Bad Boys

[jacygirl]

I didn't see any "draining" dynamics between @BHelmet and @jacygirl, nor did i feel awkward or something whilst reading their exchanges, quite the opposite!
Also, i wouldn't call it they "feeding off each other". Au contraire, i saw it as them "feeding each other".

That being said, i feel no need to push my view of this situation on all others, so i will be withdrawing from this thread for the time being, and won't be posting along the same line, so as not to create noise here.

As i've already said: your house, your rules.

Thank you for reading this, and
long live the School!

Yeah. I'm feeling a little energy-sucked-drained myself at this point and I'm not into flogging a dead horse.

Also, if I stop posting (for a while, or longer)...it's not because I'm "taking my ball and going home". That's childish, and another wrong judgement call on my character. I have said in other threads that I'm taking a wee break from study/research, so maybe this is a good time to go back to that.

Basically, this place is a microcosm of the larger macrocosm. People see what they want to see. I used to say, "Don't hurt your head jumping to conclusions" lol. People also judge based on their own character which isn't the same as an awareness of my character. I know my intentions/motives, and geez, if it's not obvious you could always ask me.

I'm also seeing a lot of emphasis on sex, female sex vampire energy, sexual tension...etc. I've reached a place in life (and myself) where I'm enjoying the lack of all that crap. Younger people cannot know how they will feel when they're older. I didn't. Maturity comes with benefits.

Lastly, I expected to find more evolved/enlightened thinking here. How people are taking the C's 'lessons' and applying them to their own lives (and their own selves). It's one thing to repeat memorized information. You can say Gurdjjieff, Jung, The Bible...you can quote verbatim, or cut and paste passages...but can you put it into your own words, and explain how you're using this knowledge? Can you look deep inside of yourself and see how this information can help you overcome your shame/guilt/trauma...? Maybe. Maybe not.

I do feel like this particular situation is going in a loop. Accusation...defense. I mean, I could literally murder somebody and at least be provided with a defense attorney and a jury of my peers. Umm, what am I guilty of again? Oh, right...being an aged femme fatale/a'la Marlene Dietrich or Greta Garbo. Even Greta said, "I want to be alone". Sometimes a broad gets sick of being a symbol for sex.

I won't speak for Helmet. He's a grown up and can speak for himself. I remain glad I met him and many other lovely folks here. Glad we both had some deep conversations and a few hearty laughs. And glad I'm the scapegoat? somewhat...because I can take it without getting all emotional and bent out of shape.
Y'all do you, and I will continue to do me...and maybe our paths will cross again.

 

[iamthatis]

I can understand the defensiveness, as it's super difficult to see ourselves in a mirror. When what we see reflected back to us by others runs counter to our own self-image, it takes a high degree of humility to be willing to at least consider - if not take on board and begin to integrate - what is being said or shown. But that's the essence of networking. The details differ, but the main message is basically "you do not know yourself." And this rarely a comfortable realization. Without discomfort, no growth.

This dynamic is expressed maybe most potently by Mme de Salzman. I didn't really understand it when I first encountered it, so it's a good one to return to from time to time.

You will see that in life you receive exactly what you give. Your life is the mirror of what you are. It is in your image. You are passive, blind, demanding. You take all, you accept all, without feeling any obligation. Your attitude toward the world and toward life is the attitude of one who has the right to make demands and to take, who has no need to pay or to earn. You believe that all things are your due, simply because it is you! All your blindness is there! ...

You live exclusively according to "I like" or "I don't like," you have no appreciation except for yourself. You recognize nothing above you-theoretically, logically, perhaps, but actually no. That is why you are demanding and continue to believe that everything is cheap and that you have enough in your pocket to buy everything you like. You recognize nothing above you, either outside yourself or inside. That is why, I repeat, you have no measure and live passively according to your likes and dislikes.

Yes, your "appreciation of yourself" blinds you. It is the biggest obstacle to a new life. You must be able to get over this obstacle, this threshold, before going further.

This test divides men into two kinds: the "wheat" and the "chaff." No matter how intelligent, how gifted, how brilliant a man may be, if he does not change his appreciation of himself, there will be no hope for an inner development, for a work toward self-knowledge, for a true becoming. He will remain such as he is all his life.

The first requirement, the first condition, the first test for one who wishes to work on himself is to change his appreciation of himself. He must not imagine, not simply believe or think, but see things in himself which he has never seen before, see them actually. His appreciation will never be able to change as long as he sees nothing in himself. And in order to see, he must learn to see; this is the first initiation of man into self-knowledge.

... If he sees one time he can see a second time, and if that continues he will no longer be able not to see. This is the state to be looked for, it is the aim of our observation; it is from there that the true wish will be born, the irresistible wish to become: from cold we shall become warm, vibrant; we shall be touched by our reality.

Today we have nothing but the illusion of what we are. We think too highly of ourselves. We do not respect ourselves. In order to respect myself, I have to recognize a part in myself which is above the other parts, and my attitude toward this part should bear witness to the respect that I have for it. In this way I shall respect myself. And my relations with others will be governed by the same respect.

You must understand that all the other measures - talent, education, culture, genius-are changing measures, measures of detail. The only exact measure, the only unchanging, objective real measure is the measure of inner vision. I see - I see myself - by this, you have measured. With one higher real part, you have measured another lower part, also real. And this measure, defining by itself the role of each part, will lead you to respect for yourself.

But you will see that it is not easy. And it is not cheap. You must pay dearly. For bad payers, lazy people, parasites, no hope. You must pay, pay a lot, and pay immediately, pay in advance. Pay with yourself. By sincere, conscientious, disinterested efforts. The more you are prepared to pay without economizing, without cheating, without any falsification, the more you will receive. And from that time on you will become acquainted with your nature. And you will see all the tricks, all the dishonesties that your nature resorts to in order to avoid paying hard cash. Because you have to pay with your ready-made theories, with your rooted convictions, with your prejudices, your conventions, your "I like" and "I don't like." Without bargaining, honestly, without pretending. Trying "sincerely" to see as you offer your counterfeit money.

Try for a moment to accept the idea that you are not what you believe yourself to be, that you overestimate yourself, in fact that you lie to yourself. That you always lie to yourself every moment, all day, all your life. That this lying rules you to such an extent that you cannot control it any more. You are the prey of lying. You lie, everywhere. Your relations with others - lies. The upbringing you give, the conventions - lies. Your teaching - lies. Your theories, your art- lies. Your social life, your family life - lies. And what you think of yourself - lies also.

But you never stop yourself in what you are doing or in what you are saying because you believe in yourself. You must stop inwardly and observe. Observe without preconceptions, accepting for a time this idea of lying. And if you observe in this way, paying with yourself, without self-pity, giving up all your supposed riches for a moment of reality, perhaps you will suddenly see something you have never before seen in yourself until this day.

You will see that you are different from what you think you are.

You will see that you are two.

One who is not, but takes the place and plays the role of the other. And one who is, yet so weak, so insubstantial, that he no sooner appears than he immediately disappears. He cannot endure lies. The least lie makes him faint away. He does not struggle, he does not resist, he is defeated in advance. Learn to look until you have seen the difference between your two natures, until you have seen the lies, the deception in yourself. When you have seen your two natures, that day, in yourself, the truth will be born.

There's a biological correlate to being unwilling to See ourselves in this way. This information registers in the pain region of the brain:

A recent imaging study by psychologist Drew Westen and his colleagues at Emory University provides firm support for the existence of emotional reasoning. Just prior to the 2004 Bush-Kerry presidential elections, two groups of subjects were recruited - fifteen ardent Democrats and fifteen ardent Republicans. Each was presented with conflicting and seemingly damaging statements about their candidate, as well as about more neutral targets such as actor Tom Hanks (who, it appears, is a likable guy for people of all political persuasions). Unsurprisingly, when the participants were asked to draw a logical conclusion about a candidate from the other - "wrong" - political party, the participants found a way to arrive at a conclusion that made the candidate look bad, even though logic should have mitigated the particular circumstances and allowed them to reach a different conclusion. Here's where it gets interesting.

When this "emote control" began to occur, parts of the brain normally involved in reasoning were not activated. Instead, a constellation of activations occurred in the same areas of the brain where punishment, pain, and negative emotions are experienced (that is, in the left insula, lateral frontal cortex, and ventromedial prefrontal cortex). Once a way was found to ignore information that could not be rationally discounted, the neural punishment areas turned off, and the participant received a blast of activation in the circuits involving rewards - akin to the high an addict receives when getting his fix.

In essence, the participants were not about to let facts get in the way of their hot-button decision making and quick buzz of reward. "None of the circuits involved in conscious reasoning were particularly engaged," says Westen. "Essentially, it appears as if partisans twirl the cognitive kaleidoscope until they get the conclusions they want, and then they get massively reinforced for it, with the elimination of negative emotional states and activation of positive ones." {...}

Ultimately, Westen and his colleagues believe that "emotionally biased reasoning leads to the 'stamping in' or reinforcement of a defensive belief, associating the participant's 'revisionist' account of the data with positive emotion or relief and elimination of distress. 'The result is that partisan beliefs are calcified, and the person can learn very little from new data,'" Westen says. Westen's remarkable study showed that neural information processing related to what he terms "motivated reasoning" ... appears to be qualitatively different from reasoning when a person has no strong emotional stake in the conclusions to be reached.

The study is thus the first to describe the neural processes that underlie political judgment and decision making, as well as to describe processes involving emote control, psychological defense, confirmatory bias, and some forms of cognitive dissonance. The significance of these findings ranges beyond the study of politics: "Everyone from executives and judges to scientists and politicians may reason to emotionally biased judgments when they have a vested interest in how to interpret 'the facts,'" according to Westen.

So we resist and get defensive. The brain is always seeking to conserve energy and run on default circuits. It can be re-wired, but it takes a long time and a tremendous effort to do so. This is particularly the case if, like me, such a person was told since childhood that they were 'gifted' and 'special'. The amount of breakdown I've had to suffer through to find some humility has been at times incredibly and intensely painful, but the saving grace in taking on board 'Other' information has given me the opportunity to get over myself, See more clearly, and start the long process of orienting my life, internal and external, to an alignment with the Truth. And making an Aim of doing that, and seeing ourselves moving towards that Aim, is how we experience positive emotions and find true meaning in life.

All that starts with networking - being willing to at least consider - if not take on board and begin to integrate - what is being said or shown.

 

[A Jay]

I know my intentions/motives, and geez, if it's not obvious you could always ask me.

A key reason for why this forum exists is because we are strangers to ourselves. We don't know our own motivations or even our own behaviors.

We believe we know, but these are lies we tell ourselves for reasons that are a mystery to us.

It's only when people point out our behaviors and attitudes to us that we have a chance at really seeing who and what we are.

Lastly, I expected to find more evolved/enlightened thinking here.

Things rarely are as we expect them to be. Most of the time, we must make accommodations for reality by adjusting our expectations.

And unfortunately, life makes no exceptions for this little corner of the internet.

 

[Alejo]

Lastly, I expected to find more evolved/enlightened thinking here. How people are taking the C's 'lessons' and applying them to their own lives (and their own selves). It's one thing to repeat memorized information. You can say Gurdjjieff, Jung, The Bible...you can quote verbatim, or cut and paste passages...but can you put it into your own words, and explain how you're using this knowledge? Can you look deep inside of yourself and see how this information can help you overcome your shame/guilt/trauma...? Maybe. Maybe not.

Can you? I think this is the point of the discussion at this stage, and I am not trying to be offensive here, it's an honest question.

To summarize, and reiterate a few things, again. Thread is opened with a topic for discussion, the discussion then becomes a back and forth between two individuals, the conversation went off topic, I asked "are we still on topic? we discourage..." and here's my take on the topic, to get back in it.

I honestly thought, it would've gone something like "oh yes, sorry, we got a bit off topic, let's get back in the original intent of the thread" but instead we got a "we're not flirting, because we're adults and we've no intention of flirting, here are the reasons" ok fine, "but this is what it looked like from the outside, however it still applies, if you do wish to have a tete-a-tete then perhaps do it elsewhere."

And that turned into "we're not flirting, we're not flirting, we're not flirting" at that point the conversation turned into something else altogether. A few other members became upset at the way the discussion went after that, and here we are. And thinking about it, I realized a few things, mostly about a conflict or contradiction.

On the one hand, I was asked to accept the notion that you're both adults and as such, because of that adulthood, I needed to trust in your assurances. However, I was also asked to be very mindful of not hurting any sensibilities, of two innocent people doing nothing wrong, and instead are doing something natural and maybe even beautiful, as if we were talking about two teenagers who've just developed a crush. And that turned into a lot larger a topic that perhaps did not need to be this large. While there's still tons to learn, for everyone, me included.

And so, I realized that if I am to accept the notion of the age and the adulthood, which I do, then I should be able to address people as adults. In reality the message was rather simple: "hey guys, can you keep it down or if you want to continue, then maybe take it elsewhere?", like a neighbor asking you to turn your music down, or someone asking you to lower your voice, or someone saying "excuse me" at the supermarket, it's courteous, simple and a very common request.

So, if we're all adults, then let's recognize that, the request was simple and the response went a bit overboard, we can't have our cake and eat it too. We can't go around asking people to "trust me, I'm an adult" and in the same breadth say "but do not offend me". Though I realize that at this point the conversation might've reached it's end and these words might be too late, I still felt like they needed to be said.

And one last thing, if someone wishes to leave the forum because of this discussion, well.. no one is being forced to stay, and no one was asked to leave, it's everyone's choice to make. I will say however, because I do think it needs to be addressed, that very deep, emotional, intimate and vulnerable discussions are held here all the time, by choice, with very delicate subjects of family, heartbreaks, betrayal, but also joy and happiness too. So it's not like the forum discourages people growing close to one another, on the contrary. I think it's marvelous topics that bring people here, but they stay because of the closeness they develop as they open up to the network.

Which brings me to, and because someone asked me, to network? well, I'd define it as in being an active/conscious participant of an interaction with a given network. one-on one can indeed be networking, but if it stays at that level, then it's a binary system, not a network per se.

 

[axj]

To summarize, and reiterate a few things, again. Thread is opened with a topic for discussion, the discussion then becomes a back and forth between two individuals, the conversation went off topic, I asked "are we still on topic? we discourage..." and here's my take on the topic, to get back in it.

That's not entirely what happened though. Other people began suggesting that it was flirting, emotional cheating by a married man or an unconscious misuse of the sexual center. And that may or may not be true, but I don't know why you claim that their "we're not flirting" assurances came out of the blue.

 

[Alejo]

That's not entirely what happened though. Other people began suggesting that it was flirting, emotional cheating by a married man or an unconscious misuse of the sexual center. And that may or may not be true, but I don't know why you claim that their "we're not flirting" assurances came out of the blue.

They didn't come out of the blue, I perhaps condensed it too much, but that's what I meant when I said

ok fine, "but this is what it looked like from the outside, however it still applies, if you do wish to have a tete-a-tete then perhaps do it elsewhere."

I was summarizing it to make the main point. Simple request that is usually harmless and handled simply, received an overtly complex response.

 

[whitecoast]

They didn't come out of the blue, I perhaps condensed it too much, but that's what I meant when I said



I was summarizing it to make the main point. Simple request that is usually harmless and handled simply, received an overtly complex response.

Mmm, yeah. I read this initial post and am just coming back to this to see the thread explosion, but I just read Alejo's last two responses before diving into the rest of it.

Seeing that back and forth felt like I was reading texts shared between people who were completely preoccupied with a verbal dance they are doing, mostly "pleasant nonsense" or "sweet nothings." That can be a pleasurable and enjoyable experience, and can help us feel seen by those we do it with and validated socially. It may not even be sexual in nature necessarily, and jaceygirl claims it's not, so I'll give her the benefit of the doubt there. But regardless, that type of interaction is not quite the focus of the thread. If it was spun off into its own thread, it would not be of much interest to anyone else learning about the world, unless it was learning specifically about jaceygirl and BHelmet.

I thought jacygirl raised a very interesting topic, but while reading what unfolded after I almost felt like I was stumbling on a private conversation between people who are acting very familiar with eachother, and like I was intruding. So even if I felt like contributing to the topic, a part of me felt repelled by the intimacy of the posting. I am 100% certain that I'm not the only person who feels this way. So if this WAS a topic that was of interest to you, about which you wanted to network and get information-dense posts jaceygirl, the wandering posting thereafter worked at cross-purposes with your original intent. Now we are all talking about something else.

Based on where this thread went thereafter, it's not clear to me if jaceygirl was asking for a mirror. But it's hard not to at least stick your toes in one if something needs to be said about how a person is showing up in a specific thread.

Yeah. I'm feeling a little energy-sucked-drained myself at this point and I'm not into flogging a dead horse.

That can happen if people share opinions about you which you think aren't true, like you're not feeling seen by them or that others don't "get" where you're coming from. And that feeling can also be a result of the truthfulness of the statements impinging on the false personality, sense-of-self, and internal ego structure (a la Gurdjieff). To be diplomatic, because of how much has been shared by others in this thread I think it would be impossible for it not to be a little of both in your own case. And I can guarantee that the parts of us which are based on lies to ourselves just love to use any reasonable objections other parts of the psyche may have a different matter to take the heat off itself. Doing that can help you feel better temporarily, but it's at the cost of avoiding the real work it takes to grow our self-awareness and being, which is the ultimate goal of this forum.

I don't say this to elicit a certain response. It's more an invitation to ask, how can you use the feedback received by you here so far to become a better person? Maybe the feedback in this or that instance is incorrect, or maybe it is true but you can't take it on board for whatever reason, or maybe parts of you can but don't want to because it's painful, or maybe it's something else entirely. But if you make a sincere, conscientious, and disinterested effort (as Jeanne de Salzmann says) I think only good can come of it. Wherever you go in life, it's on you to make the most of the information you receive, whether that's here or elsewhere.

 

[axj]

Simple request that is usually harmless and handled simply, received an overtly complex response.

The response was mostly to the other comments about flirting and "feeding off each other". If it was only your simple request, maybe the response would have been different.

Since others brought up the perceived flirting and such, why should that not be responded to?

 

[SlipNet]

It's been an interesting read, this thread. I also tend to think that the segue into a thesis on networking/flirting/banter/noise issues was also educational. It's quite true that this forum is pretty unique, and it's important to constantly re-affirm the standards and norms of the network. A little banter, or bit of humour in our exchanges, is just fine with me, but there are limits. With me that's all ok but it also implies that ultimately one has to still be making a salient point in any written exchanges. Also, I would also say that for many of us on here, well, we don't exactly have a plethora of people in our real lives where we can discuss these matters with, so a bit of social hunger is natural. I have a very limited social life so this place is more than just a research forum to me, but like I said there has to be some progressive thinking involved at all times, not just waffle.

Whether that leads directly to feeding dynamics I'm not sure. But it pays to be cautious I suppose. And as for the bad boys idea, peer group conformity has a lot to do with male social dynamics. I ran with the wolves for just a few months back in my teens, before I realised that I was too nerdy to live like the other lads in the gang. I was happier reading comics and playing Sega games. I knew a lot of lads back in the late 80s era who conformed out of fear rather than conscious choice. At least that is what I have learned. And they DID get more female attention in school too. They appeared more mature, as they were just feeling their way into adult pursuits. There was a definite divide between the alpha male types and the geeks. I maintained friendships in both camps, ever the balancer and diplomat. The geeks are my real crew, just who I am. But I always admired the chutzpah of the alphas, conversations were always lit with a competitive general vibe. There was a clearly understood pecking order in any given gang, stratified mainly on how hard you were. I think 80s working class Wales was a bit tougher than the social milieu we see in society today. Bad language, bigotry, racism and homophobia were a given in everyday speech. To a modern kid, we would have been looked upon as lairy bastards for sure. But those were the days, and the culture was pretty ugly in fairness. My response to being exposed to all that was to retreat into my imagination via comic books , films and videogames. Rock n' roll also fed into this too, as these were the icons that the alphas in school were trying to ape. But there was always a clear social stratification among the boys, a pyramid, but it was more circular with the girls, intelligence seemed to be the chief value among the girls, along with good speaking skills. Relationships were more emotional to them.

Anyway, just wanted to chime in on the bad boy idea. Most of us grow out of it, but there'll always be a hardcore, some sub-cultural movement that stays true to a kind of rough, elitist, competitive mentality. To me it's as natural as any other group existing, it seems to be needed by the "male soul", part of a rite of passage. Looking at our world today, what does the bad boy see in this fading empire of chaos and blood? Empty words, empty gestures, and a shed-load of hypocrisy. Always follow the money, watch the difference between what we do and what we say, and question everything. There's hope in me for the current youth to awaken, and the bad boys will have a head start on their peers, largely owing to them already aping adult behavioural traits. It'll toughen them up and prepare them for shocks down the line. And if they're following Andrew Tate and Joe Rogan then they can do far worse. The future isn't really welcoming the shrinking violets so I kind of keep my mind open on the nature of the male soul as a collective. Something tells me that we'll all, each of us have our own part to play as the grand cosmic events proceed as needed.

 

[BHelmet]

Friday the 13th seems like a good day to begin responding. I have been waiting to be sure I have my feet under me and have regained a state of equilibrium before saying anything.

I am going to take a novel approach. I am going to start responding, in general, without reading the specifics. Should be interesting.

First, is the obvious: Social type interactions are agains the forum rules. I get that. Guilty as charged. Five minutes in the penalty box for high sticking; game film to be reviewed for further action. Fair enough; I agree.

As for the rest, I won’t get to that until later. It is a busy day for me.

 

[Mrs. Peel]

I thought jacygirl raised a very interesting topic, but while reading what unfolded after I almost felt like I was stumbling on a private conversation

I also thought it was an interesting topic, but when they both started going back and forth, I lost interest and left. I don't know that either of them did anything inappropriate, but it just boils down to the fact that this isn't a chat room. Back and forth comments on topic are absolutely fine, as in the Trump assassination thread, for example.

I'm not sure why some people seem to be offended that JG and BH were told to knock it off because it was starting to sound like a Facebook chat. It's got nothing to do with stifling friendships or lack of humor or heavy-handed moderators. The bottom line is this is a Research Forum, y'all knew that before you signed up, right?

 

[Aliana]

Y'all do you, and I will continue to do me...and maybe our paths will cross again.

If you actually read the Forum guidelines you will note that this is a Research Forum, and a type of Fourth Way School that most of us have spent years looking for and also understand that this is a precious resource, and like all Fourth Way Schools may not last forever. Considering the state of the world and encroaching censorship, none of us knows how long we may have access to this.

We are here to learn as much as we can, to contribute to the knowledge base and help each other to know ourselves better and perhaps gain enough knowledge and understanding to find a way out of 3D. As such, most of us don't have time to read or engage in chatting about inanities - it's energy draining and a waste of time. If that is what you are truly looking for, as others have mentioned there are any number of social media circuses you can find.

If however, you are truly interested in learning more about yourself and want to make an effort to understand what others have been trying to show you, that's great.

 

[lainey]

When I was reading these posts, I thought Jacygirl was in her late twenties, early 30's. I was getting major "the girl he told you not to worry about" vibes. If I saw someone chatting to my boyfriend online, liking his posts, telling him he was funny and that he was the male version of them, and swapping star signs it would make me feel VERY uncomfortable to say the least.

 

[genero81]

If however, you are truly interested in learning more about yourself and want to make an effort to understand what others have been trying to show you, that's great.

Exactly, and those of you who are pointing the finger at the moderators are actually doing the new person a disservice.

 

[naorma]

I also thought it was an interesting topic, but when they both started going back and forth, I lost interest and left.

Same happned with me . . ..