The Vegetarian Myth

whitecoast said:
It makes me consider the inverse of the implications as well: perhaps some herbivores and omnivores have adapted evolutionarily to having basal levels of particular microRNAs from traditional plants they consume, and may come to depend on them for genomic stability in the way that we depend on vitamins from plants. (Think of apes that mutated and lost the ability to produce vitamin C - they ate fruit that was loaded with vitamin C so the broken gene was passed on as selectively neutral and spread to other species, like humans; now we require Vitamin C for optimal functioning). It's possible the green sea slug may have a similar system of depending on some RNA from the algae it consumes, given that it may not have genetically assimilated all the genes from the algae required for optimal functioning: only those bare essentials. :cool2:

Perhaps removing those particular plant staples has an effect on the gene regulation of the animals as well (and not just the adding of plant staples foreign to the nature of the animal), such as cows that have been removed from the prairies and placed in factory farms to eat corn instead of grass. The possibilities are tantalizing.

By the way, I recently read in a couple of places (but for some reason, I can't recall where right now) that traditionally humans (hunter-gatherers) got their Vitamin C from eating the adrenal glands of the wild fed animals they consumed. And the daily amounts are MUCH, MUCH higher than any fruit or vegetable that's supposed to contain "high" levels of Vitamin C.
 
My arms don't get numb anymore, when i lift them high and hold them there for 2 minutes. Also get less numb hands, while working with pen and mouse for long hours. Either because of no more summer heat or i stopped stuffing myself with 200grams sunflower seeds a day. So there are a lot of benefits from this diet in this case. Also i got a strange sense of elevation these days during reading esoteric material and doing EE, but that needs to be shorted out and tested before posting more about it.
 
SeekinTruth said:
[..] By the way, I recently read in a couple of places (but for some reason, I can't recall where right now) that traditionally humans (hunter-gatherers) got their Vitamin C from eating the adrenal glands of the wild fed animals they consumed. And the daily amounts are MUCH, MUCH higher than any fruit or vegetable that's supposed to contain "high" levels of Vitamin C.

I was thinking about the exact same thing! Got a gut feeling searching for edible organs or internal parts that provide same nutrients in same or bigger quantity i'm trying to get from cocoa and cinnamon.
 
whitecoast said:
This LiveScience article is really thought-provoking. It makes me consider the inverse of the implications as well: perhaps some herbivores and omnivores have adapted evolutionarily to having basal levels of particular microRNAs from traditional plants they consume, and may come to depend on them for genomic stability in the way that we depend on vitamins from plants. (Think of apes that mutated and lost the ability to produce vitamin C - they ate fruit that was loaded with vitamin C so the broken gene was passed on as selectively neutral and spread to other species, like humans; now we require Vitamin C for optimal functioning).

Or such a mutation happened to those already eating meat, especially organ meats, from which you get lots more vitamin C than you ever get from fruits. In fact, you get what your body really needs from eating meats to an even greater extent than when eating veggies, including the most crucial vitamins. As several of the books we've reviewed here state: there's no such thing as an essential carbohydrate. I'll just add that it's pretty clear that telling people to eat fruits, veggies, grains to "get vitamins" is a real smokescreen.
 
Laura said:
Or such a mutation happened to those already eating meat, especially organ meats, from which you get lots more vitamin C than you ever get from fruits. In fact, you get what your body really needs from eating meats to an even greater extent than when eating veggies, including the most crucial vitamins. As several of the books we've reviewed here state: there's no such thing as an essential carbohydrate. I'll just add that it's pretty clear that telling people to eat fruits, veggies, grains to "get vitamins" is a real smokescreen.

It seems we can get all vitamins and minerals from organ meats and animal sources except perhaps for vitamin C. I remember seeing a documentary where Indians with a 100% sea-based animal diet had to hunt for a special whale that was rich in vitamin C, otherwise they will get vitamin C deficiency. If they were unable to hunt that particular whale, they knew they would be in trouble. It gave me the impression that vitamin C from animal sources was an exception rather than the rule. Or at least, animal food sources was not the best source for vitamin C.

In Life Without Bread book it says:

Out of thirteen vitamins, only one is not available from animal foods, vitamin C. (To be precise, there is a very small amount of vitamin C in animal foods, but probably not a sufficient supply to meet our physiological requirements). [...]

Green leafy vegetables supply minimal carbohydrate and are, therefore, low-carbohydrate foods. Even vitamin C is abundant in vegetables such as broccoli, which also is a low-carbohydrate food.

The only supplement that I had needed consistently since we started this diet has been the occasional intake of vitamin C.

Maybe someone knows which animals are a rich source of vitamin C? Like this whale that the Indians knew about.
 
The highest animal source seems to be calves' liver at 36 mg/100gm.

Plant sources aren't much better except for (per 100 gm of fruit):
Kakadu plum 3100
Camu Camu 2800
Rose hip 2000
Acerola 1600
Seabuckthorn 695
Jujube 500
Indian gooseberry 445
Baobab 400
Blackcurrant 200
Red pepper 190
Parsley 130
Guava 100

After that, they aren't much better than calves' liver.

So, one seriously wonders about this mutation and exactly what WAS going on?

Perhaps one actually needs LESS vitamin C on a meat/fat diet? See the following:

Traditionally Eskimos ate only meat and fish. Why didn't they get scurvy?
January 19, 2001

Dear Cecil:

Why didn't Eskimos get scurvy before citrus was introduced to their diet? They have a traditional diet of almost entirely meat and fish. Where did they get their vitamin C?

— Kevin Carson, via the Internet

Cecil replies:

This calls to mind a question I've dealt with before: Why do the Eskimos (or Inuit, as those in Canada and Greenland generally prefer to be called) stay there? It turns out that the people of the north have a highly evolved physiology that makes them well suited to life in the arctic: a compact build that conserves warmth, a faster metabolism, optimally distributed body fat, and special modifications to the circulatory system. One marvels at the adaptability of the human organism, of course, but still one has to ask: Wouldn't it have been easier just to move to San Diego?

Much of what we know about the Eskimo diet comes from the legendary arctic anthropologist and adventurer Vilhjalmur Stefansson, who made several daredevil journeys through the region in the early 20th century. Stefansson noticed the same thing you did, that the traditional Eskimo diet consisted largely of meat and fish, with fruits, vegetables, and other carbohydrates — the usual source of vitamin C — accounting for as little as 2 percent of total calorie intake. Yet they didn't get scurvy.

Stefansson argued that the native peoples of the arctic got their vitamin C from meat that was raw or minimally cooked — cooking, it seems, destroys the vitamin. (In fact, for a long time "Eskimo" was thought to be a derisive Native American term meaning "eater of raw flesh," although this is now discounted.) Stefansson claimed the high incidence of scurvy among European explorers could be explained by their refusal to eat like the natives. He proved this to his own satisfaction by subsisting in good health for lengthy periods — one memorable odyssey lasted for five years — strictly on whatever meat and fish he and his companions could catch.

A few holdouts didn't buy it. To settle the matter once and for all, Stefansson and a colleague lived on a meat-only diet for one year under medical supervision at New York's Bellevue Hospital, starting in February 1928. The two ate between 100 and 140 grams of protein a day, the balance of their calories coming from fat, yet they remained scurvy free. Later in life Stefansson became a strong advocate of a high-meat diet even if you didn't live in the arctic; he professed to enjoy improved health, reduced weight, etc, from meals consisting of coffee, the occasional grapefruit, and a nice steak, presumably rare. Doesn't sound half bad, and one might note that until recently the Inuit rarely suffered from atherosclerosis and other Western ailments.

Vitamin C can be found in a variety of traditional Eskimo/Inuit staples, including the skin of beluga whales (known as muktuk), which is said to contain as much vitamin C as oranges. Other reported sources include the organ meats of sea mammals as well as the stomach contents of caribou. You're thinking: It'll be a mighty cold day in the arctic before they catch me eating the stomach contents of caribou. Indeed, you have to wonder whether the Inuit really ate such stuff either, since Stefansson describes it being fed to dogs.

Other aspects of the arctic diet also remain controversial. For example, some say the Eskimos could get vitamin C from blueberries during the summer months, while others say you'd be lucky to find enough berries to cover a bowl of Rice Chex. I say let's not sweat the details of the menu, which varied from region to region anyway. We know Eskimos got enough vitamin C in their traditional diet to survive because obviously they did. Now it's academic — most arctic natives live in villages and get their vitamin C from OJ and Juicy Juice, just like you and I.

Oh, and for all you vegetarians who've seen the error of your ways and were thinking of adopting the Inuit diet — think twice about the raw meat thing. Vitamin C might not a problem, but E. coli might.

Problem is, oranges really don't have that much Vitamin C!!!
 
Yeah, compared to plant sources from the same webpage, it is really very low, but it is bio available and super nutritious. Most plant-based sources are inflammatory for me and a lot of people. I would stock on vitamin C just in case though.

I'm trying to remember the name of the documentary I saw. It must have been one of the BBC ones. This particular whale was famous for its high content of vitamin C and I wonder why... I just saw Laura's post. I'm pretty sure it was the skin of this whale:

Vitamin C can be found in a variety of traditional Eskimo/Inuit staples, including the skin of beluga whales (known as muktuk), which is said to contain as much vitamin C as oranges.

Dugdeep was also sharing awhile ago how he thought you needed less vitamin C in a low carb diet. Perhaps when you don't have all that glucose to compete with the vitamin C molecule intake into your body, you need less vitamin C. It was something among these lines. It made perfect sense! Vitamin C is structurally similar to glucose.
 
Laura said:
My observation is that the only ones who do NOT do better are those who are not doing it right and have not given it time to help their body switch operating systems.

Thank you so much Laura, I will remember this and I use to say (specifically to my childs): There is no stupid question, the only stupid question is the one which is not asked.
 
From http://www.physorg.com/news125234336.html

Unlike the more than 4,000 other species of mammals who manufacture vitamin C, and lots of it, the red blood cells of the handful of vitamin C-defective species are specially equipped to suck up the vitamin’s oxidized form, so-called L-dehydroascorbic acid (DHA), the researchers report in the March21st issue of Cell, a publication of Cell Press. Once inside the blood cells, that DHA--which is immediately transformed back into ascorbic acid (a.k.a. vitamin C)--can be efficiently carried through the bloodstream to the rest of the body, the researchers suggest.

“Evolution is amazing. Even though people talk about this as an ‘inborn error’—a metabolic defect that all humans have—there is also this incredible manner in which we’ve responded to the defect, using some of the body’s most plentiful cells,” said Naomi Taylor of Université Montpellier I and II in France, noting that the body harbors billions of red blood cells. “[Through evolution], we’ve created this system that takes out the oxidized form of vitamin C and transports the essential, antioxidant form.”

Meanwhile, the red cells of other mammals apparently take up very little, if any, DHA, which might explain why they need to produce so much more vitamin C than we need to get from our diets, Taylor said. The recommended daily dose of vitamin C for humans is just one mg/kg, while goats, for example, produce the vitamin at a striking rate of 200 mg/kg each day.

In essence, the red cells of animals that can’t make vitamin C recycle what little they’ve got. Earlier studies had described the recycling process, Taylor said. “Our contribution to the whole story is to show that this process of recycling exists specifically in mammals that don’t make vitamin C.”

Scientists knew that the protein called Glut1, found in the membranes of cells throughout the body, is the primary transporter of glucose. They also knew that Glut1 can transport DHA too, thanks to the structural similarities between the two molecules. In biochemical assays, it appeared that the glucose transporter would move glucose and DHA interchangeably.

But, in the new study, Taylor’s group made a surprising discovery: The Glut1 on human red blood cells strongly favors DHA over glucose.
In fact, the human blood cells are known to carry more Glut1 than any other cell type, harboring more than 200,000 molecules on the surface of every cell. Nevertheless, the researchers found, as red blood cells develop in the bone marrow, their transport of glucose declines even as Glut1 numbers skyrocket.

The key to the glucose transporters switch to DHA, they show, is the presence of another membrane protein called stomatin. (Accordingly, in patients with a rare genetic disorder of red cell membrane permeability wherein stomatin is only present at low levels, DHA transport is decreased by 50% while glucose uptake is significantly increased, they report.)

Then, another surprise: The researchers found that the red cells of mice, a species that can produce vitamin C, don’t carry Glut1 on their red blood cells at all. They carry Glut4 instead.
They suspected that the differences in human red blood cells might be linked to our inability to synthesize the reduced form of DHA, vitamin C, from glucose. In fact, they confirmed Glut1 expression on human, guinea pig and fruit bat red blood cells, but not on any other mammalian red cells tested, including rabbit, rat, cat, dog and chinchilla.

Next, they took a closer look at primates. Primates belonging to the Haplorrhini suborder (including prosimian tarsiers, new world monkeys, old world monkeys, humans and apes) have lost the ability to synthesize vitamin C, whereas primates in the Strepsirrhini suborder (including lemurs) are reportedly able to produce this vitamin, Taylor explained.

Notably, they detected Glut1 on all tested red blood cells of primates within the higher primate group, including long-tailed macaques, rhesus monkeys, baboons and magot monkeys. In marked contrast, Glut1 was not detected on lemur red blood cells. Moreover, they report, although DHA uptake in human and magot red cells was similar, the level of transport in cells from three different lemur species was less than 10% of that detected in higher primates.

“Red blood cell-specific Glut1 expression and DHA transport are specific traits of the few vitamin C-deficient mammalian species, encompassing only higher primates, guinea pigs and fruit bats,” the researchers concluded. “Indeed, the red cells of adult mice do not harbor Glut1 and do not transport DHA. Rather, Glut4 is expressed on their cells. Thus, the concomitant induction of Glut1 and stomatin during red blood cell differentiation constitutes a compensatory mechanism in mammals that are unable to synthesize the essential ascorbic acid metabolite,” otherwise known as vitamin C.
 
Found this:
_http://www.rawpaleodietforum.com/infonews-items/vitamin-c-and-carnivorism/

Vitamin C is needed to hydroxylate the amino acids lysine and proline into hydroxylysine and hydroxyproline- connective tissue. That is why scurvy is characterized by a degeneration of connective tissue. However, unknown to most, red meat already contains hydroxylysine and hydroxyproline which is absorbed into the bloodstream when eaten. Thus, less vitamin C is needed to hydroxylate proline and lysine, because they are already present in the blood in the hydroxylated state.

However, one might ask about the role vitamin C plays in antioxidant function. Sure, a purely carnivorous diet will prevent scurvy, but will it replace the other biochemical functions of vitamin C? While those who regularly consume liver and brains do not need to concern themselves too much here, what about those carnivores who consume primarily muscle meat and eggs? Sure, they may be free from scurvy, but are there some other unseen health effects, such as excessive free radical damage from lack of vitamin C?

First of all, a ketogenic metabolism produces less free radicals than a carbohydrate-burning metabolism. Secondly, there are numerous other substances, endogenous and dietary, that act as antioxidants present on a purely carnivorous diet. But what if this is insufficient? Should meat and eggers be worried?

Fortunately, the answer no. And the answer may lie in uric acid.

Uric acid is derived from purines in meat. They are the final metabolic end-product of purine compounds. This is because the genes encoding for the production of the enzyme uricase, needed to break down uric acid, have been absent from primate DNA for millions of years.

The thing that makes ascorbate as a molecule useful is the property of being a strong electron donor. Uric acid is also a strong electron donor (1). In fact, it may even be a better electron donor than vitamin C (2). Because of this, uric acid is a powerful antioxidant, similar to vitamin C. Thus, it follows that the loss of the enzyme uricase and the consequent increase in blood levels of uric acid in primates has probably provided a substitute for ascorbate in certain biochemical functions, including antioxidant activity.

Since meat is rich in purines, uric acid is inevitably abundant in the bloodstream of someone who consumes a large amount of muscle meat and organ products. Conclusion: Even if a human carnivore does not consume vitamin C-containing animal products, a purely carnivorous diet is still sufficient to produce the biochemical functions that vitamin C is normally responsible for.


_http://askesisphilosophyandcarnivorism.blogspot.com/2007/10/uric-acid-and-vitamin-c.html (link no longer exists but is cached in Google.)
 
Another post from the same forum:

I think the point is that the end product that Vitamin C is most important for is already in meat so it's redundant and unnecessary. It's like how you can either get Vitamin A directly from meat, or you can get the precursor carotenoids in fruits and vegetables and then put it together in your body.

Interesting aside about Vitamin C:

Among the animals that have lost the ability to synthesise vitamin C are simians (specifically the suborder haplorrhini), guinea pigs, a number of species of passerine birds (but not all of them), and in apparently many major families of bats and perhaps all of them. Humans have no enzymatic capability to manufacture vitamin C. The cause of this phenomenon is that the last enzyme in the synthesis process, L-gulonolactone oxidase, cannot be made by the listed animals because the gene for this enzyme, Pseudogene ?GULO, is defective.[24] The mutation has not been lethal because vitamin C is abundant in their food sources. It has been found that species with this mutation (including humans) have adapted a vitamin C recycling mechanism to compensate.[25] (Wikipedia)
 
Yeah, compared to plant sources from the same webpage, it is really very low, but it is bio available and super nutritious. Most plant-based sources are inflammatory for me and a lot of people. I would stock on vitamin C just in case though.

If you'd like information on what different Native American tribes used for colds (which is where the vitamin C plants come into play) I have a book that I can go through and post info from in another thread if you'd like it.

The book is called: "Native American Ethnobotany" by Daniel E. Moerman
 
Thanks for sharing all of this, it's very interesting!

Psyche said:
This particular whale was famous for its high content of vitamin C and I wonder why...

From _http://www.dfo-mpo.gc.ca/science/publications/uww-msm/articles/beluga-eng.htm :

It has been shown only recently that belugas are subject to a seasonal skin moult. Belugas have a very thick skin that is at least 10 times thicker than that of dolphins and 100 times thicker than that of terrestrial mammals. Their skin appears to be a very dynamic organ used for insulation, storage of high quantities of vitamin C and, possibly, protection from the abrasion caused by contact with ice. The removal of dead skin and the rapid growth of new skin cells take place when the belugas occupy the warm estuaries. In the early summer, whales in the estuary engage in activities that are directly related to changes in their skin. Individuals roll on the muddy or rocky bottoms at the mouth of river channels, which have strong currents. All age classes engage in this behaviour. This may be a particular feature of Hudson Bay belugas. It is not clear that the moult is as seasonal in the St. Lawrence Estuary.

So I think that their skin is rich in this vitamin probably because vitamin C plays a big role in skin protection and regeneration (as is also the case in humans).
 
Psyche said:
Scientists knew that the protein called Glut1, found in the membranes of cells throughout the body, is the primary transporter of glucose. They also knew that Glut1 can transport DHA too, thanks to the structural similarities between the two molecules. In biochemical assays, it appeared that the glucose transporter would move glucose and DHA interchangeably.

Found a more simple version of the above:

_http://members.upnaway.com/~poliowa/How%20Vitamin%20C%20works.html

Glucose, from carbohydrate foods leaves the gut soon after and this stimulates insulin release to prepare body cells for glucose and energy production. Fat and water soluble vitamins leave the gut next. Vit C is a water soluble vitamin so is absorbed at this point. It also uses the same receptors as glucose to enter the cell membrane. So if we have eaten a lot of simple sugars, as in sweets, cool drink etc, less Vit C can be absorbed because the receptors are already in use. [...]

Vit C is required for many chemical reactions in the body, from carnitine and sperm production to immune function in dealing with colds, cancer etc In 1935 Dr Klenner reports successfully curing polio with 80 Gm of Vit C per day.

Dr Simone speaking on "Augmentation of Oncology Care" at the 2nd World Conference of Nutrition and Vitamin Therapy in San Fran 2000, told how a high dose of Vit C deprives quickly dividing cells of the necessary oxygen for growth by its antioxidant properties. Cancer cells and also viruses and bacteria, that depend on getting extra glucose to promote cell division, can be flooded by excess Vit C which uses the same receptor sites to enter the cell in competition with glucose. The extra Vit C shuts down the oxidative energy reaction in cancer cells, inhibiting protein kinase C which increases cell division and proliferation. This disables oncogene expression and increases the body’s inhibitory growth factor.

The article is mixed in data, but it the glucose Vs vitamin C is interesting and why eating lots of carbs feed cancer cells and other fast dividing cells like viruses etc.
 

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