The Carnivore Diet

Another thing to consider is that our bodies dont need sugar because the liver can make it from proteins and the bar for how much is too much sugar for the body is relatively low compared to fats or proteins.

Well, that is another can of worms. My wife needs a certain amount of carbs. She went on a carnivore diet a while ago, felt miserable and tired, and kept loosing weight below what is considered healthy.

So now she eats a 'modified' carnivore diet, but about twice a week she needs a carb loading. Then she is good again for a few days.

Everyone is different, and everyone has to find out for him/herself what works. But LOTS of carbs (more than say 50-70g/d) is definitely not good.
 
Concerning fructose, this article is quite comprehensive on the subject of the forbidden fruit. 😸
Here is an extract:

Context is everything with fructose​

Studies indicate the problems with fructose, or any sweetener, occur when consumed in excess. So how much fructose is okay and what’s the limit? The answer is: It depends.

The source of your fructose greatly determines how it is metabolized

When people eat whole foods that contain fructose or glucose, they naturally tend to reduce their calorie intake, simply because the stomach can only hold so much. There is an automated compensation to reduce overall daily calories as well as all the benefits of fiber. Not so, when consuming a beverage sweetened with fructose or glucose. The one or two soft drinks per day easily lead to inadvertent overfeeding.

The condition and activity level of the individual impacts how fructose is metabolized

Kris Gunnars, BSc of Authority Nutrition sums it well: “Athletes or highly active individuals can eat quite a bit of fructose without problems, because their livers will turn the fructose into glycogen – a storage form of glucose in the liver. However, when someone’s liver is already full of glycogen (which is true of most people), the fructose will be turned into fat (study).”

Dr. Lustig wrote this for The Guardian: “The food industry is fond of referring to a 1999 study showing that liver fat generation from oral fructose occurs at a very low rate (less than 5%). And that’s true, if you’re thin, insulin sensitive, fasting (and therefore glycogen-depleted), and given just fructose alone (which is poorly absorbed). Conversely, if you’re obese, insulin resistant, well fed, and getting both fructose and glucose together (like a sizable percentage of the population), then fructose gets converted to fat at a much higher rate, approximating 30%. In other words, the toxicity of fructose depends on context.”

Chris Kresser doesn’t agree that we need to take as strong a stance against fructose. Nevertheless, I still hear him summarizing about the same way. In a blog post Chris states, “Fructose-sweetened beverages like soft drinks and juice cause metabolic problems when calories are in excess, and studies have shown that people are not likely to compensate for the additional calories they get from such beverages.” Chris doesn’t see a problem with an occasional glass of fruit juice, “unless you have a pre-existing blood sugar issue.”

Dr. Mercola advises: “Four out of five Americans have insulin and leptin resistance. This also includes people who are overweight, diabetic, hypertensive, or taking a statin drug. If you fall into this category, it would be prudent for you to restrict your fructose consumption to about 15 to 25 grams of fructose per day from all sources. Those who are normal weight and relatively healthy may also benefit from reducing their intake of fructose, particularly from foods containing high fructose corn syrup or sugar, as the effects of high sugar and HFCS intake may have effects that build up over time.” Of the advised 25 g daily limit, Dr. Mercola says, “If you are a raw food advocate, have a pristine diet, and exercise very well, then you could be the exception that could exceed this limit and stay healthy.”

Dr. Richard Johnson is the head of nephrology at the University of Colorado and is actively engaged in clinical research. According to Dr. Johnson, if you exercise on a regular basis, a small amount of fructose can actually be quite beneficial. The fructose will accelerate glucose absorption in your gut and improve muscle performance. That said, it really depends on how your body metabolizes the fructose. The human body normally cannot absorb fructose well. But the more fructose a person eats, the more the transporters that allow for fructose uptake in the gut are enabled… and the more fructose the body will absorb. As an example, lean children tend to only absorb about half of the fructose they consume, whereas obese children who have fatty liver disease absorb close to 100 percent.
wellnessrepair.com/is-fructose-in-fruit-bad-for-you/
 
My understanding (open to correction) is that fructose is dealt with in the liver, and converted to lipids which are stored in the liver until they can be used by the body. So it is possible that high fruit consumption could lead to fatty liver (disease?)
it can as everything does in excess, the problem may also be that of mixing different metabolisms, like mentioned above fructose(gluconeogenesis) and sugar(glicogenesis)
or fat and sugar(as you are overloading the randle cycle)

there was a study many years ago that looked into this issue of fruits and ketogenesis and resume was that fructose in moderate amounts won't kick you out of ketosis

and juices suck because aside from higher levels there is no fiber, fiber gives saciety and slows down insulina peaks
 
Well, that is another can of worms. My wife needs a certain amount of carbs. She went on a carnivore diet a while ago, felt miserable and tired, and kept loosing weight below what is considered healthy.
The bolded part above was also my case. And I just wanted to share my own experience and my thoughts on carnivore; I had been strict carnivore for 4 months, and I decided to start the diet because I thought I was having some issues with food, and I wasn't feeling right, so I gave it a go after reading and listening about the great benefits of the carnivore diet.

At the very beginning I was feeling kind of strange waking up at night with some weird sensations on my gut which I thought It was normal because my microbiota was changing, then after a while these sensations passed, but I was losing weight very fast, and I was a bit concerned, but I thought it all was normal. I have to say I'm a very active person; my work days are very long due to my job.

Some days I had headaches in the afternoon, and I thought It was due to my strength training routine or that I wasn't doing right the diet. I also had many ups and downs; days with a lot of energy along with days without it. At this point I started to worry, and decided to read in depth about the diet, and listen to the most known carnivores; Judy Cho, Shawn Baker, Anthony Chaffee, and Kevin Stock. What they said was: eat more fat, which I deed, but this didn't work.

Then I bumped into Alan Aragon's work, and other advocates of the high animal protein ingest, like Gabrielle Lyon, without being extreme, like carnivore. What they say makes more sense, at least to me, i.e. including carbs in right amount, and eating a varied diet, paying closed attention to the food that you feel are causing you problems, in my case eggs, and some nightshades.

Here are my conclusions:
- Carnivore diet is a tool, like Keto, that in some cases can work for some people with some conditions.
- You don't lose weight only because you are healing some issues (it could be); It happens (most of the time) because you are continuously in a caloric deficit.
- If you have a bad relationship with food (sugar), and you cannot stop eating it, then you have to look further because It may be due to other reasons.
- I'm a human being, and as such I cannot be perfect in everything (diet in this case). One thing I notice was that I was turning my thoughts into black and white thinking...just like the vegans.
- Eating animal protein is the best!
- Carbs are not always the bad guy.
- People who is very active (work and/or sport) need carbs in right amounts, just like fat and protein.

Those are my own conclusions and my own experience, so thanks for reading ;-)
 
Here’s a recent video from Anthony Chaffee where he talks about a few of the studies done that support humans eating meats and fats. There’s a reference in the video description to what topics are covered at which points. One I hadn’t heard of is the bioaccumulation of Nitrogen15 by the top predators in a food system, the levels have been measured from human fossils and they had higher levels than currently. I tried to find the study but only could locate one about Lake Trout, which do have higher levels than their prey.

The other was the Pottinger cat study where cats were unable to reproduce after 3 generations due to poor diet, they had similar skeletal markers to what Weston Price found.

 
It makes zero sense (to me at least) to focus on a raw diet. I mean do what you want but you won’t catch me eating much raw unless it’s sushi or ceviche (which is still semi cooked).
I recall @Keyhole referencing raw fish as a nutrient inhibitor, here in the case of Thiamine (B1).
Taken from this video: https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=the+art+&+science+of+mega-dose+thiamine+lecture+part+1+
1697301106624.png (See at the top-right)

By the way, could you share sources or explanations about the how and why of this effect please ? Why raw fish particularly ?
 
I recall @Keyhole referencing raw fish as a nutrient inhibitor, here in the case of Thiamine (B1).
Taken from this video: https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=the+art+&+science+of+mega-dose+thiamine+lecture+part+1+
View attachment 83315 (See at the top-right)

By the way, could you share sources or explanations about the how and why of this effect please ? Why raw fish particularly ?

Ceviche is cooked by the acids of the citrus juice it is soaked in.

Sushi just tastes good. I suppose you could eat raw red meat.

The more I learn about parasites the less inclined I am to reach for raw anything. It’s probably safer for all of us to just cook everything and be done with it. So what if you lose some nutrients, you won’t be gaining unwanted worms.
 
I am more inclined to trust Prof Bart Kay. He did several videos on Paul Saladino.
From memory, he says:
°Paul can handle is recent high sugar "carnivor" diet because of his high level of phisical activity. Still, it is not good for his health;
°Nose to tail approch is scientificaly wrong. Organs are not necessary but can be consume in small amount. Paul's approche permit him to make money selling supplement.

I'm not a fan of the condescending tone he adopts, aiming at showing his superiority rather than simply expressing his PoV, even though there's still some good info to pick up.
At a point (6:20) he says that "Fruit sugar is fructose, which has basically no effect on insulin."
Fair enough for the non-effect of fructose on insulin directly, except that fruits both contain fructose AND glucose according to Georgia Ede, so they do theoretically have an effect on insulin (see chart).
1702025656859.png
Let that aside, still from Georgia, fructose metabolism can also lead it to be transformed into glucose. So it would also effect blood sugar, then insulin level (see scheme from Has Fructose Been Framed? - Diagnosis Diet).
At that point, the G3P from fructose enters the glucose metabolic pathway and can become lactic acid, ATP, or fat, or can cycle back through the glucose pathway to enter the Pentose Phosphate Pathway, become glycogen, or re-enter the bloodstream as glucose.
1702026195892.png

My point is that in seeking to "destroy" Paul Saladino, Bart Kay isn't entirely right himself either...
 
Still interesting to get his take on Paul's electrolytes disturbance though.

By the same token, it's been 2 days in a raw that I come across reluctance concerning the consumption of liver, without searching for it, from 2 different sources.
In the same vid as above, I just heard Bart making a reference to it (at 22:55) and a potential vit A toxicity.
And yesterday, I came across this 2min interview shared by Shawn Baker, of the arctic explorer and ethnologist Vilhjalmur Stefansson, who recounts his experience of living for 4,5 months with the eskimos. He says that "you have everything you need by eating meat and fat" and that the need for organs is "peculiar folklore", and that liver was given to the dogs. He also says that he has since lived for more than 6 years on red meat and fat.
What is this fad suddenly appearing in my current research, but which doesn't seem to be that new ? I'm also aware of Keyhole's advice to eat organs 3x/week from this thread, to get enough vitamins...

 
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And yesterday, I came across this 2min interview shared by Shawn Baker, of the arctic explorer and ethnologist Vilhjalmur Stefansson, who recounts his experience of living for 4,5 months with the eskimos. He says that "you have everything you need by eating meat and fat" and that the need for organs is "peculiar folklore", and that liver was given to the dogs. He also says that he has since lived for more than 6 years on red meat and fat.


Harvard-trained nutrition expert: If I could only prioritize one food in my diet, it’d be this​

"In my research, I've yet to find a credible, plausible health argument against eating meat of any kind (including red meat, seafood, and poultry). In fact, no other food group is nutritious enough, safe enough, or accessible enough to recommend as the healthy foundation of the optimal human diet.

Meat is good for gut health because it's non-irritating, easy to digest, and supports healthy insulin levels without promoting blood glucose spikes. It also provides all of the macronutrients and micronutrients we need, including some that are difficult or impossible to obtain from plant foods.

These include every B vitamin (including B12, which plants do not contain at all), heme iron (a form of iron at least three times easier for us to absorb than the non-heme iron in plants), and a form of vitamin K2 (MK-4, which is easier to absorb and the form used by the human brain)."

 

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