Traits of Confident People

[bjorb]

Hi sedenion

Love yourself can also be translated to being able to be comfortable with yourself.

If people can't it is difficult for them to look beyond their own suffering.

You have to heal yourself first to become capable of loving anything more than yourself.

Only than can we sincerely start to love others. And ourselves ofcourse.


I think the book mentioned is a good way of getting to know yourself better :)

 

[Adaryn]

As i said before, i don't know what "love" mean...

Like most people, I'd say.

To quote Diane Ackerman:

When I set a glass prism on a windowsill and allow the sun to flood through it, a spectrum of colors dances on the floor. What we call “white” is a rainbow of colored rays packed into a small space. The prism sets them free. Love is the white light of emotion. It includes many feelings which, out of laziness and confusion, we crowd into one simple word. … Everyone admits that love is wonderful and necessary, yet no one can agree on what it is. …

Love. What a small word we use for an idea so immense and powerful it has altered the flow of history, calmed monsters, kindled works of art, cheered the forlorn, turned tough guys to mush, consoled the enslaved, driven strong women mad, glorified the humble, fueled national scandals, bankrupted robber barons, and made mincemeat of kings. … the Sanskrit lubhyati (“he desires”) [is the root of our word love]. … Love is an ancient delirium, a desire older than civilization, with taproots stretching deep into dark and mysterious days.

We use the word love in such a sloppy way that it can mean almost nothing or absolutely everything. … It is a universally understood motive for crime. “Ah, he was in love,” we sigh, “well, that explains it.” In fact, in some European and South American countries, even murder is forgivable if it was “a crime of passion.” Love, like truth, is the unassailable defense.

You could maybe replace the word "love" with the fact of having an aim in life, something higher than just living for your own contentment and self-gratification. It doesn't need to be something 'grandiose' like 'changing the world'. It could be something as 'simple' as learning about life, about yourself, learning how to relate to others better, how to care about others better. Or finding a field of knowledge that really interests you, and learn all you can about it. (See Ark's quote in Marina9's reply)

If i think about "love myself" this mean either narcissism or attachment to myself... so yes, i "take care of myself" as you see, i am not dead and not totaly depressive, so i keep some self-care functions, and i don't have lack of narcissism despite a very poor self-esteem (paradoxical ? welcome in my world)....

That may sound paradoxical, but in fact it is not. Poor self-esteem and narcissicism (which can manifest as seeing oneself as above others and better than all the rest) are both sides of the same coins. It's a trait which is common to most narcissistically wounded people. You might want to check books dealing with the topic of narcissistic upbringing and the wounds it creates, if you're interested: http://cassiopaea.org/forum/index.php/topic,16460.msg141631.html#msg141631 (see the "big five" psychology books)

fortunately (or not ?), some big arrogance is lying inside me.

Recognizing it is a step in the right direction :) If you want to change it, that is.

 

[Seamus]

In regards to the 40% nurture part, Frankenstein's book about psychopathy is extremely useful...

Do you mean Victor Frankl's book? Sorry I'm confused...

http://cassiopaea.org/forum/index.php/topic,41416.msg642996.html#msg642996
[quote author=Laura]
"Psychopathy" by Carl (Karl) Frankenstein. Quite a fascinating read since it gives a lot of clues as to where Lobacewski's ideas came from (that type of school/inquiry/theorizing). There were obviously quite a few anti-Freudian types working on the problem back in the day but their work has been almost completely sidelined because of their "genetics is important" stance.

Alongside of psychopathy he must, naturally, discuss disorders that develop in people who are not essentially psychopathic and it sure gives one a lot of food for thought.

You can read his works made available on this site:
http://en.carl-frankenstein.com/HTMLs/page_691.aspx?c0=419&bsp=3

[/quote]

Thanks! Missed that thread...

 

[sedenion]

Ok, this would be my last reply on this topic about myself (because despite the appearance, i tolerate moderatly that people focus on me: little yes, with humor and lightness, but not too much).

You could maybe replace the word "love" with the fact of having an aim in life, something higher than just living for your own contentment and self-gratification.

You say that, to a guy that precisely avoided any higher aim to prevent itself to have too much pressure, to avoid the fear of "fail", to avoid any responsability...

It doesn't need to be something 'grandiose' like 'changing the world'.

This is a good idea however, but i forgot my keys in paradise...

It could be something as 'simple' as learning about life, about yourself

Oh, ok ... you call that an "aim" ... i call that a way to pass time while waiting the death... but ok, let's call that an aim...

learning how to relate to others better, how to care about others better.

Ho please no, don't tell me to be altruist... too much pressure.

Or finding a field of knowledge that really interests you, and learn all you can about it.

No... a tourist, i only can be a tourist. I must keep a goal that do not require any real investment...

That may sound paradoxical, but in fact it is not. Poor self-esteem and narcissicism (which can manifest as seeing oneself as above others and better than all the rest) are both sides of the same coins.

Yes, but this is not my case... by narcissism i mean: i don't hate myself...

It's a trait which is common to most narcissistically wounded people. You might want to check books dealing with the topic of narcissistic upbringing and the wounds it creates, if you're interested: http://cassiopaea.org/forum/index.php/topic,16460.msg141631.html#msg141631 (see the "big five" psychology books)

stops the books, thanks :) i am pretty aware of what i am and all my problems, i can obviously talking about me better than anyone, since i live with me 24/24h, and i have the particularity (contrary to the average people) to have very few secrets for me (especially my defects)... No one can efficiently help or advice me. I am the only one that have the keys to help myself. This is why all this kind of conversation is useless with me EXCEPT, if that help other ones to understand some things (or not doing what i do)

Recognizing it is a step in the right direction :) If you want to change it, that is.

I don't want to change it, this is partly what make me keep on... i probably learned to walk because the first fall was an outrage to me "What ?! I fell ? f*** gravity !! NO WAY !! GO F*** YOURSELF, GRAVITY !!" (it is what i conclude if i listen my mother about this tragical episod of my life... ) i probably need to retrieve and full develop this cardinal quality.

 

[whitecoast]

Thanks for posting the quiz Laura. I took the long version and was surprised by a number of the scores. Like DBZ mentioned, I have trouble with these tests often as so many of the answers can be dependent upon the situation or environment, ie. I'm a different person at work than in social situations. This is particularly true of the extraversion scale, which I think my be lower here than reflects how I present myself in some situations.

That said, the neuroticism score is really concerning and clearly the area I need to work at most.

I think there's also a problem with the general broad trait measurements (openess, conscientiousness, etc.), since one can score off the charts for anxiety and have extremely low anger, depression, self-consciousness, etc. That would be averaged to a low average Neuroticism score, in spite of the fact that you jump out of your skin at the slightest provocation.

Then there's the obvious objection that we don't see ourselves as others see us. Doesn't mean the test is useless, but maybe that it needs to be contextualized with other feedback (like how Obyvatel described). I.e. how do others you spend a lot of time with see your extraversion or neuroticism?

Here are my own scores.

EXTRAVERSION 47
..Friendliness 45
..Gregariousness 90
..Assertiveness 10
..Activity Level 18
..Excitement-Seeking 37
..Cheerfulness 81
Your score on Extraversion is average. {Introversion has a strong genetic component in me. Gregariousness is something I've been working on for awhile: being more open to speaking with and learning from others and strangers. Happy with the results, although activity level could use a boost.}

AGREEABLENESS 96
..Trust 85
..Morality 97
..Altruism 73
..Cooperation 91
..Modesty 88
..Sympathy 64
Your high level of Agreeableness indicates a strong interest in others' needs and well-being. You are pleasant, sympathetic, and cooperative. {More or less what I expected. The clinch is I don't spend as much time actively pursuing opportunities to help others as I could, although when asked I love to help out when my energy/stress levels are willing. It seems like a lot of these personality traits have to work in tandem to produce effective pro-social behavior. Something in isolation tells us very little, even when broadened slightly under the "general traits" (see above).}

CONSCIENTIOUSNESS 53
..Self-Efficacy 22
..Orderliness 63
..Dutifulness 75
..Achievement-Striving 48
..Self-Discipline 11
..Cautiousness 93
Your score on Conscientiousness is average. This means you are reasonably reliable, organized, and self-controlled. {Haha, nope. This is a good example of what I meant above. If you have low self-discipline and self-efficacy, how much use is cautiousness or orderliness or dutifulness if things don't get done? This is a major area that needs work. FWIW I answered more than a few of these questions by imagining myself at work, where I am quite dutiful and accomplished. If I'm on my own my conscientiousness goes down. Another quirk is with orderliness; I am much worse at tolerating the messiness of others than my own.}

NEUROTICISM 38
..Anxiety 64
..Anger 15
..Depression 84
..Self-Consciousness 37
..Immoderation 10
..Vulnerability 28
Your score on Neuroticism is average, indicating that your level of emotional reactivity is typical of the general population. Stressful and frustrating situations are somewhat upsetting to you, but you are generally able to get over these feelings and cope with these situations. {This feels generally accurate in terms of the individual scores, but not the score of the broader category - which should be higher because I know I experience a lot of negative emotions. Anxiety comes up much more generally for me than anger does, which arises often in more specific circumstances. Ditto with depression and self-consciousness.}

OPENNESS 91
..Imagination 60
..Artistic Interests 95
..Emotionality 93
..Adventurousness 76
..Intellect 88
..Liberalism 50
Your score on Openness to Experience is high, indicating you enjoy novelty, variety, and change. You are curious, imaginative, and creative. {Also expected. High adventurous doesn't mean I go bungee jumping or skydiving though - see the anxiety level.}

 

[Laura]

Then there's the obvious objection that we don't see ourselves as others see us. Doesn't mean the test is useless, but maybe that it needs to be contextualized with other feedback (like how Obyvatel described). I.e. how do others you spend a lot of time with see your extraversion or neuroticism?

Good point. What if some of us who know some others were to take the test on that person's behalf answering as they think the other person would based on observation? Would only work for those who actually have interacted IRL, though, I think. I've learned that online personalities are not always stable, to understate the matter.

 

[Marina9]

Then there's the obvious objection that we don't see ourselves as others see us. Doesn't mean the test is useless, but maybe that it needs to be contextualized with other feedback (like how Obyvatel described). I.e. how do others you spend a lot of time with see your extraversion or neuroticism?

Good point. What if some of us who know some others were to take the test on that person's behalf answering as they think the other person would based on observation? Would only work for those who actually have interacted IRL, though, I think. I've learned that online personalities are not always stable, to understate the matter.

That would be very interesting Laura, or also maybe from what we have shared from the results some of the people who know each other could give feedback? Dunno just a thought. :)

 

[Laura]

I don't want to change it, this is partly what make me keep on... i probably learned to walk because the first fall was an outrage to me "What ?! I fell ? f*** gravity !! NO WAY !! GO F*** YOURSELF, GRAVITY !!" (it is what i conclude if i listen my mother about this tragical episod of my life... ) i probably need to retrieve and full develop this cardinal quality.

At least you try to be honest about it all. That's not a bad thing.

 

[sedenion]

At least you try to be honest about it all. That's not a bad thing.

I met so many people that lie to themselves, letting me thinking "ho shit, what would happen if a day they cross a mirror that tell them really what they are"... that's why i chosen to discover what i am the most honestly i can: i don't like bad surprises.

 

[mariowil7]

From Laura:

Seems to me that such an understanding, in an adult, means that if you don't like those parameters or results, you can make at least SOME changes more to your own liking. You can also re-frame and learn to appreciate what you were born with and how you developed in the sense that it gives you the ability to understand what was not positive and to make efforts to change it. As Gurdjieff was reported to have said:

“It's only with the present that you can repair the past and prepare the future. The future and the past do not exist without the present. The present exists to repair all our mistakes and to prepare the future, that is to say, another life, desirable for you. It is very important for you to feel the present. You must do everything in order to have a present...a different tomorrow depends on the presence of today. It is necessary to practice.”

(G.I. Gurdjieff, “Questions and Responses,” from Gurdjieff - Essays and Reflections on the Man and His Teaching, edited by Jacob Needleman and George Baker)

Speaking about The Present, here is an interesting bit of information about that...

Being Present and Other Articles

About Noticing

I notice that you referred to "noticing" things and then said: "also in practical things", as though these two are separate. What is important here is something Mr Gurdjieff constantly reiterated and which can be summed up as: "Make the Work practical; bring it into the body." So you see that even the act of noticing can remain purely theoretical and a "good idea".

This is a big secret, which many G people have totally missed. I must bring my noticing into my everyday activities, that way I am beginning to learn to work in a "2-centred" way. If I learn to notice in practice, then I will find I am unable to leave things as they are and I will have an organic necessity to change.


All Action Is Doing

All action is doing, whether it be thinking, feeling or sensate. It has a direction, a purpose, a beginning and an end. When there is excessive doing it becomes violence, which is usually destructive.

Juxtaposed with this is being, which has nothing to do with doing. It is a state of consciousness, of integration. I cannot "try" to be, just as I cannot "try" to relax. Learning to relax is the beginning of learning to be.


Being Present

Why is it so difficult to be present? Why is it that when ‘I am present’ I am often busy sensing an arm or a leg, rousing the feelings, thinking about it. Or alternatively I become shy, nervous, afraid, angry or arrogant, which really means that these states or activities are present but I am not actually present.

What is the difficulty, what is the problem? This is a very serious question. It is as though I have got into the habit of pretending, or imagining, or deluding myself that I am present when I know that I am not.

When I AM PRESENT I enter into a state of being that is very special, and yet it is the very thing I was created for. It entails being fully aware of where I am and eventually who I am. This means noticing and taking responsibility for my world and the world around me. Inwardly we know this, but spend our time avoiding it. We need to learn to be present because it is only when I am present that real transformation can happen.

Look again at the Sufi poem ‘Knowing’, it is a document well worth studying. But be careful whilst studying as you might become present and then things might actually happen to you.


Being Present in the Experience

Let’s look at two ways of experiencing things:

In the first one I am not present so It – the automatism – experiences things. It can experience at various levels but only through accident, shocks and through its habitual patterns of thinking, feeling and moving. This is how we experience things most of the time.

It is a fact however that this experiencing can bring about my becoming present. This is the second way of experiencing – when I am present within the experience. I find that there are levels of consciousness within that one experience. My ability to gain access to these levels will depend upon the quality of energies that I have available. These energies of different qualities can be transformed or transmuted through exercises of one sort and another. What is very important to learn is not to waste these valuable energies on trivial experiences or ingrained habit patterns.

Mr Bennett talked about the Present Moment and having the capacity to expand this – to be able in the moment to experience past and future as one, or to experience higher and lower as one. There is a phrase in the Sarmaun recital ‘Knowing’, which indicates that this is the path of transformation: "By His presence alone Man will be transformed".

The only intelligent way to learn about myself and what this comprises is to be present in every situation; to learn to be comfortable, be uncomfortable, be sad, be happy, be angry, be in pain, be trusting, be honest, be kind, be tolerant, be intolerant and everything in between. How can I know myself if I haven’t been present in all the situations that it is possible for me to experience?

It can learn, but in a very limited, restricted way. Learning things through being present is almost limitless and its limits depend more on my strength of being and the energies available.

What is important is that I learn to be present in my body first. It’s rather like being a deep-sea diver: in order to remain on the ocean bed he needs the lead weights to keep him grounded. The body is like the lead weights – it can keep me grounded and through it I can explore the depths of my being.

Real change can only come about when I really know myself in all situations, all levels of consciousness. I can only know myself when I am present. When I know myself thoroughly change comes about. It is as though the depth of knowledge of myself observing myself brings about changes within myself. Perhaps this is what the Sufi’s mean by ‘real knowledge’. We study others in order to see facets of ourselves.


To be able to be present requires:

A strong intent to do it

· An environment which is conducive; although one can learn to have a strong enough presence to do it anywhere

· Stopping inner talking

· Absence of the results of physical tension

· Absence of the results of emotional reactions

· Absence of fixed thinking and daydreaming

· Sensation of the living body

· Focus of the feeling energies through breathing

· Quietening of the fevered mentation and the presence of a stable thought

· A joyous acceptance of the Grace entering

In other words, real presence has all 3 centres in balance, or reasonable balance, and the entry of ‘I’ within. Try to expand the sense of presence outwards from the body once it has become established so that one can look outward from the body and take in the world around, including other presences. This sense of presence can be expanded into the astral and the causal realms so that the ultimate presence has all 4 worlds together, present and in balance.

All this can be achieved by the constant practice of being present in the body.

~Wilkinson, John A. W. ( _http://www.gurdjieff-internet.com/article_details.php?ID=269&W=5 )

About the "the Sarmaun recital ‘Knowing’" or the Sufi poem ‘Knowing’ it is worth to be read...

_https://books.google.com.br/books?id=AOnvG-6uaFUC&pg=PA254&lpg=PA254&dq=By+His+presence+alone+Man+will+be+transformed&source=bl&ots=ctEDmVAclE&sig=CgEfvyFn9cD4lKTcr9zFYOTFd6Y&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwi51tyBuNvQAhVECpAKHQAJD6QQ6AEIHTAA#v=onepage&q&f=false

If it is not visible in the link above, here is an screen-shot of the same...

 

[fabric]

Then there's the obvious objection that we don't see ourselves as others see us. Doesn't mean the test is useless, but maybe that it needs to be contextualized with other feedback (like how Obyvatel described). I.e. how do others you spend a lot of time with see your extraversion or neuroticism?

Good point. What if some of us who know some others were to take the test on that person's behalf answering as they think the other person would based on observation? Would only work for those who actually have interacted IRL, though, I think. I've learned that online personalities are not always stable, to understate the matter.

That would be an interesting experiment methinks, perhaps comparing it to what that person scored themselves. Perhaps parameters that overlap may be said to be a more accurate aspect of the personality? I also think it would work better if others taking the test for someone had interaction over a period of time as that would allow for more situations to have data to draw from when answering on their behalf. I found in the past when taking the Meyer's Brigg's test that I've flipped from INTP to ENTP depending on my mood at the time. So there's definitely some subjectivity involved since it's difficult to objectively see how one is through solely a self view. We can be as honest as possible about but I think there's a fine line between answering 'in the now' vs 'how one would like to be'. I do think this IPIP-NEO is a little better as it breaks out the different facets that are weighted towards the domain rating, so while it may be possible to score high on anxiety but low on everything else and end up with a low neuroticism score, it will highlight an area to examine.

So before taking the test I did a quick 'blink' similar to Obyvatel's earlier in the thread. I came up with:

Extraversion: Low
Agreeableness: Above average
Conscientiousness: Above average
Neuroticism: Average
Openness to experience: High

Let's see how I did....

EXTRAVERSION 74

..Friendliness 91
..Gregariousness 74
..Assertiveness 20
..Activity Level 95
..Excitement-Seeking 50
..Cheerfulness 67

Ok way off there. I was pretty surprised as I don't consider myself to be particularly extraverted, although when looking at the facets that make it, I can sorta of see where they get that. I've always associated extraverted as being someone who loves to talk and be the center of attention, which is defined a little differently here. And I do like my alone time, just don't need all that much of it to 'recharge'. What I did find most interesting was the low score on assertiveness:

Assertiveness. High scorers Assertiveness like to speak out, take charge, and direct the activities of others. They tend to be leaders in groups. Low scorers tend not to talk much and let others control the activities of groups. Your level of assertiveness is low.

I don't normally talk much and would rather have others take control of group activities.

AGREEABLENESS 93

..Trust 17
..Morality 75
..Altruism 93
..Cooperation 84
..Modesty 99
..Sympathy 97

Closer on this one. The low trust score stands out but accurate.

Trust. A person with high trust assumes that most people are fair, honest, and have good intentions. Persons low in trust see others as selfish, devious, and potentially dangerous. Your level of trust is low.

I tend to see most people that I've never known or met for the first time this way. Doesn't mean that I act indecent or impolite with them - but they need to show me that I can trust them by earning it.

CONSCIENTIOUSNESS 96

..Self-Efficacy 85
..Orderliness 92
..Dutifulness 69
..Achievement-Striving 87
..Self-Discipline 96
..Cautiousness 83

This as well - a lower score on dutifulness but also considered high.

Dutifulness. This scale reflects the strength of a person's sense of duty and obligation. Those who score high on this scale have a strong sense of moral obligation. Low scorers find contracts, rules, and regulations overly confining. They are likely to be seen as unreliable or even irresponsible. Your level of dutifulness is high.

Perhaps this is where the lower score comes from. While rules and regulations are useful in certain cases or situations, they can be overly confining even detrimental. Examples that come to mind are bureaucracy or bills like C-16

NEUROTICISM 1

..Anxiety 1
..Anger 1
..Depression 7
..Self-Consciousness 28
..Immoderation 1
..Vulnerability 4

Another surprise. I realized that I was attributing this to neurosis as Freud described it but in this test it is the "tendancy to experience negative feelings." While I do experience them, I try to not let them take over me or sit with them for unusually long times.

OPENNESS 81

..Imagination 3
..Artistic Interests 89
..Emotionality 47
..Adventurousness 89
..Intellect 88
..Liberalism 94

So I think I understood this one correctly. What stands out here is the low score on imagination.

Imagination. To imaginative individuals, the real world is often too plain and ordinary. High scorers on this scale use fantasy as a way of creating a richer, more interesting world. Low scorers are on this scale are more oriented to facts than fantasy. Your level of imagination is low.

Sounds good to me. I'll take facts over fantasy any day. :)

All in all an interesting exercise. It's been quite a while since doing one of these perhaps I'll try the MBTI test again to see if that's changed from when I took it a long while back.

 

[theos]

Here are my results from the long form:

EXTRAVERSION 31
..Friendliness 58
..Gregariousness 39
..Assertiveness 14
..Activity Level 26
..Excitement-Seeking 14
..Cheerfulness 71
Your score on Extraversion is low, indicating you are introverted, reserved, and quiet. You enjoy solitude and solitary activities. Your socializing tends to be restricted to a few close friends.

DOMAIN/Facet Score
AGREEABLENESS 66
..Trust 10
..Morality 52
..Altruism 46
..Cooperation 89
..Modesty 75
..Sympathy 88
Your level of Agreeableness is average, indicating some concern with others' Needs, but, generally, unwillingness to sacrifice yourself for others.


DOMAIN/Facet Score
CONSCIENTIOUSNESS 80
..Self-Efficacy 56
..Orderliness 73
..Dutifulness 66
..Achievement-Striving 47
..Self-Discipline 76
..Cautiousness 95
Your score on Conscientiousness is high. This means you set clear goals and pursue them with determination. People regard you as reliable and hard-working.

DOMAIN/Facet Score
NEUROTICISM 1
..Anxiety 5
..Anger 1
..Depression 5
..Self-Consciousness 22
..Immoderation 21
..Vulnerability 8
Your score on Neuroticism is low, indicating that you are exceptionally calm, composed and unflappable. You do not react with intense emotions, even to situations that most people would describe as stressful.


DOMAIN/Facet Score
OPENNESS 69
..Imagination 52
..Artistic Interests 41
..Emotionality 25
..Adventurousness 71
..Intellect 75
..Liberalism 92
Your score on Openness to Experience is high, indicating you enjoy novelty, variety, and change. You are curious, imaginative, and creative.

I suppose I agree with most of it -- especially the neuroticism bit -- but I can't discount self-bias.

 

[Konstantin]

Here are my results from the short form:

EXTRAVERSION 17
..Friendliness - 7
..Gregariousness 29
..Assertiveness- 44
..Activity Level - 49
..Excitement-Seeking-46
..Cheerfulness - 1
Your score on Extraversion is low, indicating you are introverted, reserved, and quiet. You enjoy solitude and solitary activities. Your socializing tends to be restricted to a few close friends.

AGREEABLENESS 60
..Trust 51
..Morality 81
..Altruism 45
..Cooperation 63
..Modesty 89
..Sympathy 6
Your level of Agreeableness is average, indicating some concern with others' Needs, but, generally, unwillingness to sacrifice yourself for others.

CONSCIENTIOUSNESS 34
..Self-Efficacy 24
..Orderliness 66
..Dutifulness 66
..Achievement-Striving 26
..Self-Discipline 17
..Cautiousness 30
Your score on Conscientiousness is average. This means you are reasonably reliable, organized, and self-controlled.

NEUROTICISM 78
..Anxiety 81
..Anger 60
..Depression 55
..Self-Consciousness 83
..Immoderation 48
..Vulnerability 92
Your score on Neuroticism is high, indicating that you are easily upset, even by what most people consider the normal demands of living. People consider you to be sensitive and emotional.

OPENNESS 26
..Imagination 4
..Artistic Interests 3
..Emotionality 65
..Adventurousness 38
..Intellect 48
..Liberalism 71
Your score on Openness to Experience is low, indicating you like to think in plain and simple terms. Others describe you as down-to-earth, practical, and conservative.

 

[Alada]

It could be something as 'simple' as learning about life, about yourself

Oh, ok ... you call that an "aim" ... i call that a way to pass time while waiting the death... but ok, let's call that an aim...

I think that learning to live life as well as we can is an aim, and a good one at that. I think you’re being disingenuous there, and are fully aware that for anyone to really know themselves requires making 'leaning about life' an aim, consistent application and a very great deal of time.

learning how to relate to others better, how to care about others better.

Ho please no, don't tell me to be altruist... too much pressure.

Or finding a field of knowledge that really interests you, and learn all you can about it.

No... a tourist, i only can be a tourist. I must keep a goal that do not require any real investment...

What if the process of study requires some kind of investment, some form of suffering to make any kind of difference?

Imagine we find ourselves in the form if ice. We can learn in theory that some kind of change for us is possible, that ice can change it’s state and become a liquid and further still, that this liquid can further change state and become a gas. Great! Now we know, but it is only theory. Nothing changes simply by knowing this theory, we remain as we are.

The questions then become: What is required, what conditions ought to be sought, that can create these changes of state? What do we need to find that obviously we do not already possess? What investments need be made in order to 'pay' for it? And so on.

I think it true to say that without any aim or investment, arguments remain only in the realm of theoretical wiseacre, they change nothing. For knowledge to take any effect, it needs must be applied.

 

[sedenion]

I think that learning to live life as well as we can is an aim, and a good one at that. I think you’re being disingenuous there, and are fully aware that for anyone to really know themselves requires making 'leaning about life' an aim, consistent application and a very great deal of time.

This is your value system, how you see things... this is not mine.

What if the process of study requires some kind of investment, some form of suffering to make any kind of difference?

Imagine we find ourselves in the form if ice. We can learn in theory that some kind of change for us is possible, that ice can change it’s state and become a liquid and further still, that this liquid can further change state and become a gas. Great! Now we know, but it is only theory. Nothing changes simply by knowing this theory, we remain as we are.

The questions then become: What is required, what conditions ought to be sought, that can create these changes of state? What do we need to find that obviously we do not already possess? What investments need be made in order to 'pay' for it? And so on.

I think it true to say that without any aim or investment, arguments remain only in the realm of theoretical wiseacre, they change nothing. For knowledge to take any effect, it needs must be applied.

Alada, almost all the time, you advice me with this problem of theory versus appliance... i don't know your life, but It is obvious to me that the advice you give to me, are the advice you should follow yourself. You are not talking to me here, you are talking to yourself. Then, you want to suffer, to know yourself and learn about life... then, leave your job, take some cloth, and go in some poor or desertic place of the world to survive (this is not what i did, this is an extrem example)... Maybe you will learn about hungry, cold, hot, being hopeless, finding strengh inside you, etc... maybe this is what you already did, i don't know, but, it appear to me (maybe i am wrong) that, you does'nt lived the 1/4 i lived in term of crisis, bad experience, unconfortable situation, etc (and i am very far from the worst that can be experienced in the life)... otherwise, you wouldn't place the "work" you can do according some Gurdjieff theory at a so top level, and you would'nt see the "suffering" as a kind of thing to seek like we seek for some strong emotion with a roller coaster... however, maybe i am totally wrong.