The Vegetarian Myth

anartist

Jedi
FOTCM Member
Okay one last try. Ill be as neutral as i can.
It is possible to eat healthy as a carnivore.
It is possible to eat healthy as a vegan.
Both have their pros and cons. Both diets require planning if you wish to get all essential building blocks for your body. What can i say, every health guru has his/her preferences what is good for you and what should be avoided. Only you can tell what suits you, so try out different things and then decide.
It is possible that you have not visited this thread
Important threads for Diet and Health
and read some of the threads therein.
I recommend the Life without Bread and the Ketogenic threads.
You should be able to put your science background to work here, if you think knowledge is worth it
The reason people look at the issue differently than you is that they have read those threads, and the rquisite books, and so have a good understanding of what's at steak here.
 

Joe

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It is possible to eat healthy as a carnivore.
Yes, for most people it is. Eat mostly animal meat and fat.

It is possible to eat healthy as a vegan.
No, for most people it is not. Although it depends what you mean by 'healthy'. If you mean optimal health, then no, for most people. But some people's optimal health isn't very impressive. As you can imagine, it's not black and white. Who do you want these questions answered for? Yourself? If so, then experiment, without prejudice. Your body will tell you what's right.
 

lahje

The Force is Strong With This One
This conversation has been bugging me still... Sorry for my previous rudeness, my intentions were only to contribute my mere 2 cents, but im not that good at presenting my thoughts without them being loaded with emotions...
Lierre keith still seems a bit too wacky and biased to me to just accept everything she says. Im sure you guys notice it too, that shes very good at manipulating the reader by writing in style that is hard to disagree with. but her hatred for vegans is distorting her vision i think. Every example she has of vegan ppl is like she dug out the 10 retarted vegans, and says everyone of the rest is the same. but okay, im sure she has her reasons were they good or bad, i cant tell.

Im a bit saddened that some of you dont seem to listen to what im trying to say, "because im younger than you" . Yeah, age is one factor, and obviously i dont have the experience you have, but... thats quite dangerous attitude to have. How can you learn from others if you are blinded by your own superiority? everyone can learn great things even from 5 year olds, if they can put aside their preassumptions.

Im a bit moody myself and i got a little mad when vegans get attacked with such poor reasonings that many here seem to swallow without chewing! But im working on my unhealthy feelings, and these forum posts have benefitted me at least if i couldnt be of any "help" to anyone else! Guess i shldnt tell others how to advance if i cant even handle myself first! I go with what seems right to me, without always having 100% proven facts to support me, so.. Take my posts as my personal thoughts only, nothing more, nothing less! Ps. Im sure there are many pro-carnivore writers out there with better understanding of things than keith!!!
 

Mike

The Living Force
FOTCM Member
Im sure you guys notice it too, that shes very good at manipulating the reader by writing in style that is hard to disagree with.
What you wrote in this sentence could be seen as manipulative with the bolded lead in.

Sorry for my previous rudeness
Yeah, age is one factor, and obviously i dont have the experience you have, but... thats quite dangerous attitude to have. How can you learn from others if you are blinded by your own superiority?
The quote above could be taken a rude as well in terms of telling people they are “blinded by your [their] own superiority”

But im working on my unhealthy feelings, and these forum posts have benefitted me at least if i couldnt be of any "help" to anyone else! Guess i shldnt tell others how to advance if i cant even handle myself first! I go with what seems right to me, without always having 100% proven facts to support me, so.. Take my posts as my personal thoughts only, nothing more, nothing less!
Do you see what seems to be a contradiction between what you wrote that I bolded and what you wrote in terms of people with more experience being ‘blinded by your [their] own superiority?” and having a "dangerous attitude."

I figure you are trying to be genuine, so I figured I’d point out what I wrote above.
 

genero81

Dagobah Resident
FOTCM Member
but im not that good at presenting my thoughts without them being loaded with emotions...
Im a bit moody myself and i got a little mad when vegans get attacked with such poor reasonings that many here seem to swallow without chewing! But im working on my unhealthy feelings, and these forum posts have benefitted me at least if i couldnt be of any "help" to anyone else! Guess i shldnt tell others how to advance if i cant even handle myself first!
Seems like you're still being run by emotional energy. I can assure you we've all moved on and have concentrated our attention elsewhere. Meanwhile you're still exercised by a discussion initiated by you on a forum that has a consensus on non vegetarianism as being the healthier choice. Members of this forum have gently tried to engage you in your query and give our perspective on why we don't consider a vegetarian diet to be optimal for health. There has been literally years of research and discussion on this topic. You're subjective experience and opinion carry little weight by comparison. Maybe consider looking into topics of psychology and cognitive science for insights into one's emotional nature.

BTW, disagreement does not equal attack.
 

Ant22

The Living Force
FOTCM Member
Lahje, I think you are trying very hard to fit the square peg (you and your veganism) into a round hole (this forum). The effort is appreciated but I don't think it's going to work.

There are plenty of former vegans and vegetarians here whose health suffered due to this diet. Myself included. We do respect your choice to follow your vegan diet but I think it's clear from the answers you have received so far that we have no intention of agreeing with you that it's a healthy choice for most people. No matter how much you apologise for being rude, compliment forum members on the quality of their conversational style or try to make nice.

It is data that changes our mind, not opinions and kind words. And it is convincing data that your arguments consistently lack.


Sorry for my previous rudeness, my intentions were only to contribute my mere 2 cents, but im not that good at presenting my thoughts without them being loaded with emotions...

You apologise for your rudeness and admit that your thoughts tend to be loaded with emotions, and in the very next sentence you go on to make another emotional claim about your opinion on Lierre Keith and her take on vegans.

This is a rather poor argument in favour of vegan diets. To me this is evidence that the veganism does impact on the quality of thinking and contributes to cognitive difficulties - as has been mentioned in this thread over and over again. Did you bother to read it?


Im a bit saddened that some of you dont seem to listen to what im trying to say, "because im younger than you" .

It's not because you're younger than us. There are plenty of people younger than you here and they do an outstanding job analysing the data presented here correctly as well as meaningfully contributing to the knowledge base. This may be harsh but it's quite telling that none of them are vegans.


How can you learn from others if you are blinded by your own superiority? everyone can learn great things even from 5 year olds, if they can put aside their preassumptions.

Our superiority comes from data that points towards our take on the vegan diet being more objective and accurate than yours.

And who said we want to learn from you? This forum is a school. New members are welcome to come here to learn, not teach.

You literally just rejected 76 pages of data on the inefficiency and harmfulness of the vegan diet becuase you have an emotional opinion - and you want the entire forum to change direction because of your opinion and despite the data?

This is not your forum to come here and preach. But maybe you could set up your own forum and see if there is some audience who would be interested in your emotionally charged opinions?


I go with what seems right to me, without always having 100% proven facts to support me, so..

Which is the exact opposite of what this forum is about.

We are after discovering as objective picture of reality as possible, not after honouring subjective opinions of one member.


Take my posts as my personal thoughts only, nothing more, nothing less! Ps. Im sure there are many pro-carnivore writers out there with better understanding of things than keith!!!

Oh certainly, there are 76 pro-carnivore pages in this thread packed with data.

It would help if you could read through it all with an open mind, rather than reading to selectively pick data that already supports your emotional opinions, or look for reasons to reject the data provided. Which is exactly what you did with Lierre Keith's book.
 

Beau

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Lierre keith still seems a bit too wacky and biased to me to just accept everything she says. Im sure you guys notice it too, that shes very good at manipulating the reader by writing in style that is hard to disagree with. but her hatred for vegans is distorting her vision i think. Every example she has of vegan ppl is like she dug out the 10 retarted vegans, and says everyone of the rest is the same. but okay, im sure she has her reasons were they good or bad, i cant tell.
Please include the excerpts from her book where you feel the above issues are occurring, so we can properly understand your argument and see how you're interpreting her writing. Without exact quotes, it's difficult to comment on what you're saying.

Also, no I did not notice that Kieth was manipulating, wacky and biased in her writing. I thought it was an excellent distillation of the problems with vegetarianism. If you're having trouble finding specific arguments against what she's saying, maybe it's because of that and not because you are being manipulated by her.
 

Chu

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Maybe I'm wrong, but I think that the following may lead to misinterpretation without a few remarks:

Our superiority comes from data that points towards our take on the vegan diet being more objective and accurate than yours.
We are never closed to learning new things, though, IF new reliable data comes along.

Also, it's not about "superiority". That's just the word that lahje used, and which Mike rightly picked up on. It is unnecessarily charged, but a pretty common deflection when one sees comments as being an attack on oneself, instead of just about data.

And who said we want to learn from you? This forum is a school. New members are welcome to come here to learn, not teach.
Well, we DO teach and learn from each other, regardless of where one is. But it's a dangerous thing to just want to come over and "preach", because what you may actually end up teaching others is what they should NOT do if all one does is express emotionally charged opinions about L. Keith, without data or quotes to support one's claims.

That said, I appreciate what seems to be lahje's attempt at being more sincere (?). It's difficult in the beginning, and one may come off as manipulative, because part of the ego is screaming and doesn't want to let go of beliefs one identifies with.

There is nothing wrong with having come to the wrong place, lahje, and you don't need to defend yourself or anything. If you are not sure and want to do as suggested, and familiarize yourself better with the forum, you are welcome to. (After all, this is not a diet forum only. The psychological aspect, for example, shows us how little we know ourselves, and how we can be influenced by trends, emotions, the food we eat, etc.) But to keep talking about L. Keith's book or the vegetarian diet before doing so, is most likely going to be met with the same kind of replies you received before.

My 2 cents.
 

genero81

Dagobah Resident
FOTCM Member
That said, I appreciate what seems to be lahje's attempt at being more sincere (?). It's difficult in the beginning, and one may come off as manipulative, because part of the ego is screaming and doesn't want to let go of beliefs one identifies with.
That is a very good an interesting point. It's a really big freedom to get to where you don't define yourself through your identifications because knowledge and understanding are continually evolving. I find it pretty easy to move on from something that might have been quite valuable to me after new and better information becomes available. Case in point; Gurdjieff. Once G was seen in a more objective light, I really had no problem repositioning what G taught in light of new information. I did not 'throw the baby out with the bath water.' There are many very insightful and useful things G taught. But neither was I so identified with G that I became stuck, refusing to accept the implications of what was in front of me because I was attached to a certain idea of G.

But I agree, there was an effort to be sincere on lahje's part. (I believe) And that takes courage. Hopefully lahje will not become discouraged.
 
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