Here you are falling into wishful thinking. There are many reasons that hymns would talk about some sort of magical substance that has magical properties because it happens rather often in myths and legends. People do just "make stuff up".
Or they could have been singing about some recreational drug the used to celebrate and get high off of.
In this case, that is not the case. There is a fairly extensive literature that tracks and examines ancient texts and this idea of immortality being possible goes way back. Going forward, various ways of achieving it were dreamed up, the plant of immortality being one of them. The interested reader might want to delve into Zoroastrian studies and Enochian studies for some really interesting info and speculations. Also, ancient Babylonian studies are furiously interesting. I believe I mentioned one book elsewhere that is a definitive account of the world's oldest known religion and is entitled "Religion in Ancient Mesopotamia" (Jean Bottéro and Teresa Lavender Fagan). You'll find there the foundational ideas of just about everything you encounter in any other religion or myth or superstition or magical practice.

If you decide to go the direction of Enochian studies, I'm not going to list the books because there are tons of them. I've read a couple dozen already (or more). Vanderkam is pretty reliable and you can jump off from his recommendations and bibliography. Enochian works were, apparently, based on a combination of Zoroastrianism and Mesopotamian ideas. I actually think that the Zoroastrian ideas preserved in Enochian works may have been older that the Mesopotamian ideas; it may be, in fact, that the Mesopotamians got a lot from the Central Asian steppes!

The Northern versions generally talk about a first creation that was perfect and the first human(s) were immortal. The cow was very important in these stories. Then one way or another, everything was destroyed and had to be re-created only now humans were no longer immortal and they yearned for their former estate of perfection. This type of story is generally made up by oppressed peoples who are suffering evils and want to go back to the 'golden age'.

The Southern version is that gods existed and were immortal and created humans to serve them and mortality was an initial condition. Their whole focus was on trying to figure out how to please the gods so that they wouldn't suffer. It has been suggested - with good argument - that this religious perspective was created by elites and thrust upon the masses to keep them in line.

Meanwhile, there is also "Minds and Gods: The Cognitive Foundations of Religion" (Todd Tremlin) counterposed by "Information and the Nature of Reality: From Physics to Metaphysics" (Paul Davies and Niels Henrik Gregersen). The first argues that concepts of gods emerge from the evolutionary nature of the human brain. The second argues that non-material information, the set of all possible universes, had to pre-exist the material universe and that evolution is merely the working out and working toward at least one of those universes. You really ought not to read the first without the antidote of the second here.

In short, there is way, way more to all of this than one might initially suppose. It takes deep and wide research to gather enough data to even formulate a proposition that might probably be true. In the case of the soma/haoma, all of this data is in my head and I gave the shortest answer possible without going into endless "disco ball consciousness" digressions.
 

Al Today

The Living Force
FOTCM Member
Laura said:
[...]
In short, there is way, way more to all of this than one might initially suppose. It takes deep and wide research to gather enough data to even formulate a proposition that might probably be true. In the case of the soma/haoma, all of this data is in my head and I gave the shortest answer possible without going into endless "disco ball consciousness" digressions.
And I thank you for the thoughts...
 

Laura

Administrator
Administrator
Moderator
FOTCM Member
After thinking about it a moment or two, it seems to me that it would be very useful for everyone to read "Minds and Gods: The Cognitive Foundations of Religion" (Todd Tremlin). I could then scan and post the last two articles/papers from "Information and the Nature of Reality: From Physics to Metaphysics" (Paul Davies and Niels Henrik Gregersen) since those are the two that clearest for the average reader and say what needs to be said.

The reason I say this is because it is indeed helpful to understand how the brain/mind works in a strictly structural and mechanical way then one doesn't get all discombobulated imagining that there was really a "plant of immortality" and trying to figure out what it was. The formulation of this idea follows well-understood brain procedures as described in the above book.

I tell ya, if people really understood the full range and type of thought errors they are subject to just by virtue of the nature of their brain, they would be much better equipped to figure things out.
 

munaychasumaq

Dagobah Resident
FOTCM Member
:knitting:
goyacobol said:
Thanks to all for this thought provoking session.

Keeping in mind that "knowledge protects" I think we all need to get busy with the Work. If those who have been here for awhile haven't figured that out by now I don't know what to say. If you are new to the forum or even if you have been here for a long time. There is plenty to catch up on here:

Collingwood's Idea of History & Speculum Mentis


Session 15 August 2009
Q: (A***l) I have a question. They talked about genetics making it so that people can't receive things. Is there something that people
can do that would help change their genetics in some way that would help them become more receptive?
A: You can't change, but you can activate it if it is latent.
Q: (L) In other words, a lot of people have a lot of genetics going on that they aren't using. (Allen) And those genetics can be
activated. (A***l) So how do you activate it?
A: Effort counts for a lot. And effort can lead to knowledge which does what?
Q: (Joe) Protects!
A: For example, the recent issues of brain chemistry: this understanding has come about due to effort and the growth of knowledge!
The result will be activation of additional DNA! Notice how the knowledge is now growing exponentially with networking and
experimentation!
Session 15 August 2009
(L) Not seeing yourself and others clearly...
(Galatea) I've been thinking lately that too much intellect is a bad
thing. Is that true?
A: No
Q: (Galatea) Why not?
A: The brain is your greatest gift if you learn how to use it.
Session 15 August 2009
(L) Well, if you don't ask it, I'll think of one.
(parallel) How can I process or work with the emotions that I feel are underneath, but which sort of get
stored under a certain layer in daily life, and so never get processed?
(L) Never get expressed or processed? Because they're not being expressed, or they have never been
expressed in any way? How can you deal with the emotions that block you, or something like that?
A: Keep in mind that you have dealt with things the same way for so long that there are very deep
tracks in the brain. At the same time, there are circuits that have been little or never used. This must
change!!! Super efforts are needed or you will deteriorate rapidly!
"To be, or not to be, that is the question:" from William Shakespeare's play Hamlet

Session 18 July 2015
Q: (Perceval) So it's basically wasted on a lot of people in a certain
sense.
(Pierre) At least they're not sick.
(Perceval) No, the people who want to fight against the system and
who care about the state of the world and the lies and all that stuff,
they don't have the immunity. But the ones who do have it, they're
not influenced by the waves but they don't care.
(Galatea) So is there positive information we can acquire somehow to
combat the negative information?
A: We have given you the data and clues. Knowledge must be
acquired via efforts so as to make proper connections and pathways
in the brain.
Q: (L) Why is it so important to make connections and pathways in
the brain?
A: That is, quite simply, building your receiver!!!
Or just pop a "soma" pill and everything will be fine.
Or "hard work" which does not mean to leave your work in the office and go to work in the mines-although that possibility is not discarded -means to persist cleaning the garbage in your mind/emotions doing a deep and honest meditation work,using EE,for example,changing your bad habits in your diet,cutting out personal interactions that are toxic and therefore harmful,read a little bit every day the recommended literature,as Laura says,you will see you are a different person in same time.It`s up to you...the red pill or the blue one? :knitting:
 

lilies

Dagobah Resident
Laura said:
After thinking about it a moment or two, it seems to me that it would be very useful for everyone to read "Minds and Gods: The Cognitive Foundations of Religion" (Todd Tremlin). I could then scan and post the last two articles/papers from "Information and the Nature of Reality: From Physics to Metaphysics" (Paul Davies and Niels Henrik Gregersen) since those are the two that clearest for the average reader and say what needs to be said.

The reason I say this is because it is indeed helpful to understand how the brain/mind works in a strictly structural and mechanical way then one doesn't get all discombobulated imagining that there was really a "plant of immortality" and trying to figure out what it was. The formulation of this idea follows well-understood brain procedures as described in the above book.

I tell ya, if people really understood the full range and type of thought errors they are subject to just by virtue of the nature of their brain, they would be much better equipped to figure things out.
This "plant of immortality" could have been the mere realization during a psychedelic-high trip that there is reincarnation for some: Maybe the soma/mushroom user saw the long chain / continuity of her past lives and the reasons why she chose to incarnate in her present life and that her current life is a mere train station during 'the great soul quest'. Definite perspective change regards current physical body could have been referred to as "immortality".

But then there are fabulous tales of 300~500 year old hermits living near the Himalayas on secret plant extracts.. changing jobs/careers every 100 years during their lives interacting with the general average 'mortal' population.
 

Laura

Administrator
Administrator
Moderator
FOTCM Member
lilies said:
Laura said:
After thinking about it a moment or two, it seems to me that it would be very useful for everyone to read "Minds and Gods: The Cognitive Foundations of Religion" (Todd Tremlin). I could then scan and post the last two articles/papers from "Information and the Nature of Reality: From Physics to Metaphysics" (Paul Davies and Niels Henrik Gregersen) since those are the two that clearest for the average reader and say what needs to be said.

The reason I say this is because it is indeed helpful to understand how the brain/mind works in a strictly structural and mechanical way then one doesn't get all discombobulated imagining that there was really a "plant of immortality" and trying to figure out what it was. The formulation of this idea follows well-understood brain procedures as described in the above book.

I tell ya, if people really understood the full range and type of thought errors they are subject to just by virtue of the nature of their brain, they would be much better equipped to figure things out.
This "plant of immortality" could have been the mere realization during a psychedelic-high trip that there is reincarnation for some: Maybe the soma/mushroom user saw the long chain / continuity of her past lives and the reasons why she chose to incarnate in her present life and that her current life is a mere train station during 'the great soul quest'. Definite perspective change regards current physical body could have been referred to as "immortality".

But then there are fabulous tales of 300~500 year old hermits living near the Himalayas on secret plant extracts.. changing jobs/careers every 100 years during their lives interacting with the general average 'mortal' population.
There ya go again.

What makes you think that getting high would reveal reincarnation? It's pretty unlikely that this is what happens during such trips as the Cs have made clear in this session and previously.

Regarding the fabulous tales, read what I already wrote above; applies in this case as well.
 

John G

The Living Force
SlavaOn said:
Bluelamp said:
The Vedic name for it is soma and the Avestan name is haoma and ephedra is still known as homa in Iran.
Etimological similarities in the names are not proving much.

Compare the process of ephedrine extraction from Ma Huang (http://www.hoboes.com/pub/Prohibition/Drug%20Information/Miscellaneous/Ephedrine/Ephedrine%20from%20Ma%20Huang/) to the processing described in Rig Vedas:

In soma preparation fresh plants were turned into mush with stones, strained through sieves and fleece and mixed with milk before storing in wooden buckets. None of the juices were discarded.
In ephedrine extraction you can use either fresh or dried plant matter, whereas using dried plants produces stronger extract. Since it is alcohol extraction with ethanol or naphta or even more heavy duty solvents (http://www.ephedra.nu/chemistry_1.html), everything is evaporated and the final product is a dried powder.
Sure the Zoroastrians could do things differently; they do today with ephedra:

_https://heritageinstitute.com/zoroastrianism/haoma/index.htm

The method of preparing the haoma extract is preserved in the principal Zoroastrian ritual called the yasna ceremony where the central rite is the ab-zohr, meaning strength to water. Two liquid extracts called parahom (from para-haoma meaning before-haoma) and hom are prepared during the rite. The first parahom extract is made by pounding of a mixture of three small twigs of ephedra (described below), one pomegranate (Av. hadanaepata) twig, pomegranate leaves and water. Cow's milk in Iran, or goat's milk in India, replaces water in a second preparation.
Zoroaster himself by the way supposedly did not like the haoma ritual. The Soma/haoma root word means "press" and it's used for ephedra in other languages too (Nepali somalata, Pashto oman, Baluchi huma).

Where the inextinguishable light shines, the world where the sun was placed, in that immortal, unfading world, O Purifier, place me. O drop of Soma… where Heaven is enclosed, where these young waters are- there make me immortal… where the worlds are made of light, there make me immortal. O drop of Soma, flow for Indra. (Rig Veda 9.113.7-9)
Via being on this forum, I frankly have a hard time reading that without thinking about an immortal Bran-head comet floating off into the dusty stream of the ecliptic. But yes Laura just said the search for immortality is ancient and more recently alchemist have kept up the quest. Some of the ancient thinking could be more in the being immortal in the life after death sense too. The above from the Rig Veda about being immortal in heaven could fit with that. It seems like comets, actual ancient channeling inspired information (that still should be checked out), and wishful thinking get morphed together a lot over time.
 

Divide by Zero

The Living Force
Laura said:
After thinking about it a moment or two, it seems to me that it would be very useful for everyone to read "Minds and Gods: The Cognitive Foundations of Religion" (Todd Tremlin). I could then scan and post the last two articles/papers from "Information and the Nature of Reality: From Physics to Metaphysics" (Paul Davies and Niels Henrik Gregersen) since those are the two that clearest for the average reader and say what needs to be said.

The reason I say this is because it is indeed helpful to understand how the brain/mind works in a strictly structural and mechanical way then one doesn't get all discombobulated imagining that there was really a "plant of immortality" and trying to figure out what it was. The formulation of this idea follows well-understood brain procedures as described in the above book.

I tell ya, if people really understood the full range and type of thought errors they are subject to just by virtue of the nature of their brain, they would be much better equipped to figure things out.
Thanks for the book suggestion. It will help to understand what these historians thought as they wrote the history. As the Collingwood and Carr books teach us, what is written in history has to be examined because there are biases everywhere, especially in how our brains interpret and justify things.

In thinking about the bicameral mind theory, ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bicameralism_(psychology) ) this book sounds interesting. Voices and visions that are ascribed to gods are from parts of the brain, according to bicameralism. It's seems to be a schizophrenic state, that connects dots that aren't there!
 
Its so nice to go through a session with so much information. These last few sessions have revealed some significant information which will assist us on our growth path. Gurdjieff and now Ayahuasca !.
A special thanks to the Cassiopaean family for taking on such a Momentous task to assist entities on this materialistic plane.
The journey must continue in 2018.
 
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