The Truth About Hair and Why Indians Would Keep Their Hair Long

[Medhavi]

The wikipedia entry on dreadlocks ( link ) is interesting. In Rg Veda, there is a hymn dedicated to the "long-haired ones" called the "keshin" hymn (kesha in Sanskrit means hair). Here is an english translation of the hymn from _http://www.aarweb.org/syllabus/syllabi/g/gier/306/yogapp.htm

The long-haired one endures fire, the long-haired one endures poison, the long-haired one endures both worlds.

The long-haired one is said to gaze full on heaven, the long-haired one is said to be that light.

The wind-girt sages have donned the yellow robe of dust: along the wind’s course they glide when the gods have penetrated them.

Exulting in our seerhood, upon the winds we have ascended. Of us, you mortals, only our bodies do you behold.

Through the middle region flies the sage shinning down upon all forms; for his piety is he deemed the friend of every god.

The wind’s steed, the Lord of life’s friend, is the god-intoxicated sage: without both oceans he dwells, the upper and the lower. . . .

For him has the Lord of life churned and pounded the unbendable, when the long-haired one, in Rudra’s company, drank from the poison cup.

The reference to "enduring both worlds" has strong association to shamanism.

The C's have referred to hair being a sign of virility. Interestingly, the Sanskrit word "vira" is used to indicate an ascetic and warrior. A "vira" is an embodiment of virility - the asceticism (renouncing worldly pleasures) generates power - a parallel may be found in "conscious suffering" perhaps? In the Indian context, the "viras" are associated with following Shiva (or Rudra) and Shakti (primordial feminine one of whose forms is mother nature). Followers of this path often eat meat and indulge in activities which are considered improper according to the established religious norms.

Buddhists seem to have this tradition of shaving heads - yet the founder, Siddharta or Gautama Buddha is mostly depicted in pictures as having hair which is tied in a big top knot (need long hair to do that). The founder of the Jain religion is "Mahavira" - or the great "vira" who is also similarly depicted with hair. Yet the followers Jainism also tend to shave their heads as a symbol of renunciation.

You have brought up an extremely interesting hymn from the tenth part of the Rg Veda which is of a more recent date than the preceding books in that Veda, even though Oldenberg thought it portrayed a phenomenon of great antiquity, namely the ecstatic tradition made popular by Mircea Eliade's research into Central Asian Shamanism.
Whoever authored this hymn likely belonged to the Vedic tradition who reported on someone from outside his own tradition in surprisingly sympathetic terms. Jan Gonda, the famous expert of the Vedas, confirms that the long-haired sage being talked about in this hymn must have lived predominantly outside the brahminic culture and was either called a keshin or muni.
Now muni is closely related to the mauni babas of today(which means a Sadhu who has taken the vow of absolute silence).
The root of this word is "man", which means to contemplate or to meditate. It might be same as -man in Shaman/sarman.
So it seems that in ancient India, there were actually two distinct traditions which are explicitly mentioned. One belonging to the Vedic Rishi(=sage) culture, who, despite the fancy name, seem to have engaged in sacrificial priesthood activities that LKJ's work shines some light on. Even though ancient seers, namely the rishis, were said to have originated the Vedas, what followed must have been institutionalised communities occupied with ritual, prayer and legal work similar to the Levites. It is curious, therefore, that one of them, wrote down observations about someone who wasn't part of Brahmanical orthodoxy and who was active outside of the establishment, apparently engaged in austerities aimed at becoming able to see the unseen. Karel Werner proposes that there is strong indirect evidence for "spiritually highly advanced wanderers" roaming the landscape around the time the Brahmanical sacrificial priesthood was dominant. This keshin or muni differed entirely from the Brahmanical priest in that his experience seemed to not depend on either sacrifice of ritual. The munis are alluded to as wandering mendicants who, having abstained from then current forms of religious worship and most likely practising a meditative approach to the transcendent, gained a gradual shift of their consciousness into the realm of the spiritual, which gave them access to a higher knowledge, of the unseen and I suppose, looking at the hymn, also awareness of non-human beings. The hymn even suggests that they might have assisted the Vedics spiritually by way of some kind of self-sacrifice.
I can attempt to interpret this hymn, based on my personal understanding and also thanks to more recent scholarship headed by Karel Werner in the late 70's.
Now, right away I want to make it clear that this hymn is cause for a heated debate because Indology of the time between 1850 and 1970 suffered from the same problems as all other inquiries into non-western religious traditions at that time, namely:
->Movements characterised by unorthodox, ecstatic, meat eating and seemingly "orgiastic" behaviour usually got associated with the "primitive" and "tribal". There was a definite evolutionist bias. Even Eliade couldn't escape for this popular notion of his time so he went looking around with pre-conceived ideas in his mind, mainly stemming from his earlier research into the Yoga Sutra of Patanjali. Many have followed this notion of the evolution of religious experience of mankind, ignoring keepers of knowledge from possibly ancient times.

The translation found on Wikipedia(bad source for most of this stuff) is one of the earlier, unusable translations. I'll use Karel Werner's version and add some commentary to hopefully make this interesting and relevant to the themes of the Cassiopaean research so far:

1. The longhaired one carries within himself fire [tapas] and poison [soma] and both heaven and earth [ida and pingala, together forming sushumna]. To look at him is like seeing heavenly brightness in its fullness. He is said to be light itself.

"Tapas" refers to any repeated practise done in seclusion. Most types of tantric visualisation serve to arouse inner heat to enter the central channel. As you refine jing chi(base metals in G. terminology) into chi, the area of the navel can feel like a simmering hot cauldron, according to my experience. Then there's various techniques like gTummo that literally heat you up so that you can survive in icy locations such as the Himalayas, even though that is just useful side-effect and not the main aim of that technique. There's more esoteric implications hidden behind this term and your suggestion, obyvatel, could be close to the truth. "Conscious suffering", as in activity which produces internal friction(=heat) which is necessary for crystallizing anything of lasting value is likely to have both literal(=how it feels when you cultivate) and esoteric meaning(from a larger perspective of the Work)
"Poison" is the hardest part to interpret. Werner comments it as Soma, the legendary drink that has never been identified and yet compared to Ayahuasca, the vision inducing drug, based on the effect of DMT on the mind. Avinash Bose brought up the interesting notion that it could mean that the protagonist takes on the world's suffering by bearing/drinking poison. Knowing bits of the esoteric Indian landscape, I would suggest it probably means both. More on this later.
"Heaven and Earth" are linked to the ida and pingala channel which are the "Sun and Moon" channel in traditional Hatha Yoga. It makes sense given that these two side channels(or frontal and back channel in Taoist terminology) have to be united in the central channel(sushumna) in order for samadhi to occur(which is where the great insights and access to mental powers are said to occur)
When I first looked at the "Heaven and Earth" bit, I was thinking about the Shamans role as the medium between Heaven and Earth but I also remembered that the Cosmic tree that appears as "Meru" in Indian thought is normally associate with the Sushumna channel. The Cosmic tree is said to connect Heaven, Earth and the Underworld. Given that the Sushumna channel plays a vital role in developing samadhi in order to progress a long the esoteric evolution path and develop unusual powers which are mentioned further along the hymn, I tend to go with the yogic interpretation.
This kind of interpretation is further supported by the last part of the first phrase: "To look at him is like seeing heavenly brightness in its fullness. He is said to be light itself" If you have developed Samadhi, your face and body emit a strange shining countenance(know this from current practitioners I've met) which are apparent to the perceiver. After Samadhi, it is possibly to develop a body of light which is the infamous rainbow body in Dzogchen. Basically, after the channels and chakras are fully opened, it is possible to transform the entire body so that it can disintegrate as sheer light. This is well known in certain yogic circles, especially in Vajrayana, and how it may relate to 4th density(in C's terms) might be a topic for discussion some other time.
Of course, the C's have made a particular statement which may also be related to this

"Love is Light is Knowledge. Love makes no sense when common definitions are used as they are in your environment. To love you must know. And to know is to have light. And to have light is to love. And to have knowledge is to love."

To get back to the Hymn:

2. The sages, girdled with the wind [digambar, naked], are clad in dust of yellow hue [khak, ashes]. They follow the path of the wind when the gods have penetrated [entered] them.

I am not arguing with Werner's take on this. It is likely a visual depiction of what they looked like: Naked and smeared in ashes, similar to the naked sadhus of today.
"Path of the Wind" refers to the mode of practise. "Wind"(Vayu) often meaning Energy. If the mendicant is trying to go for Samadhi, it is certainly an energy cultivation practise. The passage about Gods entering them is curious. I think it refers to communication with possibly higher entities or classic spirit possession which is still undertaken by Aghoris in India today. It is also known that in Samadhi, it might be possible to be helped by non-human teachers. This can mean 4th or 6th density, in Cassiopaean terms.

3. 'Uplifted [intoxicated] by our sagehood [mauneya, silence asceticism] we have ascended upon the winds. You mortals see just our bodies.'

This is a complex passage. Jhanas(pali terms for meditative absorption states variously classified into either 8 or up to 13 levels) are pretty intoxicating(from my experience) and you can literally become a Jhana junkie when you stay in the second one which is characterised by rapture and sheer ecstasy yet also a profound sense of calm. The hymn here is probably referring to something higher as well in the realms of samadhi which are reached by Emptiness Meditation in Ch'an Buddhism now. For such to happen, your consciousness literally has to ascend the energy channels of the body until they are purified enough for Samadhi to occur. And that can only happen if you detached from thought in silence. If this is followed up until full transformation occurs(internal alchemy is completed) it is true that the perceiver would just see a body, yet not necessarily be able to guess the inner development. The reference to mortals is that the earlier "Heaven and Earth" reference can also be understood in terms of that the keshin regards himself as an immortal dwelling between the higher spiritual world and the lower world inhabited by mortals. In the Indian-Sino sphere, a path to immortality has been sought right from the beginning it seems, with the Indians more focused on spiritual immortality while the Chinese pursued physical immortality as their main quest. This is a generalisation but it suffices here.

4. The sage flies through the inner region, [middle region, air] illuminating all forms below. Given to holy work he is the companion of every god.

The first part has usually been interpreted as referring to the siddhi of yogic flight(even Eliade took it as such). Regarding this position in the hymn, I am inclined to think that it could refer to a statement by Gurdijeff:

"It is the lower centers that are undeveloped. And it is precisely this lack of development, or the incomplete functioning, of the lower centers that prevents us from making use of the work of the higher centers."

As the sage has attained some level of understanding and unlocked mind's potential to some degree, it is possible that he can now raise the lower centers to their proper place(illuminating them with knowledge)
The second sentence can refer to either a textual device approving of this man's actions or it again might refer to contact with higher densities.

5. Being the wind's horse, the Vayu's companion and god-inspired, the sage is at home in both oceans, the eastern and the western.

It is a strange way of phrasing things because I am used to the idea that the mind is the rider and that the energy/chi/prana is the horse. Vayu, as I've previously alluded to, is normally the God that represents the Wind/Energy or the refinement of Breath but is also represented as the deity of Life itself.
"God-inspired", again reinforcing the idea of contact with higher densities?
"the sage is at home in both oceans, the eastern and the western." This is a highly cryptic passage, with a suggestion being that ocean usually means consciousness which supposedly makes up both mind and matter leading to the idea that the sage has realised the essential unity of mind and matter.

6. Wandering in the track of celestial beings and sylvan beasts, the longhaired one, knowing their aspiration, is a sweet and most uplifting friend.

It is hazardous to interpret anything into this phrase. It is probably just the admiration of the writer for the keshin/muni. Or "knowing their aspiration" might just mean being able to discern between STO and STS.

For him Vayu [the storm-god] churned, even pounded that which is hard to bend, as the longhaired one drank the poison [drug] the cup [gourd-kamandal], together with Rudra.

This phrase is chock-full of deeper meaning. It is based on Samudra Manthan, a famous story found in the Purunas. I think it is pretty clear that it is an alchemical allegory. Here's a version of the story which certainly contains fragments(I underlined what I think are especially significant passages):

Legend Behind Samudra Manthan
Once Indra - the King of Gods, while riding on an elephant came across Durvasa Muni who offered him a special garland. Indra accepted the garland but put in on the trunk of the elephant. The elephant was irritated by the smell and it threw the garland on the floor. This enraged the sage as the garland was a dwelling of Sri (fortune) and was to be treated as prasada. Durvasa Muni cursed Indra and all devas to be bereft of all strength, energy, and fortune.

In battles that followed this incident, devas were defeated and asuras (demons) led by Bali gained control of the universe. Devas sought help from Lord Vishnu who advised them to treat asuras in a diplomatic manner. Devas formed an alliance with asuras to jointly churn the ocean for the nectar of immortality and to share it among them. Lord Vishu told Devas that we would arrange that they alone obtain the nectar.

The Churning of the Ocean
The churning of the milk - ocean was an elaborate process. Mount Mandara was used as churning rod and Vasuki, the King of Serpents, became the churning rope. Lord Vishnu himself had to intercede in so many ways to aid the Devas. All kinds of herbs were cast into the ocean and many great beings and objects were produced from the ocean and were divided between asuras and gods. It is said that following things emerged from the Samudra Manthan:

Sura or Varuni - Goddess and creator of wine
Apsaras - various divine nymphs
Kaustubha - a rare diamond said to be the most valuable jewel in the world
Uchhaishravas - the divine white horse
Kalpavriksha - the wish-granting tree
Kamadhenu - the wish fulfilling cow
Airavata - the white elephant
Lakshmi - the Goddess of Fortune and Wealth. Vishnu and Her were reunited after having been separated for many ages.

Haalaa-Hala - the Poison
During the Sagar Manthan by the gods and demons, haalaa-hala, a pot of poison also came out of the ocean. This terrified the Gods and demons as the poison was so toxic that it effects would have wiped out the entire creation. On the advice of Lord Vishnu, Gods approached Lord Shiva for help and protection as only he could swallow it without being affected. On the request of gods and out of compassion for living beings, Lord Shiva drank the poison. However, Parvati - Lord Shiva’s consort pressed his neck so that the poison could not reach his stomach. Thus, it stayed in his throat neither going up nor going down and Shiva remained unharmed. The poison was so potent that it changed the color of Lord Mahadeva’s neck to blue. For this reason, Lord Shiva is also called Neelakantha (the blue-necked one) where ‘Neela’ means blue and ‘Kantha’ means neck or throat.

As part of the therapy, doctors advised gods to keep Lord Shiva awake during the night. Thus, Gods kept a vigil in contemplation of Lord Shiva. To amuse Shiva and to keep him awake, the gods took turn performing various dances and playing music. As the day broke out, Lord Shiva, pleased with their devotion blessed them all. Shivaratri is the celebration of this event by which Shiva saved the world. Since then, on this day and night - devotees fast, keep vigil, sing glories of Lord and meditate.

Churning Out Divine Nectar
At last, Dhanvantari - the Divine Physician appeared with a pot of Amrita (nectar of immortality) in his skilful hands. Fierce fighting ensued between devas and asuras for the nectar. To protect the nectar from asuras, devas hid the pot of nectar at four places on the earth - Prayag, Haridwar, Ujjain and Nasik. At each of these places, a drop of the nectar spilled from the pot and since then, it is believed that these places acquired mystical power. Grand Kumbh Mela is celebrated at the four places after every 12 year for this reason.

Eventually, Lord Vishnu took the form of a beautiful woman, Mohini. While her beauty bewildered the asuras, Mohini seized the nectar and returned it to the Devas, who drank it immediately.

The nectar of immortality, amrta is normally linked to a specific phase in yogic training which occurs after a foundation has been created(normally around 100 days of Emptiness meditation whilst maintaining the jing elixir, meaning being total celibacy) and before entering samadhi. A friend of mine who has experienced this thinks that this amrta might be sweet dew pituitary hormones secreted in the mouth. If it leads to immortality alone is highly questionable, however, all texts and commentary insist on its strong rejuvenation effect.

Now, look again at this last passage:

For him Vayu [the storm-god] churned, even pounded that which is hard to bend, as the longhaired one drank the poison [drug] the cup [gourd-kamandal], together with Rudra.

Intuitively speaking, I think it could be a symbol for the act of churning our own true Self by fighting our way through our progams and assumptions(that which is hard to bend) until we arrive at an objective view of existence. Secondly, to go back to physical transformation, the arising of true chi(Vayu) pounds against blockages in the body until it finally dissolves them, which produces side-effects similar to venom as the body and consciousness detoxifies. So I don't necessarily think it is Soma(drug) again. If Soma is actually a drug.
Drinking the poison from the cup, together with Rudra...boy, I wish I could penetrate this phase which is obviously highly suggestive of something...Rudra is the ancient form of the later Shiva, Lord of Yogis. Rud- means to howl. In the Rg Veda, Rudra stands for both the pleasant as well as the wrathful aspects of God, to use Sufi terminology. Shiva only retains a kind of auspicious, benign nature.
It is certainly possible that the notion that the keshin/muni takes on the suffering of the world by drinking the poison from the cup is in emulation of Shiva's act of drinking the Hala-Hala poison in order to save the other gods and the world from destruction.

I'll now address some of the points you have raised obyvatel:

The C's have referred to hair being a sign of virility. Interestingly, the Sanskrit word "vira" is used to indicate an ascetic and warrior. A "vira" is an embodiment of virility - the asceticism (renouncing worldly pleasures) generates power - a parallel may be found in "conscious suffering" perhaps? In the Indian context, the "viras" are associated with following Shiva (or Rudra) and Shakti (primordial feminine one of whose forms is mother nature). Followers of this path often eat meat and indulge in activities which are considered improper according to the established religious norms.

Buddhists seem to have this tradition of shaving heads - yet the founder, Siddharta or Gautama Buddha is mostly depicted in pictures as having hair which is tied in a big top knot (need long hair to do that). The founder of the Jain religion is "Mahavira" - or the great "vira" who is also similarly depicted with hair. Yet the followers Jainism also tend to shave their heads as a symbol of renunciation.

And I think this virility is a complex issue. For example, once you have figured out the proper diet and perform the right techniques with the right motivations, you are likely rushing towards a more functional being than most. You might be considered virile, especially considering that we have the possible mention of the central channel unification, rejuvenating amrta(which may not be the secretion I alluded to but could also refer to 4th density attainment) and and probably refined breathing, which can provoke pre-natal chi(Taoist terminology) which, by the way, is the true face of Kundalini, from what I know so far. Gurdijeff's notion of the Kundabuffer is cryptic to say the least and I don't think it is related to the Kundalini which is a natural phase of most Esoteric schools of Buddhism and Taoism.
Shiva is normally likened to pristine formless awareness which provokes Shakti which stands for pre-natal chi/Kundalini. Strangely though, in Taoist terminology, gender seems to be reversed because I have been taught that Emptiness corresponds to yin(female) which provokes yang to arise(pre-natal chi). Another puzzle.
These munis and the later Mahasiddhas(which I think are somewhat linked together) could have been aware about the crucial difference between a Vegetarian diet and a fatty Meat diet. Generally, Tantrics are usually much more knowledgeable about the practical things than the "true believers".
Mahavira must have been quite the hardliner. For his extreme asceticism he probably was declared a great hero(another meaning of Maha-Vira), yet his possibly long hair wasn't carried on by his later followers I suppose. But then again, the Jains I've seen are clearly quite the orthodox sect so that possible esoteric meanings hidden in particular customs might get lost very quickly.
Tantric Buddhism in China, Japan and Tibet reverted back to these Muni-kind of appearances and customs. While Novices or Monks, they would be shaven and robed and following the traditional rules while it is apparent that monks who decided to become yogis, only remaining loosely tied to their original monasteries by then, started to have long, matted hair and adopted the customs of...probably the ancient munis?

 

[Bim]

Throughout the years i've had my hair in every length imaginable but i must say i've never noticed a difference energy wise because of the length.

Right now i have my hair short and i havent felt this good in years, so i dunno. This was interesting to read though, i actually hadnt thought about hair cutting in this light before, so it's something worth paying more attention to.

 

[obyvatel]

Thanks for the interpretation of the Keshin hymn, Medhavi.

[quote author=Medhavi]

1. The longhaired one carries within himself fire [tapas] and poison [soma]

[/quote]

I was curious about the usage of "soma" as a poison. I am no scholar in this area but from what I have read, "soma" is usually treated as an intoxicating nectar which is used by the Gods. If "soma" was the Sanskrit word used here, then is "poison" the right word translation? The "fire" is most likely the fire that comes from inner friction related to conscious suffering which the long haired one endures as a human. Since the shamanistic journeys would take the keshin to the realm of the Gods where he could partake of "soma", he would also have to deal with the euphoric, intoxicating effects that come from such a journey. OSIT as a possible interpretation.

[quote author=Medhavi]

5. Being the wind's horse, the Vayu's companion and god-inspired, the sage is at home in both oceans, the eastern and the western.

It is a strange way of phrasing things because I am used to the idea that the mind is the rider and that the energy/chi/prana is the horse. Vayu, as I've previously alluded to, is normally the God that represents the Wind/Energy or the refinement of Breath but is also represented as the deity of Life itself.
[/quote]

Wind could also be treated as God's creative out-breath which is carried by the long-haired one to the earth realm. Laura and the C's referred to the "maruts" described in Rig Veda who would dance to bring forth nourishment. The word "marut" is related to wind and the maruts are also referred to sometimes as the wind or storm gods.

I wonder if the multiple associations of Keshins with the wind refers to the possibility of the long-haired ones being the carriers of the the nourishing marut energy - which would be in accordance with the task of ancient STO oriented shamans.

[quote author=Medhavi]
Tantric Buddhism in China, Japan and Tibet reverted back to these Muni-kind of appearances and customs. While Novices or Monks, they would be shaven and robed and following the traditional rules while it is apparent that monks who decided to become yogis, only remaining loosely tied to their original monasteries by then, started to have long, matted hair and adopted the customs of...probably the ancient munis?
[/quote]

Tantric Buddhism is perhaps not easily reconciled with what is known today as Buddha's original teachings. One possibility is that if the Buddha was a "long-haired one", Buddha's teachings included tantric/shamanistic elements which were later edited out by scholars turning Buddhism into a scrubbed form. Another possibility could be that adopting the outer garb of the prevalent state sponsored faith (Buddhism) became a form of strategic enclosure adopted by any surviving remnants of the archaic shamanistic culture.

My thoughts fwiw

 

[Medhavi]

Thanks for the interpretation of the Keshin hymn, Medhavi.

[quote author=Medhavi]
Tantric Buddhism in China, Japan and Tibet reverted back to these Muni-kind of appearances and customs. While Novices or Monks, they would be shaven and robed and following the traditional rules while it is apparent that monks who decided to become yogis, only remaining loosely tied to their original monasteries by then, started to have long, matted hair and adopted the customs of...probably the ancient munis?

Tantric Buddhism is perhaps not easily reconciled with what is known today as Buddha's original teachings. One possibility is that if the Buddha was a "long-haired one", Buddha's teachings included tantric/shamanistic elements which were later edited out by scholars turning Buddhism into a scrubbed form. Another possibility could be that adopting the outer garb of the prevalent state sponsored faith (Buddhism) became a form of strategic enclosure adopted by any surviving remnants of the archaic shamanistic culture.

My thoughts fwiw

Esoteric Buddhism(meaning tantric unorthodox non-pali Buddhimsm) was likely founded by Nagarjuna. His legacy went to China from which it travelled to Japan to become Shingon Buddhism.
Tibetan Buddhism, at least the Nyingma school, is a complex conglomerate of Taoist, Ch'an(since Chinese monks visited them a lot in the beginning), Bön(the natives who were there before the Buddhists tried to push them away) and Indian Tantra elements(Mahasiddhas/Oddiyana)
It is pretty hard to pin down what can be considered "original". I am sure that something similar to Christianity in the West must have happened in the East as well since I don't think that any really elevating spiritual teachings remains uncorrupted for long.
The first alarming sign is how long it took the first Theravadin monks to create the Pali Tripitaka. It is possible that there was a "sorting out" process like with the Bible. Nevertheless, the Nikayas in the Pali Canon contain enough instructions to get you very far. I can attest to that, having seen and practised under people whose sole access were these alleged "original teachings" centering on Shamatha/Vipasyana through Anapana(Anapanasati Sutra) supported by the framework of the three marks of existence i.e. things come and go, don't satify and ain't you. Deep knowlege of these factors probably makes you what it traditionally considered an "enlightened" person which the Cassiopaeans liken to a "smart" person, if I remember correctly.
But then there is the mention of Illumination connected with the accumulation of knowledge that, in the C's description differs from the Canon's description.
So those might be the missing elements.
There's specific things that make me think that part of older Vajrayana are closer to the true shamanistic path than the Pali Canon. For example, the Theravadin commentaries mention that is a waste of time to sleep(!), which I think is really, really ignorant and just makes you rigid like a Fakir.
Yet, in the Dzogchen Tradition of Tibetan Buddhism, there's extensive training in what they call the Practise of Natural Light during sleep, doing Dream work and receiving precogntive dreams. Also Dreams classified as "Clarity Dreams" which mention contact with higher densities to get useful knowledge and so on. I think that shows influence from the Bön tradition which may be one of the derivates of Central Asian shamanism.

Tantra is indeed close to Shamanism when it is not one of the corrupted forms, i.e. "sexual cultivation". The various Tantras are numerous beyond count and it is quite possible that they represent fragments of unknown teachings related to the Great Work.

 

[anart]

And I think this virility is a complex issue. For example, once you have figured out the proper diet and perform the right techniques with the right motivations, you are likely rushing towards a more functional being than most. You might be considered virile, especially considering that we have the possible mention of the central channel unification, rejuvenating amrta(which may not be the secretion I alluded to but could also refer to 4th density attainment) and and probably refined breathing, which can provoke pre-natal chi(Taoist terminology) which, by the way, is the true face of Kundalini, from what I know so far. Gurdijeff's notion of the Kundabuffer is cryptic to say the least and I don't think it is related to the Kundalini which is a natural phase of most Esoteric schools of Buddhism and Taoism.

I disagree with this rather strongly, actually. I think Gurdjieff made it quite clear that 'kindabuffer' is 'kundalini' and that it is the energy that keeps man trapped in illusion. It is the source of the living dream in which man is trapped. I also think there is a lot of evidence to indicate that this is why so many eastern traditions and new age traditions focus on 'raising' or 'utilizing' kundalini energy - it is a trap for the soul, and the strengthening of the dream - the opposite of awakening. These traditions are all corrupted and their main purpose, for quite some time now, is to keep man trapped more deeply in his illusion - sheep believing they are magicians. I think this is also why it is often represented as serpent energy.

 

[Medhavi]

And I think this virility is a complex issue. For example, once you have figured out the proper diet and perform the right techniques with the right motivations, you are likely rushing towards a more functional being than most. You might be considered virile, especially considering that we have the possible mention of the central channel unification, rejuvenating amrta(which may not be the secretion I alluded to but could also refer to 4th density attainment) and and probably refined breathing, which can provoke pre-natal chi(Taoist terminology) which, by the way, is the true face of Kundalini, from what I know so far. Gurdijeff's notion of the Kundabuffer is cryptic to say the least and I don't think it is related to the Kundalini which is a natural phase of most Esoteric schools of Buddhism and Taoism.

I disagree with this rather strongly, actually. I think Gurdjieff made it quite clear that 'kindabuffer' is 'kundalini' and that it is the energy that keeps man trapped in illusion. It is the source of the living dream in which man is trapped. I also think there is a lot of evidence to indicate that this is why so many eastern traditions and new age traditions focus on 'raising' or 'utilizing' kundalini energy - it is a trap for the soul, and the strengthening of the dream - the opposite of awakening. These traditions are all corrupted and their main purpose, for quite some time now, is to keep man trapped more deeply in his illusion - sheep believing they are magicians. I think this is also why it is often represented as serpent energy.

For some time, I shared your view on this topic as well and actually, I still feel uneasy about it. From a scientific perspective, I just can't take Gurdijeff as a reliable source on such matters considering that he is so opaque about where he got what kind of knowledge. I want to separate the man from his message and G. obviously had his own assumptions.
I know that the perception of Kundalini in the West has largely been shaped by the predecessors of and the Human Potential/New Age movement itself. Now we have several articles here exploring how the New Age movement is a diversion and a trap.
The interesting thing here is that in the scriptures I've read and the people I've talked do catalogue "the fierce woman" or "the serpent energy"(because the strong energy feels like it coils itself around the central channel) as a natural phase of the path, but neither do they connect it to anything specifically worthwhile dwelling on nor as anything else but a natural progression of a revitalising progress(which is why it's called the access to pre-natal chi in Taoist schools)
When I first learned about this information I was already acquainted with the sheep believing themselves to be magicians allegory and was looking for this and that trap all over the place, yet I noticed that in whatever phase practitioners were in within the Eastern schools, it didn't seem to be clouding them in a dream bubble as I initially suspected. Their presence was strengthened but otherwise, the search for knowledge went on. No playing with powers. Now there are stories from India which suggest people who got fixated on this particular thing at this stage and they certainly seemed to be playing around with powers and appeared deluded in general. But then I asked myself: what use is my awareness if I can't discern knowledge from ignorance and become enamored with some neutral process going on in my body. And it is emphasised that it is largely a physical process.

So what I am left with is that the West has made a great fuss out of this particular stage(since it appears so early; simply synching breath and thought provokes it already) and made it into a kind of goal. Now while I actually doubt that many achieve genuine cultivation of this stage, it is pretty clear how this goal setting makes people ignorant of the overall process who then proceed to believe themselves to be magicians. And that's where a soul gets stuck.
But then I ask, is it the energy, which according to the traditions I've researched, is an inevitable part of life, or the wisdom of the practitioner that is at fault here?

After all, I might get enamored with adjusting my diet and researching this and that diet style for all my life, and might stop to do any self-observation or anything else at all, keeping me stuck in 3rd density.
Actually, the statement by the C's that those who pay strict attention to objective reality right and left, become the reality of the 'Future.', kept me thinking that any fascination with any stage of any path stops you from awakening, ending up as a dreamer of the past. Might be a reason why detachment from phenomena is usually emphasised in the traditions that do mention Kundalini.

So I fully understand where you are coming from but G.'s description doesn't seem to match anything coming out of non-Gurdijeffian traditions. The Ch'an school in China doesn't even really mention Kundalini, yet the practitioners pass through this stage without losing their awareness; at least the one's I've seen.

What my personal question is, before anything fruitful can be accomplished here, is why Gurdijeff changed "Kundalini" to "Kundabuffer" if they are the same.
How Kundabuffer is defined is pretty clear initially, seeing as he made it one of the main topics of Beelzebub; it is the source of delusion and grandeur and along with the moon, it was created through a "cosmic accident". But he also reasons something along the lines of civilization being increasingly controlled by this Kundabuffer, as time progresses, and therefore becoming machines instead of waking up.
This particular notion puzzled me because here, it gets cosmological significance, whereas in the eastern cultivation traditions, it is part of the mind-body transformation and it is left at that. If someone gets all heroic and deludes himself into believing to have achieved true transformation, he is reminded that he is at the initial stages of the overall path, so awareness is applied to keep him progressing.
But then again, why did Gurdijeff alter the name significantly if it's referring to the same thing? Or was he aware of something that all traditions accustomed to it were not? This is an interesting line of research, in my opinion.

 

[Renaissance]

Hi Medhavi,

Have you read much of Gurdjieff? Your posts seem to indicate that you are not that familiar with his work. His work brings results, which is why it's so useful and utilized here. He wasn't obvious about his source of knowledge, but it does seem he may have left some clues. But when it comes down to it the proof is in the pudding, and it's the results that matter most. For example, Laura could have left out the material from the C's and still the results of her work would have been incredibly helpful as it's DOing the Work that brings results.

I'm also betting that the original source of the Kundalini is lost, but it's affect on the imagination can be observed, even if you don't see it.

I also think Gurdjieff probably called the kundalini the kundabuffer because he was basically saying the kundalini is a buffer.

 

[go2]

Actually, Mr. Gurdjieff says kundalina is derived from kundabuffer by the following wiseacring of Saint Buddha 's followers,

"...when they began wiseacring and inventing various forms of the famous 'suffering' of theirs that they also played their usual 'tricks' with this word."

"....they also wiseacred about this word according to the following rumination of their bobtailed Reason. Of course, when this organ is in action, it ought to have in its name also the root of the word to 'reflect'; now, since we are destroying even its material basis, the name must end with a word whose root means 'former,' and because 'former' in their current language was the pronounced 'lina,' they changed the second half of this word, and instead of 'reflection,' they stuck in the mentioned 'lina,' so instead of the word Kundabuffer, they obtained the word, 'Kundalina.'

 

[anart]

For some time, I shared your view on this topic as well and actually, I still feel uneasy about it. From a scientific perspective, I just can't take Gurdijeff as a reliable source on such matters considering that he is so opaque about where he got what kind of knowledge. I want to separate the man from his message and G. obviously had his own assumptions.

The observable fact of the matter is that Gurdjieff's information is clearly on target regarding humanity's state and human behavior. Your issue with his 'source' is not really relevant, when one understands his work and how clearly he describes human process and awakening.

I know that the perception of Kundalini in the West has largely been shaped by the predecessors of and the Human Potential/New Age movement itself. Now we have several articles here exploring how the New Age movement is a diversion and a trap.

Because it is a trap, as are many (if not all) eastern traditions. It can be no other way, Medhavi, at this point in the history of 3D STS planet earth.

The interesting thing here is that in the scriptures I've read and the people I've talked do catalogue "the fierce woman" or "the serpent energy"(because the strong energy feels like it coils itself around the central channel) as a natural phase of the path, but neither do they connect it to anything specifically worthwhile dwelling on nor as anything else but a natural progression of a revitalising progress(which is why it's called the access to pre-natal chi in Taoist schools)

I see no data to indicate that this does not mean that it is the source of man's dreaming. Man's dreaming is a 'natural state'.

When I first learned about this information I was already acquainted with the sheep believing themselves to be magicians allegory and was looking for this and that trap all over the place, yet I noticed that in whatever phase practitioners were in within the Eastern schools, it didn't seem to be clouding them in a dream bubble as I initially suspected.

And you think you are capable of telling that? I think it would be worthwhile for you to consider that you might be blind due to your interest in such traditions (i.e. you are identified).

Their presence was strengthened but otherwise, the search for knowledge went on.

How do you know that their 'presence was strengthened'? I posit that you cannot know such a thing.

No playing with powers.

That does not mean they were not more deeply lost in their waking sleep.

Now there are stories from India which suggest people who got fixated on this particular thing at this stage and they certainly seemed to be playing around with powers and appeared deluded in general. But then I asked myself: what use is my awareness if I can't discern knowledge from ignorance and become enamored with some neutral process going on in my body. And it is emphasised that it is largely a physical process.

I'm not sure what your point really is with the above, can you clarify? In general, actually, it would be appreciated if you could work on being more concise with your posts. It is externally considerate to do so.

So what I am left with is that the West has made a great fuss out of this particular stage(since it appears so early; simply synching breath and thought provokes it already) and made it into a kind of goal. Now while I actually doubt that many achieve genuine cultivation of this stage, it is pretty clear how this goal setting makes people ignorant of the overall process who then proceed to believe themselves to be magicians. And that's where a soul gets stuck.
But then I ask, is it the energy, which according to the traditions I've researched, is an inevitable part of life, or the wisdom of the practitioner that is at fault here?

I think that is a false dichotomy you are setting up. It matters not whose 'fault' it is - the energy itself is the source of man's dreaming - it is the veil that keeps man trapped in his current condition. To strengthen that energy is to strengthen the sleep and delusion.

After all, I might get enamored with adjusting my diet and researching this and that diet style for all my life, and might stop to do any self-observation or anything else at all, keeping me stuck in 3rd density.

I think this is an uneven comparison. If you're trying to say that obsession at any stage is stagnation, I would agree but that doesn't make the kundalini energy anything other than what it is.

but G.'s description doesn't seem to match anything coming out of non-Gurdijeffian traditions.

That does not mean that he is not correct. You seem to put a lot of stock in many eastern traditions and an objective look at the state of those people and those societies might help you to realize that they are lacking. If they were not, things would be different - it can be no other way.

The Ch'an school in China doesn't even really mention Kundalini, yet the practitioners pass through this stage without losing their awareness; at least the one's I've seen.

Again, I find it really interesting that you think you could tell whether or not someone has 'lost their awareness'.

What my personal question is, before anything fruitful can be accomplished here, is why Gurdijeff changed "Kundalini" to "Kundabuffer" if they are the same.

What difference does that make? G often wrote and spoke in metaphor. It actually has no bearing on the truth of the situation at all.

How Kundabuffer is defined is pretty clear initially, seeing as he made it one of the main topics of Beelzebub; it is the source of delusion and grandeur and along with the moon, it was created through a "cosmic accident". But he also reasons something along the lines of civilization being increasingly controlled by this Kundabuffer, as time progresses, and therefore becoming machines instead of waking up.

Yes.

This particular notion puzzled me because here, it gets cosmological significance, whereas in the eastern cultivation traditions, it is part of the mind-body transformation and it is left at that.

I don't think so. Everything has "cosmological significance", as you put it, including mind-body aspects of reality - and it has mind-body significance, there is no difference, so I'm not sure why you're stating that there is.

If someone gets all heroic and deludes himself into believing to have achieved true transformation, he is reminded that he is at the initial stages of the overall path, so awareness is applied to keep him progressing.

Perhaps, but if a person is convinced that he can tell whether or not others have 'lost their awareness' isn't that the same thing? Can you consider the idea that you may not understand what you think you understand?

But then again, why did Gurdijeff alter the name significantly if it's referring to the same thing?

Because he wanted to?

Or was he aware of something that all traditions accustomed to it were not? This is an interesting line of research, in my opinion.

He was merely stating the observable facts of the matter. fwiw.

 

[Renaissance]

Actually, Mr. Gurdjieff says kundalina is derived from kundabuffer by the following wiseacring of Saint Buddha 's followers,

I think you may be taking Gurdjieff a bit literally here, go2. But even then I don't see how what was written precludes Gurdjieff calling the Kundalini the kundabuffer using a reference of a 'buffer'. Of course I may be wrong, but it seems apparent that given G's description of how the kundabuffer works, and what a buffer does, that they are both keeping people asleep in similar ways. The kundabuffer seems a bit bit stronger and is more specific in it's use of imagination than any old buffer, but then the kundalini seems like it may be a unique thing in itself. I wonder if Casteneda got the reference of the 'foreign installation' of the predator's mind from Gurdjieff's ideas about the Kundabuffer. The predators mind does seem more broad than the kundabuffer but maybe it was a loose translation.

 

[mkrnhr]

There is a famous saying: "The wise points to the moon, and the fool looks at the finger" (more or less). And that's the problem of those who confound the symbols (seen) to what can only be symbolized (unseen).
The Kundalini thing may be viewed as the personal journey through the different states of being. Those who cannot see beyond the symbol will search for some sensation of a serpent climbing up along their spine, somehow like those who aim for stigmata and end up having them.

 

[Approaching Infinity]

Personally, I try not to take anything Gurdjieff says literally or without a grain of salt. After all, he also said the Sun was icy, circumcision was a great thing because it stopped boys from masturbating, and breathing exercises were useless and harmful! (Yet he himself taught various types of breathing exercises.) In other words, he often contradicted himself, spoke in hyperbole, understatement, etc. He was a master hypnotist in that sense. So, I don't know exactly what to think about what he said regarding kundalini. In Beelzebub's Tales he gives a somewhat fanciful history and etymology of the word, saying that "kundabuffer" was the original word, later corrupted by "Indian psychopaths". Just for reference, here's what he wrote about it in BT:

“Namely, first of all, as the root of the second half of this word chanced to coincide with a word in the language of that time which meant ‘Reflection,’ and as they had also invented a means for destroying this material formation rapidly and not merely in the course of time as Saint Buddha had told them, they also wiseacred about this word according to the following rumination of their bob-tailed Reason. Of course, when this organ is in action, it ought to have in its name also the root of the word to ‘reflect’; now, since we are destroying even its material basis, the name must end with a word whose root means ‘former,’ and because ‘former’ in their current language was then pronounced ‘lina,’ they changed the second half of this word, and instead of ‘reflection,’ they stuck in the mentioned ‘lina,’ so that instead of the word Kundabuffer, they obtained the word ‘Kundalina.’

{So he explains 'lina' as 'fomer' and 'buffer' as 'reflection', but doesn't mention 'kunda'. In Sanskrit it basically means 'trash pit', which brings to mind some colorful images and symbols to say the least.}

“Thus it was that a half of the word Kundabuffer survived and, being transmitted from generation to generation, finally reached your contemporary favorites also, accompanied, of course, by a thousand and one different explanations.

“Even the contemporary ‘learned beings’ also have a name made up of very abstruse Latin roots for that part of the spinal marrow.

“The whole of what is called ‘Indian-philosophy’ now existing there is based also on this famous Kundalina, and about the word itself there exist thousands of various occult, secret, and revealed ‘sciences’ which explain nothing.

“And as regards the way in which the contemporary terrestrial learned beings of what are called the exact sciences define the significance of this part of the spinal marrow, that, my dear boy, is a profound secret.

“And it became a secret because several centuries ago, this ‘explanation’ suddenly for no reason whatever entered the favorite mole of the famous ‘Scheherazade,’ which that incomparable Arabian fantasist chanced to have on the right side of her adorable navel. {I have no idea what he's talking about here... LOL}

“And there this ‘learned-explanation’ remains perfectly preserved down to the present day.

In the draft version he also wrote:

"This is that very place [the end of the vertebral column, where the nerves controlling locomotion, elimination and sexual function are located], where formerly in their ancestors, the famous organ Kundabuffer, was placed. When this organ was destroyed this very brain centre had just been formed in them in this very place; and from that time it began to pass by heredity from generation to generation. Today, they call this spinal centre Kundalini, and it now plays a very strange part in their Indian Philosophy as it is called; as if there were in this very organ the lost key to the means of self-development, invented by those Indian Psychopaths.

"It is also interesting to notice that one of the functions of this same spinal centre is to act as agent by means of which the tempo of their blood circulation is changed: that is to say, of the filling of the blood vessels about which you remember I recently told you when I said that such filling of blood-vessels induces in the Earth-beings their well known hypnotic state.

So on the one hand G is saying that Indian philosophy and mysticism built around "kundalini" is a bunch of hocus-pocus. Yet at the same time he's saying it's a name for part of the spinal center (1st brain/moving center) that has to do with changes in blood circulation, which he elsewhere relates to both the negative and positive effects of hypnosis, and the subconscious i.e. our 'true' consciousness. (The subconscious being the slower tempo, which is interesting given what we know of the vagus nerve.)

The only other place I've found where G mentions kundalini (except his Russian talks in ISOTM) is in his Paris talks, where he is describing an exercise to one of his students. He says:

Now, in order to nourish the head. You start from the coccyx in leaving the bone sideways. To the left and to the right of the vertebra column, from two sides, the path goes up again to each side of the cerebellum to the brain. (G. Indicates on Tchekovich the path to travel over (en partant), from each side of the vertebra column, to mid-buttock).

To cause to flow in the vertebra column, you must first do an exercise in order to get accustomed to having the sensations of the Kundalini. You know what that is? We used to have there a tail, formerly. It is necessary to do this only as an exercise, to have the sensation of this spot.

This seems to match with what he says in BT. Kundalini is part of the 'moving center', at the base of the spine. To fantasize and think about it that it is something more than it is would be 'psychopathy' in his view, and I think his statements about it in ISOTM and BT are perhaps designed to 'de-crystallize' the fanciful notions most people reading his work would have based on their reading of hocus-pocus occult works. But here he speaks of kundalini as a sensation, but nothing to get too worked up about.

His notion of the 'consequences of the organ kundabuffer' goes much further and pretty much encapsulates all of the current human condition: our tendency to see reality topsy-turvy, our disconnect with our 'true' consciousness, our tendency to be conditioned by 'pleasure', to hypnosis, etc. And all that can relate to the 'spinal center', via sex, physiological changes such as in the 'tempo' of blood circulation and their relation to hypnosis, pathological thought processes, pleasure-seeking, etc. FWIW.

 

[go2]

A few words from In Search Of The Miraculous on Kundalini and Beelzebub’s Tales on Kundabuffer which might throw a little more light on the nature of our hypnotic sleep. I wonder if the outside installation of the human mind is education or civilization, installed until man could evolve a Conscience and Objective Reason. The outside installation of Kundabuffer has trapped us in a dream which is satisfying to most of humanity, excepting the precious few who sense something is seriously wrong in Paradise.

“In reality Kundalini is the power of the imagination, the power of fantasy, which takes the place of real function. When a man dreams instead of acting, when his dreams take the place of reality, when a man imagines himself to be an eagle, a lion, or a magician, it is the force of Kundalini acting in him. Kundalini can act in all centers and with its help all the centers can be satisfied with the imaginary instead of the real. A sheep which considers itself to be a lion or a magician lives under the power of Kundalini.

“Kundalini is a force put into men in order to keep them in their present state. If men could really see their true position and could understand all the horror of it, they would be unable to remain where they are even for one second. They would begin to seek a way out and they would quickly find it, because there is a way out; but men fail to see it simply because they are hypnotized. Kundalini is the force that keeps them in a hypnotic state. ‘To awaken; for man means to be ‘dehypnotized.’….

“You must know that by the time of this second descent of the Most High Commission, there had already gradually been engendered in them—as is proper to three-brained beings—what is called ‘mechanical instinct.’

“The sacred members of the Most High Commission then reasoned that if the said mechanical instinct in this biped three-brained beings of the planet should develop towards the attainment of Objective Reason—as usually occurs everywhere among three-brained beings—then it might quite possibly happen that they would prematurely comprehend the real cause of their arising and existence and make a great deal of trouble;….”

“So, my boy, in view of the Most High Commission then decided among other things provisionally to implant into the common presences of the three-brained beings there a special organ with a property such that, first, they should perceive reality topsy-turvy and, secondly, that every repeated impression from outside should crystallize in them data which would engender factors for evoking in them sensations of ‘pleasure’ and ‘enjoyment.’

 

[Path27]

I was wondering what the Cs had to say about this, but as far as I can tell it isn't really addressed (except stating in passing that kundalini isn't Vril energy). However, there is a passage on this in the Ra material (warning: it's in Ra-speak):

Questioner: Will you expand on the positive and negative polarizations in general and how they apply to individuals and planets, etc.? I think there is a correlation here, but I’m not sure.

Ra: I am Ra. It is correct that there is a correlation between the energy field of an entity of your nature and planetary bodies, for all material is constructed by means of the dynamic tension of the magnetic field. The lines of force in both cases may be seen to be much like the interweaving spirals of the braided hair. Thus positive and negative wind and interweave forming geometric relationships in the energy fields of both persons, as you would call a mind/body/spirit complex, and planets.

The negative pole is the south pole or the lower pole. The north or upper pole is positive. The crisscrossing of these spiraling energies form primary, secondary, and tertiary energy centers. You are familiar with the primary energy centers of the physical, mental, and spiritual body complex. Secondary points of the crisscrossing of positive and negative center orientation revolve about several of your centers. The yellow-ray center may be seen to have secondary energy centers in elbow, in knee, and in the subtle bodies at a slight spacing from the physical vehicle at points describing diamonds about the entity’s navel area surrounding the body.

One may examine each of the energy centers for such secondary centers. Some of your peoples work with these energy centers, and you call this acupuncture. However, it is to be noted that there are most often anomalies in the placement of the energy centers so that the scientific precision of this practice is brought into question. Like most scientific attempts at precision, it fails to take into account the unique qualities of each creation.

The most important concept to grasp about the energy field is that the lower or negative pole will draw the universal energy into itself from the cosmos. Therefrom it will move upward to be met and reacted to by the positive spiraling energy moving downward from within. The measure of an entity’s level of ray activity is the locus wherein the south pole outer energy has been met by the inner spiraling positive energy.

As an entity grows more polarized this locus will move upwards. This phenomenon has been called by your peoples the kundalini. However, it may better be thought of as the meeting place of cosmic and inner, shall we say, vibratory understanding. To attempt to raise the locus of this meeting without realizing the metaphysical principles of magnetism upon which this depends is to invite great imbalance.

Questioner: What process would be the recommended process for correctly awakening the kundalini and of what value would that be?

Ra: I am Ra. The metaphor of the coiled serpent being called upwards is vastly appropriate for consideration by your peoples. This is what you are attempting when you seek. There are, as we have stated, great misapprehensions concerning this metaphor and the nature of pursuing its goal. We must generalize and ask that you grasp the fact that this in effect renders far less useful that which we share. However, as each entity is unique, generalities are our lot when communicating for your possible edification.

We have two types of energy. We are attempting then, as entities in any true color of this octave, to move the meeting place of inner and outer natures further and further along or upward along the energy centers. The two methods of approaching this with sensible method are first, the seating within one’s self of those experiences which are attracted to the entity through the south pole. Each experience will need to be observed, experienced, balanced, accepted, and seated within the individual. As the entity grows in self-acceptance and awareness of catalyst the location of the comfortable seating of these experiences will rise to the new true color entity. The experience, whatever it may be, will be seated in red ray and considered as to its survival content and so forth.

Each experience will be sequentially understood by the growing and seeking mind/body/spirit complex in terms of survival, then in terms of personal identity, then in terms of social relations, then in terms of universal love, then in terms of how the experience may beget free communication, then in terms of how the experience may be linked to universal energies, and finally in terms of the sacramental nature of each experience.

Meanwhile the Creator lies within. In the north pole the crown is already upon the head and the entity is potentially a god. This energy is brought into being by the humble and trusting acceptance of this energy through meditation and contemplation of the self and of the Creator.

Where these energies meet is where the serpent will have achieved its height. When this uncoiled energy approaches universal love and radiant being the entity is in a state whereby the harvestability of the entity comes nigh.

So there's something from a better than average but still not unproblematic source. I think a huge problem with kundalini is that it's one of those terms that has 1,000 definitions (as mentioned in another one of Gurdjieff's quotes above) -- two people can be talking about 'kundalini' and actually be talking about completely different things. It doesn't seem that Ra's kundalini is the same as Gurdjieff's kundalini as quoted above by go2. So an important question seems to be what kundalini really is -- for example, was Gurdjieff talking about "actual" kundalini, or was he referring to the popular definition used by those around him at the time?

 

[seek10]

I was wondering what the Cs had to say about this, but as far as I can tell it isn't really addressed (except stating in passing that kundalini isn't Vril energy). However, there is a passage on this in the Ra material (warning: it's in Ra-speak):

Questioner: Will you expand on the positive and negative polarizations in general and how they apply to individuals and planets, etc.? I think there is a correlation here, but I’m not sure.

Each experience will be sequentially understood by the growing and seeking mind/body/spirit complex in terms of survival, then in terms of personal identity, then in terms of social relations, then in terms of universal love, then in terms of how the experience may beget free communication, then in terms of how the experience may be linked to universal energies, and finally in terms of the sacramental nature of each experience.

Meanwhile the Creator lies within. In the north pole the crown is already upon the head and the entity is potentially a god. This energy is brought into being by the humble and trusting acceptance of this energy through meditation and contemplation of the self and of the Creator.

Where these energies meet is where the serpent will have achieved its height. When this uncoiled energy approaches universal love and radiant being the entity is in a state whereby the harvestability of the entity comes nigh.

So there's something from a better than average but still not unproblematic source. I think a huge problem with kundalini is that it's one of those terms that has 1,000 definitions (as mentioned in another one of Gurdjieff's quotes above) -- two people can be talking about 'kundalini' and actually be talking about completely different things. It doesn't seem that Ra's kundalini is the same as Gurdjieff's kundalini as quoted above by go2. So an important question seems to be what kundalini really is -- for example, was Gurdjieff talking about "actual" kundalini, or was he referring to the popular definition used by those around him at the time?

Most of places I read, kundalini is always ida and pingala nadi raising up from base chakra. Most of the times, it goes to hindu texts. Later I read from Gurdjeff,C's, and Ra. The man who brought modern prominence, a kashmiri guy called pundit Gopi Krishna and later New age picked it up. The definition didn't change much later. Just like in any thing else, esoteric meaning shrowded with misinterpretaions dues to the protection needs of the General Law. In his books, Gopi krishna mentions that every body ( saints etc) whomever he talked to , they say it is good and pleasant though he found this to be very different, painful.

Long Hair topic and some pictures posted brings some memories from india. It is extremely common to find some saffron clothed or naked person with LONG hair , disgustingly unclean person lying on the side of the street, smoking raw tobacco virtually disassociated in their La La Land. I often wondered at this state of affair until I read ISOTM. In ISOTM , Gurdjeff talks of experiments conducted on the disciples by the schools. This is insane in all proportions and this disciples are expected to relinquish every thing, before they go to these guru schools ( means no help is possible except guru and guru is every thing).