The Vegetarian Myth

[Gaby]

The thing that makes ascorbate as a molecule useful is the property of being a strong electron donor. Uric acid is also a strong electron donor (1). In fact, it may even be a better electron donor than vitamin C (2). Because of this, uric acid is a powerful antioxidant, similar to vitamin C. Thus, it follows that the loss of the enzyme uricase and the consequent increase in blood levels of uric acid in primates has probably provided a substitute for ascorbate in certain biochemical functions, including antioxidant activity.

It seems to be the case:

_http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uric_acid

In humans and higher primates, uric acid is the final oxidation (breakdown) product of purine metabolism and is excreted in urine. In most other mammals, the enzyme uricase further oxidizes uric acid to allantoin.[8] The loss of uricase in higher primates parallels the similar loss of the ability to synthesize ascorbic acid, leading to the suggestion that urate may partially substitute for ascorbate in such species.[9] Both uric acid and ascorbic acid are strong reducing agents (electron donors) and potent antioxidants. In humans, over half the antioxidant capacity of blood plasma comes from uric acid.[10] The Dalmatian dog has a genetic defect in uric acid uptake by the liver and kidneys, resulting in decreased conversion to allantoin, so this breed excretes uric acid, and not allantoin, in the urine.[11]

Uric acid is created when the body breaks down purine nucleotides. Purines are found in high concentration in meat and meat products, especially internal organs such as liver and kidney.

 

[Approaching Infinity]

Yeah, compared to plant sources from the same webpage, it is really very low, but it is bio available and super nutritious. Most plant-based sources are inflammatory for me and a lot of people. I would stock on vitamin C just in case though.

I'm trying to remember the name of the documentary I saw. It must have been one of the BBC ones. This particular whale was famous for its high content of vitamin C and I wonder why... I just saw Laura's post. I'm pretty sure it was the skin of this whale:

Vitamin C can be found in a variety of traditional Eskimo/Inuit staples, including the skin of beluga whales (known as muktuk), which is said to contain as much vitamin C as oranges.

There's also the bit in Deep Nutrition where they talk about how tribes in the Yukon Territory in Canada prevented scurvy by dividing up moose adrenal glands. (p. 6)

 

[mcb]

My observation is that the only ones who do NOT do better are those who are not doing it right and have not given it time to help their body switch operating systems.

Yes, I do expect that it is a matter of time. Actually, I didn't phrase my original statement very well. For example, while I am not feeling especially good, I am certainly feeling better than I did eight months ago. The lingering issues are chronic ones, some of which I have had all my life and some of which represent damage caused by medical treatments, and it is not surprising that they would not all clear up in the span of a few months. But on the other hand, at least one problem that I have had pretty much all my life -- hypoglycemia -- seems to be gone. It disappeared in a matter of days after lowering carbs!

So it is a matter of persisting, and continuing to find ways to improve nutrition, and to experiment with supplements that might help with the congenital problems. I am quite satisfied with the results so far and I am confident that there will be more improvement.

 

[Laura]

For example, while I am not feeling especially good, I am certainly feeling better than I did eight months ago. The lingering issues are chronic ones, some of which I have had all my life and some of which represent damage caused by medical treatments, and it is not surprising that they would not all clear up in the span of a few months. But on the other hand, at least one problem that I have had pretty much all my life -- hypoglycemia -- seems to be gone. It disappeared in a matter of days after lowering carbs!

So it is a matter of persisting, and continuing to find ways to improve nutrition, and to experiment with supplements that might help with the congenital problems. I am quite satisfied with the results so far and I am confident that there will be more improvement.

Yes, indeed. I'm over three years working on it, and only this past year with the reduced carbs, high meat/fat, and this has made the most improvement.

One thing: I have consistently taken NAC and plenty of Vitamin C for all this time and I think that really helps with the detoxing. The other two things that I take rather often are fish oil and magnesium.

I notice that now my legs feel lighter than they ever have and walking up the stairs is no longer a chore like it used to be. That's pretty huge for me.

 

[Chacara]

May I ask you about how much of Vit C you take daily? I'm still breastfeeding, but I think Vit C can be OK in my case. I know that its dosage is very individual. But how much, you think, I could start with? As to other supplements, I'm concerned about trying them before stopping breastfeeding.

 

[Laura]

May I ask you about how much of Vit C you take daily? I'm still breastfeeding, but I think Vit C can be OK in my case. I know that its dosage is very individual. But how much, you think, I could start with? As to other supplements, I'm concerned about trying them before stopping breastfeeding.

If it were me in your situation, I would be taking at least a gram a day and see how baby likes that. If there is no upset in the milk, then I would up it to 2 grams, wait and see, then increase incrementally. But, that's just what I would do.

 

[Chacara]

Thank you for the advice! It sounds reasonable! I'll try it and then let you know. I'm taking actually Vitrum Prenatal Forte containing 120 mg of Vit C per tab, so I'll add about 900 mg daily.

 

[dugdeep]

I'm just catching up on the discussion here (been neglecting the forum as of late ) and am finding the discussion on vitamin C to be fascinating! Especially the idea that uric acid actually takes on the role of vitamin C in mammals who aren't able to produce it. One thing I was wondering, though - what about vitamin C's function in immunity? I've been hunting around a bit and found that, surprisingly, researchers don't really know the mechanism for why vit. C seems to boost immunity.

There is speculation (see here - http://www.ltdk.helsinki.fi/users/hemila/immunity/) that vit. C acts as an antioxidant which protects the host cells against oxidative stress created during an infection, both from the infection itself and from the defense mounted by the immune system (immune cells called phagocytes release oxidizing compounds in order to kill viruses and bacteria, but sometimes this can be harmful to the host cells themselves). Perhaps uric acid can pitch in and act as this antioxidant too. Maybe when we have a cold we should be loading up on raw red meat instead of OJ! Steak tartar anyone?

It's also thought that since vit. C concentrations in phagocytes and lymphocytes (immune cells) are higher than in plasma levels, the vitamin may have a specific function in those cells. This may be something uric acid can't pinch hit for but there's not enough data to say for sure.

I also find it hilarious that, despite the fact that vitamin C competes with glucose for uptake, mainstream medicine will always give people "cough syrup" when they're sick. Talk about a bone-headed idea. When you're at your weakest and in greatest need of vitamin C you load up on the one thing that ensures you're not going to take as much of it in - sugar

Dugdeep was also sharing awhile ago how he thought you needed less vitamin C in a low carb diet. Perhaps when you don't have all that glucose to compete with the vitamin C molecule intake into your body, you need less vitamin C. It was something among these lines. It made perfect sense! Vitamin C is structurally similar to glucose.

Yeah, I can't remember if I was quoting or speculating, but it does make sense. Since, on a low-carb diet, you're not taking in nearly as much carbohydrate, you're going to get a lot more vitamin C since there's not as much glucose to compete for uptake. From personal experience, I found my bowel tolerance for vit. C reduced big-time once I cut the carbs. I was taking 5g or more at a time while on carbs, now I'll get a gurgly stomach at 3g (last I checked).

 

[curious_richard]

Do infection cells require glucose for rapid reproduction? If so, maybe the ascorbic acid competes with glucose receptors in those cells and reduces the ability of reproduction?

If so, this sounds like it would be consistent with Pauling's observations that high dosages of ascorbic acid were beneficial in fighting cancer, which seems to be heavily dependent on glucose (for anaerobic energy).

 

[whitecoast]

Do infection cells require glucose for rapid reproduction? If so, maybe the ascorbic acid competes with glucose receptors in those cells and reduces the ability of reproduction?

If so, this sounds like it would be consistent with Pauling's observations that high dosages of ascorbic acid were beneficial in fighting cancer, which seems to be heavily dependent on glucose (for anaerobic energy).

That would make sense. I think the most influential factor in helping combat infectious agents would be to reduce glucose intake, and then up the ascorbic acid if you've already done that, since high-carb intake is the most debilitating part of that equation for most people. OSIT.

 

[Laura]

Yeah, I can't remember if I was quoting or speculating, but it does make sense. Since, on a low-carb diet, you're not taking in nearly as much carbohydrate, you're going to get a lot more vitamin C since there's not as much glucose to compete for uptake. From personal experience, I found my bowel tolerance for vit. C reduced big-time once I cut the carbs. I was taking 5g or more at a time while on carbs, now I'll get a gurgly stomach at 3g (last I checked).

Just want to chime in here "ME TOO!" For awhile there, we were using the bowel tolerance to sort of gauge how much toxicity was present, how sick a person was, etc. We must be a LOT better because none of us can tolerate loads of vitamin C anymore!

 

[Ben]

On this subject - I ordered some ascorbic acid and ended up with loads of calcium ascorbate, from what I have read it's well absorbed and should be fine. There is some kind of buffering effect from the calcium so in other words, the bowel tolerance thing is not going to work anymore. Do I have this correct?

 

[Danse la vie]

Yeah, I can't remember if I was quoting or speculating, but it does make sense. Since, on a low-carb diet, you're not taking in nearly as much carbohydrate, you're going to get a lot more vitamin C since there's not as much glucose to compete for uptake. From personal experience, I found my bowel tolerance for vit. C reduced big-time once I cut the carbs. I was taking 5g or more at a time while on carbs, now I'll get a gurgly stomach at 3g (last I checked).

Just want to chime in here "ME TOO!" For awhile there, we were using the bowel tolerance to sort of gauge how much toxicity was present, how sick a person was, etc. We must be a LOT better because none of us can tolerate loads of vitamin C anymore!

Oh ! I also wanted to ask about this asap, and didn't come to yet.
I was taking 3 or 5 grams a day, and from the beginning of the fat diet I could cut most carbs easily without missing this food, it went very well. I also noticed I was able to swallow the C with only lemon in the water, which would have been too acidic for me before.

But then I got very bad Lyme infected mosquito bites end of June, and I upped the C due to the huge reaction of my body tissues. But it seems it was a very bad idea, as my sphincters got spasms and my whole belly got very swollen and hard. The spasms all along the GI tract created constipation. I read on the forum and understood the advice was given to some to up the C in case of constipation... Oh it got way worse with my belly.
I have completely stopped the C because even a little bit of powder on the tip of a spoon gives me spasms. Is it normal ??
I took 45 g a day when I was dying of scurvey some years ago, although I would have needed more, but I was unable to swallow more acidity/mixed carbs of the shake. I just find it hard to imagine that my body refuses it now. Can it be, or have I missed something big ?

Danse la vie

 

[Danse la vie]

Sorry, I should have added what I also wondered :
Could it be that the C has become toxic, are there differences now (years ago I read there was none, all powders were produced in China, be they for animals or humans) ? I bought mine at the pharmacy...
Or is there another form that I should test ?

 

[Laura]

Sorry, I should have added what I also wondered :
Could it be that the C has become toxic, are there differences now (years ago I read there was none, all powders were produced in China, be they for animals or humans) ? I bought mine at the pharmacy...
Or is there another form that I should test ?

Dunno. But, my suggestion to you is this: if you live in France, you really need to be careful about what you take/do and what you talk about on this forum. If you haven't read our disclaimer for French citizens, please do so and take it under advisement. Nothing on this forum should be construed as advice, medical or otherwise, even though we have a number of doctors, nurses, psychologists, neuroscientists, chemists, pharmacists, and other academic professionals onboard. What we present is research and share experiences. What anyone does with any of this material is up to them, but we strongly urge people to consult their own doctors before undertaking any dietary changes or adding supplements to their diet.

Now, regarding your question above: if it was me, and I had a bad experience taking anything, I would stop taking it. I had a similar result to what you describe using a highly recommended colon cleansing product. It turned out to be loaded with psyllium husks and I just can't tolerate seeds of any kind.