Events in Russia

Aeneas said:
There has been a number of videos and photos of what the special forces did to interrogate the perpetrators. They are pretty hard hitting and amounts to torture no matter how one looks at it, whether that be cutting off an ear or applying electric currents to the genitals of the terrorists. While there might be special reasons for doing that or putting it on display, I find it disturbing that some find a delight in such methods being applied and making jokes about it. Publishing such content might be done with the view of being a deterrent yet it could also cause a blowback as such images are spread throughout the web. So while I understand that such methods are used to get information and thus help to unravel the network involved, putting it online and for some to enjoy it, doesn't sit right with me.
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Approaching Infinity said:
This one as well:

Session 13 September 2009​

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I'm with Aeneas here, no matter how you put it taking delight in any way or form in witnessing tortured people, it doesn't matter if they're predators or not, you're basically aligning yourself with the STS entropic thought center of the DCM. As the C's have mentioned in the session mentioned earlier by AI, it amounts to accepting the mark of the beast.

Please believe me I'm not an simple minded idiot ready to turn my other cheek when someone tries to hit me, absolutely not, in an sts environment you have to take every measure of action necessary to protect yourself and your loved ones when their lives are put in danger by a predator. Even Caesar had to do what he had to do during the Roman Empire governed by a psychopathic elite. In those circumstances I guess what counts is the situation that determines which is which and your own inner attitude towards the said experience.

Just a few thoughts, I'm not trying to sound preachy here or an "elevated soul", far from it. I guess, I'm trying to understand the C's perspective on torture being associated with the mark of the beast.
 
Deliverance said:
What particularly shocks me (and prevents me from thinking further) is that these men killed for money and not to defend any ideology.
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I also don't quite understand it and I think we haven't heard the whole story. These 4 guys would allegedly get $5000 to share between them, but that is nothing, not counting the risk. One guy said that he had been unemployed and then saw this offer. I think that most people would say no, if they were told that the job entailed killing. When one looks at the pictures which was found on one of the suspects of being in Turkey, they were at good hotels and were served good food, assuming the food was for them. The $5000 wouldn't go very far in that environment even if it was in Turkey.
So since they were basically mercenaries, the pay must have been substantially higher, I think. It is also possible that they were programmed/brain washed.
 
Keit said:
To put things in perspective, the terrorists were captured by Chechen “Akhmat” detachment, along with FSB and the police of course. But apparently they are the ones who were doing the capturing of the terrorist who "lost" part of his ear. When you know this fact, it pretty much explains everything. I am pretty sure that something like this wouldn't happen if it wasn't Akhmat. Chechens were always more violent. There were also stories about them during the beginning of SMO, and how they went after ukro-nazis. I remember how back then Russians said that it's good that they are on our side.
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Approaching Infinity said:
Thus the ear, the kicks to the face and body, the repeated slamming of one of their faces into the rocky ground, etc. To the people doing this, this person is a subhuman monster and deserves worse than they give him. Add in the fact that people in these positions are trained for violence, and less likely to be kindly humanitarians by nature.
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Oxajil said:
Big difference between Russia and the West is that Russia fights neo nazis and terrorists, while the West fights whoever stands in their way, innocent or not. They both kill and torture, but the aim, intent and target differs. Does that make torture right? I don't know, but you won't get answers by asking nicely. I think it depends on the situation.
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Oxajil said:
It's a difficult topic sometimes, to know what's good or bad (to put it simply) in a certain situation, but I think considering what happened (worst terror attack inside the country in 20 years) and the probable need to get answers quick in order to better be able to implement the necessary safety measures and response, it (the torture) was perhaps what was needed or what was naturally to happen. I could be completely off base, so FWIW.
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I think it was not what was needed, but just what happened. In such a situation and under the huge stress and pressure on the guys doing this work, there is no time to sit around and have a philosophical discussion about what to do and the merits of different approaches. Adrenal is pumping and things happen and what happened happened. I can not honestly say that I would act differently in such a given situation. That doesn't make it right though.

What my main point was in bringing the topic up, was how the wide distribution of these incidents have had many commenters on Telegram and elsewhere rejoice about it and make jokes about it. That is what I see as dangerous not so much the isolated act itself. Dangerous because the spectators (those behind the screens watching this with glee) start to accept it as normal or as justified when it the crime is big enough or perhaps just when it is the other 'team'. That is a slippery slope that is not healthy as such public showing works like education by example and if these guys or their children who also can watch such things later in life find themselves in similar bad situations, then the first bar internally has already long been crossed and the hurdles to using torture are less robust.
Yas said:
The discussion here turned to torture, but I think that what they were doing wasn't necessarily torture in order to get information, it was more like a violent vengeance. I don't condone it and I tend to avoid those videos because I get distressed when I see people being lynched and violently punished like that, regardless of their crimes, but I can understand how, after such a horrible attack that killed so many people, some people can react in such a way, especially if they are trained for violence or accustomed to it.
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Yes, I can understand it too. Especially as probably a number of these Akhmat guys most likely have either lost close friends during the SMO or had friends coming back as broken POWs after torture by Ukrainians.

As Yas also pointed to, this time on Sott:
President Putin calls for 'humanism and mercy' after Moscow terror attack

I thought is was a very important move by President Putin to try to call for calm and for appeal to creativity, humanity and mercy. These are values to build a society or a society on and so opposite what we have seen from the West during the last few decades despite the rhetoric of 'Western values'. It is all to easy to go for the revenge as we have seen the US do, when the self-inflicted 9/11 happened and where there was no amount of blood sacrifice, torture or depravity which was enough for the ghouls running the Deep State. It is something entirely different to promote ideas as Putin is doing which can inspire and elevate people to become better people guided by higher values.

Thus I see it as a good sign that Putin brings back the idea of mercy and to which I can only say Ave Caesar!
 
Aeneas said:
What my main point was in bringing the topic up, was how the wide distribution of these incidents have had many commenters on Telegram and elsewhere rejoice about it and make jokes about it. That is what I see as dangerous not so much the isolated act itself. Dangerous because the spectators (those behind the screens watching this with glee) start to accept it as normal or as justified when it the crime is big enough or perhaps just when it is the other 'team'. That is a slippery slope that is not healthy as such public showing works like education by example and if these guys or their children who also can watch such things later in life find themselves in similar bad situations, then the first bar internally has already long been crossed and the hurdles to using torture are less robust.
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In pretty much any telegram group with comments, covering any recent or current conflict or war, from either side, you will find people in the comments gleefully posting gory videos and images of dead civilians or soldiers from the other side. The good moderators will try to rein it in, but in my experience, it's pretty universal. War tends to bring out the worst in a significant number of people.
 
Starting in the late 60's roughly and all the "Terrorist " attacks and killings across Europe and the UK, starting with the Bader Meinhoff (not sure of spelling) this will be the 1st time an enquiry will be taken to the end.

Hard to believe this bit of information. No Government has ever gone beyond the Lone Shooter or the culprits got away.

Russia has so many firsts and we are watching in real time. Various heads of states must be very nervous at the moment.
 
Bluegazer said:
From these last events I kept thinking... how do you get someone to confess or reveal information without torture? A person can dissuade or they can persuade. In any case, a choice is presented, but one that does not involve direct blackmail, or at least a very, very subtle one.

If these terrorists have families, wives, children, sisters and brothers I think I would remind these terrorists that they have now tainted their families, and that the crime committed against these people will haunt them even after they are dead.

With what face will they be able to look back at their loved ones when the latter reject them for the aberration they have committed?

With this I just think that we should appeal to the conscience of the individual (if there is one) and make them face the consequences of their crime, not towards society and its laws, but towards what they could understand as the most precious (again if they are not all psychopaths).

In the face of remorse they will finally genuinely confess who, how and why in an act of relieving the burden on their being. Maybe this is psychological torture and I am completely wrong but I think it is about confronting them with the horrible reality and the consequences to themselves. If they are made to see the repudiation they will have from their nearest and dearest that it will follow them until death... that they must be made to SEE that THEY have chosen that path of torture. And that if they want to make amends, they should confess.
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You would attempt to appeal to the consciences of four guys who murdered 150 innocent people for $5000 each?

Deliverance said:
What particularly shocks me (and prevents me from thinking further) is that these men killed for money and not to defend any ideology.
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Same here. The fact that they did it for money is surreal to me.
 
It's amazing! You won't see this on Russian TV. This aunt admires the "operation" in Crocus using the words "masterfully", "phenomenally". She doesn't seem to be 15 years old and should remember Charlie Hebdo, the Bataclan. I wonder what epithets she used then? I have a vague hope that in this case there is some kind of substitution, taking out of context or something similar. Can French speakers tell me what she's really talking about? Well, if she really admires what happened, then I really want her to become the only participant in the next such "masterful" performance, so to speak, for an encore, so that she enjoys it to the end.
French journalist Anne Niva admires GUR's operation in Crocus: "if they are Ukrainians, then this is a masterstroke"

Nević Nenad said:
They sure do look brainwashed and programed. Look at them, they look a bit more than animals, but not large bit. Almost to start wondering how they even managed all that technically.
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Don't be surprised. It must be understood that these are people with the concepts of the Middle Ages, if not the Stone Age, and in all respects. I wrote a little above about the informal name of Chechen, so for Central Asian we also have such a well-established name since the Soviet era and still alive today - churki (chocks). A churka in Russian is a wooden stump.
In Russia, there is an established expression about uncultured, ill-mannered people - you can get a girl out of the village, but you can't get a village out of a girl. By analogy with this expression, we can say that the churka can be pulled out of their native Middle Ages, but the Middle Ages cannot be pulled out of the churks.

Потрясающе! Такого по российскому телевизору не увидишь. Эта тетя восторгается "операцией" в Крокусе с использованием слов "мастерски", "феноменально". Она вроде бы не 15 летняя и должна помнить Шарли Эбдо, Батаклан. Интересно какие эпитеты использовала она тогда? У меня есть смутная надежда на то, что в данном случае имеет место быть какая то подмена, вырывание из контекста или что то подобное. Франкоязычные может подскажут о чем она на самом деле говорит? Ну а если она действительно восторгается случившемся, то так и хочется, чтобы она стала единственной участницей следующего подобного "мастерского" выступления, так сказать на бис, чтобы насладилась уже до конца.
Не надо удивляться. Надо понять, что это люди с понятиями средневековья, если не каменного века, причем во всех отношениях. Я чуть выше писал о неформальном названии чеченцев, так вот для среднеазиатов у нас тоже есть такое устоявшееся еще со времен СССР и живое до сих пор название- чурки. Чурка по русски это деревянный обрубок.
В России есть устоявшееся выражение по поводу некультурных, невоспитанных людей- девочку из деревни можно вытащить, а вот деревню из девочки нельзя. По аналогии с этим выражением можно сказать, что чурок из их родного средневековья вытащить можно, а вот средневековье из чурок вытащить нельзя.
 
Last Tuesday, Lukashenko talked to Belta (G-transl) about interaction with Russia in detaining terrorists.

March 26 - President of Belarus Alexander Lukashenko, answering questions from journalists, told details about the interaction with Russian President Vladimir Putin and at the level of special services when detaining persons who committed a terrorist attack in the Moscow region. ...

Even after the tragedy, some media did not rule out the possibility that the terrorists were planning to escape to Belarus through the Bryansk region. Alexander Lukashenko categorically responded to these assumptions: “They could not go to Belarus. Their curators (we have suspicions about some, I’ll call Putin and tell them my suspicions) - they understood that it was impossible to enter Belarus. Because in the first minutes "Just as in Russia part of the region switched to a heightened security regime, so do we. In the very first minutes, the chairman of the KGB reported to me (he is involved in anti-terrorism measures). We brought our units into action in response to the combat situation itself." In particular, the forces of the Ministry of Internal Affairs were involved, posts were set up on roads, including those with Russia, the forces of the KGB, the State Border Committee, and some military units were involved. “That’s why they couldn’t enter Belarus. They saw it. So they turned away and went to the section of the Ukrainian-Russian border,” the head of state said. The arrest operation, according to the President, went very well. ...

As soon as the heads of state received information from the intelligence services that a car with terrorists was moving in the direction of Bryansk, an agreement was reached that Belarus would block its section of the direction of the probable movement of the criminals, and the Russian side would block its own. “We called each other.
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Interesting interview (13 min) with Dr. Gilbert Doktorow by WION. It concerns public statements by Alexander Bortnikov (FSB).


Intro from Doktorow' website, just published. It covers a bit of what is on the video (first in English, then in German):

Yesterday’s remarkable statements to journalists by Alexander Bortnikov, director of Russia’s Federal Security Service (FSB)

To the uninitiated, I explain first that the FSB is the successor organization to the Soviet Union’s well-known and much feared KGB. However, the FSB today might be better compared with the FBI in the United States. It deals with domestic criminality of all kinds and with threats to Russian civilians such as terrorism. The agency and its head are rarely in the news.

In this respect, the FSB is less visible both at home and abroad than the Foreign Intelligence Service headed by Sergei Naryshkin, a state figure who spent five years of this millennium as chairman of the State Duma, Russia’s lower house of the legislature, and also three years as head of the Presidential Administration. In both positions Naryshkin was very often seen on television performing his duties.

By contrast, Bortnikov spent the past 15 years in his FSB offices out of sight. However, the spectacular attack on the Crocus City Hall concert venue has propelled him to center stage and yesterday he met with the Russian state television journalist Pavel Zarubin for an interview and then allowed himself to be questioned further by a gaggle of other journalists on his way out along a corridor. This spontaneous Q&A was later broadcast on the television news. What Bortnikov had to say was extraordinary and bears directly on whether you and I should now be looking for bomb shelters. Regrettably you will not find any of it in the lead stories of today’s mainstream media. The Financial Times, for example, features an account of Xi’s meeting with CEOs of American businesses to mend ties: interesting, but not very relevant if we are at the cusp of WWIII.
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By the way, the jihadist group whos members reportedly committed the terrorist attack, is ISIS-K or Islamic State Vilayata (= Province) Khorasan. Khorasan Province is known as a big saffron producer. In fact, Khorasan’s saffron is considered a part of Khorasani culture. Saffron is both a spice and the flower it comes from. The flower's Latin name is Crocus, as it is in Russian and other Slavic languages.
 
This is also an event! For the first time since 2018!
It turns out that, hiding behind the new strongest information occasion, the British are trying to put the past, unsuccessful, scandalous and also tragic episode on the brakes.
Zakharova said that for the first time since 2018, Britain has responded to the Russian Federation's request for the Skripals

MOSCOW, March 27. /tass/. For the first time since 2018, the UK has responded to a Russian request on the situation around Sergei and Yulia Skripal. This was announced at a briefing by the official representative of the Russian Foreign Ministry, Maria Zakharova.

"We have received a response from Britain to the request for the Skripals," she said. As Zakharova noted, the response note was received for the first time since mid-2018.

Yulia Skripal, according to the British Foreign Ministry, rejected Russia's offer of consular assistance, Zakharova said. "The response note reports that Yulia Skripal allegedly took note of the offer of consular assistance, but rejected it," the diplomat said. According to the official representative of the diplomatic department, there is not a word about the fate of Sergei Skripal in the response of the British Foreign Ministry. "I would like to ask the British, please tell me, is he alive? Can you at least tell me that?" - she noted.

"Responding to demands to provide information on the official results of the investigation into the incident in Salisbury, British diplomats said they would not comment on this topic, since the relevant legal procedures are still ongoing," Zakharova shared information.

"We consider the forced reaction of the British side as an unsuccessful attempt to justify the inexplicable and unlawful long-term concealment of information about Russian citizens and, of course, another information manipulation," the diplomat stated. "We will continue to methodically seek comprehensive information about the fate of Russian citizens who disappeared without a trace in Britain six years ago, and clarify all the components of the Salisbury incident and generally insist on justice in this case."

About the situation around the Skripals
According to the British side, on March 4, 2018, former GRU Colonel Sergei Skripal, convicted in Russia of spying for Britain, and his daughter Yulia were exposed to the Novichok nerve agent in Salisbury. Later, London made a statement that this substance was allegedly developed in Russia, on this basis, accused Moscow of involvement in the incident. The Russian side categorically rejected all speculation in this regard. Experts from the laboratory in the British Porton Down have not been able to determine the origin of the substance with which the Skripals were allegedly poisoned.

On September 5, 2018, Theresa May, then the head of the British government, informed the British parliament about the findings of the investigation, saying that two Russians with passports in the names of Alexander Petrov and Ruslan Boshirov, whom the British special services consider "agents of the GRU", were suspected of the attempted murder of the Skripals. Petrov and Boshirov gave an interview to RT, in which they denied these accusations. Later, Scotland Yard reported that charges in the Skripal case were also brought against Denis Sergeev, who allegedly is also a "GRU agent."
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https://tass.ru/politika/20373771?utm_source=yxnews&utm_medium=desktop

Вот это тоже событие! Впервые с 2018 года!
Получается, что прикрываясь новым сильнейшим инфоповодом британцы пытаются спустить прошлый, неудачный, скандальный и тоже трагический эпизод на тормозах.
 
T.C. said:
You would attempt to appeal to the consciences of four guys who murdered 150 innocent people for $5000 each?
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Please pay attention:

conscience of the individual (if there is one) and make them face the consequences of their crime, not towards society and its laws, but towards what they could understand as the most precious (again if they are not all psychopaths).
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Money or not, you don't know if they are all psychopaths or souls in serious trouble. Which doesn't mean that justice will not be served. They will be locked up for life.
 
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