Thiamine (Vitamin B1) - A common deficiency in disorders of energy metabolism, cardiovascular and nervous system dysfunction

Laura said:
It's certainly a lot cheaper on amazon.com in the US.
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The very same thing on the US Amazon is $35. Not including probable tax when shipping to Europe.
I've been looking for a reasonably priced source in continental Europe but so far no luck.
 
anka said:
The very same thing on the US Amazon is $35. Not including probable tax when shipping to Europe.
I've been looking for a reasonably priced source in continental Europe but so far no luck.
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As I said before, keep an eye out because soon there might be something cleaner on the market in the UK. If all goes to plan, the idea is to have a source which is reasonably priced and available in Europe.

However, the problem is that TTFD is not recognized as a supplement in the EU. This means that all manufacture must be done in the US. US manufacturing and distribution means that import fees are a given in the EU/UK. In large quantity, it may bring down import costs, or it may not.

If the dose is high enough, then it would be worth the money spent. The problem with Allithiamine is that it is not enterically encapsulated. The bonds which hold the TTFD molecule together are somewhat sensitive to stomach acid, meaning that a 50mg capsule is NOT going to provide 50mg of TTFD when taken in an oral dose.
The alternative to this is Lipothiamine, made by the same company which is enterically encapsulated. However, it is still only 50mg, is very difficult to get in the EU, and is packed full of horrible fillers.

What is needed? A product with a higher dose, which can be sold directly from the EU/UK, which is enterically encapsulated to bypass stomach acid, and which also contains no fillers/nasty additives which will alter absorption/bioavailability.

The above is a project I am currently working on, but with no definite answers as of yet. However, IF it is possible, then there will be a formulation on the market in the not-so-distant future which meets those criteria. At the moment, it is a waiting-game!
 
I see:ohboy: Should have searched more thoroughly with different parameters before making the claim. Thank you, Laura. My original search for Ecological Formulas thiamin only gave me this:

30726

Then, after seeing your post, I searched for 'allthiamin' only (without typing the brand name) and the one you found popped up. But it says 'no delivery to your location'. Perhaps general search from my pc automatically omits results that are not available for shipping to my country.
 
anka said:
I see:ohboy: Should have searched more thoroughly with different parameters before making the claim. Thank you, Laura. My original search for Ecological Formulas thiamin only gave me this:

View attachment 30726

Then, after seeing your post, I searched for 'allthiamin' only (without typing the brand name) and the one you found popped up. But it says 'no delivery to your location'. Perhaps general search from my pc automatically omits results that are not available for shipping to my country.
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Also, the products are two separate things. The on Laura linked is 60 caps, and the other that your showing above is 250 caps :-)
 
Keyhole, have you compared Allithiamine with Sulbutiamine? Sulbutiamine is commonly sold as a nootropic and is also able to cross the blood brain barrier.
 
monotonic said:
Keyhole, have you compared Allithiamine with Sulbutiamine? Sulbutiamine is commonly sold as a nootropic and is also able to cross the blood brain barrier.
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I was going to ask the same question since after searching for thiamin I found the NootropicsExpert web (selling in the US and Europe as well) with article Vitamin B1 Thiamine which praises sulbutiamine but I was somewhat sceptical whether it might be a strange derivative developed for its special high-alertness properties.

Then I decided to do another search on HormonesMatter website and found this in the discussion below the article Navigating Thiamine Supplements:

Eva TM says:
July 31, 2018 at 5:34 pm

Hi, Dr. Lonsdale, I need to ask something:

Can I take sulbutiamine instead of allithiamine? Both are thiamine disulfide if I’m not wrong. Allithiamine causes me intestinal pain (I have many intolerances and gastritis frequently, maybe its for garlic, i dont know), however, sulbutiamine does not hurt me. What is the difference between the two? Have both same effective? If your answer is affirmative: do I have to take the same dose of sulbutiamine as allithiamine? That is to say 50 mg sulbutiamina rising little by little up to 200-300mg?

In summary, my question is whether I can follow his guidelines and Dr. Lonsdale with sulbutiamine instead of allithiamine, or would have to change something

(I am taking with breakfast, with food. My stomach is very sensitive and I usually have this type of problem. I would be very grateful if you could resolve the doubt when you know it. It is very important for me to be able to do the treatment correctly)

Thank you very much

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Derrick Lonsdale says:
August 1, 2018 at 3:03 pm

Yes, I have never used it but it is also an open ring form of thiamine
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So maybe that sulbutiamine could be good. I am curious.

A couple of days ago I received a batch of supplements including benfothiamine so will be using this for the moment.
 
One difference I noticed between Allithiamine and Sulbutiamine is that Sulbutiamine has half the sulfur content per thiamine molecule than Allithiamine. Sulbutiamine is two Thiamine molecules joined together with 2 sulfur atoms whereas Allithiamine is just one thiamine molecule with 2 sulfur atoms. Thiamine itself contains one sulfur atom, so Allithiamine actually has an extra sulfur molecule whereas sulbutiamine has no extra sulfur. What that extra sulfur does after it is left over from the conversion to thiamine I don't know. The conversion takes place after the molecule crosses the blood brain barrier, so it would seem that the sulfur ends up roughly the same place the thiamine ends up (perhaps in the same cell?). I'm not a biochemist though.

You can compare the molecules here:

How does sulbutiamine work in the same way as thiamine, even if it doesn't have a thiazole ring?
 
monotonic said:
Thiamine itself contains one sulfur atom, so Allithiamine actually has an extra sulfur molecule whereas sulbutiamine has no extra sulfur. What that extra sulfur does after it is left over from the conversion to thiamine I don't know. The conversion takes place after the molecule crosses the blood brain barrier, so it would seem that the sulfur ends up roughly the same place the thiamine ends up (perhaps in the same cell?). I'm not a biochemist though.
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I tried to find some clue to what you wrote above.
The link you provided says:

Once in the brain, sulbutiamine can be easily metabolized to thiamine. Look at the structure of sulbutiamine and here is what happens:
  • reductively break the disulfide bond and form two identical mercaptans
    RS−SR−→[H] 2 RS−H

  • protonate the acetyl (that's on the nitrogen that will become part of our thiazole ring) oxygen to make it more attractive to nucleophilic substitution
  • Let the mercaptan sulfur nucleophilically attack the acetyl carbonyl carbon
  • eliminate water and form the 5-membered thiazole ring and we now have thiamine
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If I understand correctly the following document it seems that the conversion happens before thiamine enters the cell but that's what I see with layman's eyes:

A Review of the Biochemistry, Metabolism and Clinical Benefits of Thiamin(e) and Its Derivatives
What may be of some importance is the disposal of the prosthetic group that is evolved from any of these derivatives. The mercaptan derived from the disulfide derivatives, that is left outside the cell membrane as the complete molecule is hydrolyzed to deliver thiamine into the cell, has been well studied for its metabolic breakdown (108–112). Its pharmaceutical effect, if any, is unknown.
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Interesting bit on what "mercaptan" means:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thiol said:
Many thiols have strong odors resembling that of garlic or rotten eggs. Thiols are used as odorants to assist in the detection of natural gas (which in pure form is odorless), and the "smell of natural gas" is due to the smell of the thiol used as the odorant. Thiols are sometimes referred to as mercaptans.[3][4] The term "mercaptan" /mərˈkæptæn/[5] was introduced in 1832 by William Christopher Zeise and is derived from the Latin mercurium captāns (capturing mercury)[6] because the thiolate group (RS−) bonds very strongly with mercury compounds.[7]
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Searching around I found webpages referring to low-sulfur/low-thiol diets for people who are sensitive to sulfur containing foods. The idea is that these molecules mobilize mercury in the body and so increase the circulating mercury burden. So if that is the case here I guess the question would be does that mean solbutiamine would actually be preferred over allithiamine? Could it also be why solbutiamine has been promoted as a nootropic? Does it affect thiamine re-feeding syndrome? Am I just hopelessly in over my head and is reading this making you dumber?

The references in your link describe what happens to the mercaptan, which involves transmethylation and other things I don't know about.
 
After getting hold of the Thiamine book by Londsdale and Marrs, and experiencing the effects, I think vitamin B1 is extremely overlooked.

I have been taking 100mg Allithiamine per day for a few weeks along with a B complex and magnesium. Here are the changes I've noticed.

Better sleep, more dreams, and I also seem to understand my dreams better. I am more rested and sleep cycles are slightly more regular. After waking up I can even linger in the waking state a bit to contemplate things in an altered state of mind or I can fall into another dream. In this state my imagination is vivid and it is easy to visualize things, although it naturally tends to have a mind of it's own.

In general I am more relaxed and I am more likely to find solutions for stressful situations.

Less mental fatigue, less hesitation to do small things like opening boxes whereas before, sometimes every trivial thing would seem like a challenge.

It's easier to listen to others somehow. Often it was as if I just didn't have it in me.

I can tolerate sugar and carby foods like potato and banana better (not that I eat them every day).

Bowel movements are more normal. Without getting too far into the details, it seems the intestinal mucous lining has regenerated which means it comes out easier and more cleanly and doesn't feel like sandpaper.

Up until this point I have been struggling with low stomach acid. It was at the point where I could not take many mineral supplements like magnesium/zinc/selenium together or I would get indigestion, and I couldn't even drink extra water besides the glass of salt water I have every day in the morning (and kombucha, which seems to give my whole digestive system a boost without worsening the indigestion). During the first few weeks I always had the taste of allithiamine in my mouth as I was more or less in a constant state of indigestion. Previously I had tried taking increasing doses of hydrochloride, like 15 capsules per meal (without having any symptoms of excess stomach acid), which was absurd to think about. It helped some at first but was unsustainable. After the first week of taking allithiamine I started to digest food faster and more or less normally, and I no longer had problems with having the taste in my mouth constantly.

Speed reading seems more doable and cognitive pathways may have opened up for getting better at it.
 
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Great to see you having such great results monotonic :-) . I am curious about the drinking of salt water though so may I trouble you to explain the efficacy of that? A quick google is giving me conflicting results.
 
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