Ascorbic acid (vitamin C)

[Gaby]

More info from a press release of Orthomolecular Medicine:

PUTTING THE "C" IN CURE:
Quantity and Frequency are the Keys to Ascorbate Therapy

http://orthomolecular.org/resources/omns/v05n11.shtml

Comment by Andrew W. Saul
Editor-In-Chief, Orthomolecular Medicine News Service

(OMNS, December 15, 2009) What is it about a little left-handed molecule of six carbons, six oxygens, and eight hydrogens that ticks off so many in the medical community? Maybe it's cases like this one: Ray, a health professional I know, had an 11-month old son who was very sick for over a week. No one, and I mean no one, in their family had had any sleep in a long time. They were up night after night with this child, who had a high fever, glazed watery eyes, tons of thick watery mucus and labored breathing. The child would not sleep, and did little else but cry. The baby was under the care of a pediatrician, who, in the infant's eleven months on earth, had already prescribed twelve rounds of some very serious antibiotics. That they clearly were not working was all too apparent to Ray, who out of desperation decided to try something he previously had been taught to not try: bowel tolerance quantities of oral ascorbate. Ray and his wife gave their baby vitamin C about every 15 minutes. As a result, the baby was noticeably improved in a matter of hours, and slept through the night. With frequent doses continuing, the child was completely well in less than 48 hours. Ray calculated that the child had received just over 2,000 mg vitamin C per kilogram body weight per day. This is even more than what vitamin C expert Dr. Frederick Robert Klenner customarily ordered for sick patients. Remarkably, at 20,000 milligrams of vitamin C/day, that baby never had bowel-tolerance loose stools. (1)

With such a little body, you have to marvel at where all that ascorbate was going. Of course, it is the opinion of those who promulgate the US RDA and related nutritional mythology that almost all of that baby's vitamin C went uselessly into the toilet. Ray and his wife would tell you differently. They would say that their sick child soaked it up like a sponge, and then promptly got better. You choose the answer that works for you.

Quantity of Dose

Dr. Frederick Robert Klenner earned his MD from Duke University School of Medicine and was subsequently board certified in diseases of the chest. (2) A working summation of Dr. Klenner's therapeutic use of vitamin C is 350 milligrams vitamin C per kilogram body weight per day (350 mg/kg/day), in divided doses. (3) Since a kilogram is about 2.2 pounds, this translates to:

mg of Vitamin "C" Body Weight Number of Doses Amount per dose
35,000 mg 220 lb 17-18 2,000 mg
18,000 mg 110 lb 18 1,000 mg
9,000 mg 55 lb 18 500 mg
4,500 mg 28 lb 9 500 mg
2,300 mg 14-15 lb 9 250 mg
1,200 mg 7-8 lb 9 130 - 135 mg

Although these quantities may seem high, Dr. Klenner actually used as much as four times as much for serious viral illness, administered by injection. The oral doses listed above are, for the doctor, comparatively moderate.

Frequency of Dose

For those unable to obtain intravenous vitamin C, it is essential to pay special attention to one of the most important aspects of vitamin C therapy: dividing the dosage improves absorption and retention of vitamin C. High oral doses of vitamin C yield higher blood levels of the vitamin, and dividing the oral doses maintains those higher levels. Although initially seeming almost too obvious to mention, these are not self-evident concepts. Many a medical website and government-based dietary recommendation hinge on ignoring them. Hilary Roberts, PhD, writes: "Stressed and even mildly ill people can tolerate 1,000 times more vitamin C, implying a change in biochemistry that was ignored in creating the RDA. In setting the RDA, unsubstantiated risks of taking too much vitamin C have been accorded great importance, whereas the risks of not taking enough have been ignored. Real scientists understand that 'no scientific proof' is a fancy way of saying 'we don't like this idea.'" (4)

And there is ample proof to not like. Vitamin C, in very high doses, has been used to successfully treat several dozen illness (5), with a published, peer-reviewed literature spanning the last 60 years. Therefore, the effectiveness and safety of megadose vitamin C therapy should, by now, be yesterday's news. Yet I never cease to be amazed at the number of persons who remain unaware that vitamin C is the best broad-spectrum antibiotic, antihistamine, antitoxic and antiviral substance there is. Equally surprising is the ease with which some people, most of the medical profession, and virtually all of the media have been convinced that, somehow, vitamin C is not only ineffective but is also downright dangerous.

Bias against Ascorbate Therapy

When you pick up a health or nutrition book and need to know really fast if it is any good or not, just check the index for "Klenner" and three other key names: Cathcart, Stone, and Pauling. Robert F. Cathcart, an orthopedic surgeon, administered huge doses of vitamin C to tens of thousands of patients for decades (6), without generating a single kidney stone. Irwin Stone, the biochemist who first put Linus Pauling onto vitamin C, is the author of The Healing Factor: Vitamin C against Disease. (7) Pauling cites Stone thirteen times in his landmark book How to Live Longer and Feel Better (8), a recommendation if there ever was one. The importance of vitamin C's power against infectious and chronic disease is extraordinary. To me, omitting it is tantamount to deleting Shakespeare from an English Lit course.

Because of such bias, the primary way patients (and through them, their physicians) have been exposed to Dr. Klenner's work has been through Dr. Lendon Smith's 68-page Clinical Guide to the Use of Vitamin C: The Clinical Experiences of Frederick R. Klenner, M.D. (9) Upon discovering this book, one of my undergraduates submitted a paper to another class discussing a substantial number of medical references she had found on vitamin C as a cure for polio. That course's instructor told me privately that the student's work was absurd, and he literally described her as a "dial tone." I recall a nutritional presentation I made to a hospital staff. All was going well until I mentioned using vitamin C as an antibiotic, as Dr. Klenner did. The mood changed quickly. And how many of us have heard this old saw: "If vitamin C was so good, every doctor would be prescribing it!"

Cardiologist Thomas Levy, MD, explains: "I could find no mainstream medical researcher who has performed any clinical studies on any infectious disease with vitamin C doses that approached those used by Klenner. Using a small enough dose of any therapeutic agent will demonstrate little or no effect on an infection or disease process." (10)

Preventive Doses

Dr. Klenner recommended daily preventive doses of 10,000 to 15,000 mg/day. He advised parents to give their children their age in vitamin C grams (1 g = 1,000 mg). That would be 2,000 mg/day for a two year old, 9,000 mg/day for a nine year old, and for older children, a leveling-off at about 10,000 mg/day. As for me, I simply say, "Take enough C to be symptom free, whatever that amount may be." It worked for my family. I raised my children all the way into college and they never had a dose of any antibiotic. Not once.

It is high time for medical professionals to welcome vitamin C megadoses and their power to cure the sick. Cure is by far the best word there is in medicine. It would seem that you cannot spell "cure" without "C." I do not think Dr. Klenner would dispute that.

(Andrew W. Saul taught nutrition, health science and cell biology at the college level, and has won three New York State teacher fellowships. He is the author of Doctor Yourself and Fire Your Doctor! and, with Dr. Abram Hoffer, co-author of Orthomolecular Medicine for Everyone and The Vitamin Cure for Alcoholism. Saul is featured in the documentary film Food Matters.)

References:

(1) Bowel tolerance as an indicator of vitamin C saturation is discussed by Dr. RF Cathcart at http://www.doctoryourself.com/titration.html and http://www.doctoryourself.com/cathcart_thirdface.html

(2) For more about Dr. Klenner's life and work: http://www.doctoryourself.com/klennerbio.html

(3) Klenner FR. The significance of high daily intake of ascorbic acid in preventive medicine, p 51-59, in: A Physician's Handbook on Orthomolecular Medicine, Third Edition, Roger Williams, PhD, ed. Keats, 1979.

(4) Hickey S and Roberts H. Ascorbate: The science of vitamin C. 2004. ISBN 1-4116-0724-4. Morrisville, NC: Lulu.

(5) http://www.doctoryourself.com/vitaminc.html

(6) http://www.doctoryourself.com/biblio_cathcart.html

(7) The complete text of Irwin Stone's book The Healing Factor is posted for free reading at http://vitamincfoundation.org/stone/

(8) Pauling L. How to Live Longer and Feel Better, revised edition, 2006. ISBN-13: 9780870710964. Reviewed at http://www.doctoryourself.com/livelonger.html

(9) The full text of Dr. Frederick R. Klenner's Clinical Guide to the Use of Vitamin C is posted for free reading at http://www.seanet.com/~alexs/ascorbate/198x/smith-lh-clinical_guide_1988.htm

(10) Levy TE. Vitamin C, Infectious Diseases, and Toxins: Curing the Incurable. Livon Books, 2002. ISBN: 1-4010-6963-0 and 978-1401069636

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[Jacques]

Thank you Psyche for that article and for all the articles that you share with us.

Thank you also for all your recommendations.

Greatly appreciated.

 

[Gaby]

Greatly appreciated.

:) My pleasure.

 

[RedFox]

Thanks for this article Psyche, really useful stuff. :)

 

[Adaryn]

A question: I finished my C-complex bottle, and have bought pure vitamin C powder (acid ascorbic) from myprotein.co.uk. Now, I've just read that, given it's only pure acid ascorbic with no bioflavonoid, if you take too much (more than 500 mg in one go) it can become pro-oxydative. Is that true? (asking our expert here ;))
My other question is: can I go on with my routine of taking 8g morning and 4g evening with raspberries + clementines? Is it enough bioflavonoid, or should I supplement it with another source (Supersmart sells different forms of it)?
Thanks :)

 

[Gaby]

A question: I finished my C-complex bottle, and have bought pure vitamin C powder (acid ascorbic) from myprotein.co.uk. Now, I've just read that, given it's only pure acid ascorbic with no bioflavonoid, if you take too much (more than 500 mg in one go) it can become pro-oxydative. Is that true? (asking our expert here ;))

There is some preliminary information about beneficial effects about vitamin C and its oxidative effects: http://www.cassiopaea.org/forum/index.php?topic=13208.msg114982#msg114982 But they're also saying that taking vitamin C orally probably can’t achieve the high blood concentrations necessary to have oxidant effects on arteries. I guess we'll have to see what else pops around.

In any case, the benefits of ascorbic acid are well documented in this thread and else and we've seen amazing results using high doses when they are needed. People using it have had also amazing results for certain dis-eases.

You can experiment changing brands and forms (when you finish your supplements) and see how it goes as well.

My other question is: can I go on with my routine of taking 8g morning and 4g evening with raspberries + clementines? Is it enough bioflavonoid, or should I supplement it with another source (Supersmart sells different forms of it)?
Thanks :)

Buckwheat counts too as a good source of flavonoids. :) I think that is good enough, considering also that you are already taking other supplements. You can also re-distribute throughout the day your total amount of vitamin C that you need. For example, you can take some at lunch as well, decreasing the dose of the morning or evening.

Anyhow, there are those who say that flavonoids might not be that anti-oxidative as thought and its beneficial effects might be due to other mechanisms:

_http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flavonoid

Biological roles

Flavonoids are widely distributed in plants fulfilling many functions.

Flavonoids are the most important pigments for flower coloration producing yellow or red/blue pigmentation in petals. Those colors are a mean to attract pollinator animals.

They also protect plants from attacks by microbes and insects.

The widespread distribution of flavonoids, their variety and their relatively low toxicity compared to other active plant compounds (for instance alkaloids) mean that many animals, including humans, ingest significant quantities in their diet. Flavonoids have been referred to as "nature's biological response modifiers" because of strong experimental evidence of their inherent ability to modify the body's reaction to allergens, viruses, and carcinogens. They show anti-allergic, anti-inflammatory[5] , anti-microbial[6] and anti-cancer activity.

Consumers and food manufacturers have become interested in flavonoids for their medicinal properties, especially their potential role in the prevention of cancers and cardiovascular disease. The beneficial effects of fruit, vegetables, and tea or even red wine have been attributed to flavonoid compounds rather than to known nutrients and vitamins[7].

[edit] Health benefits aside from antioxidant values

In 2007, research conducted at the Linus Pauling Institute and published in Free Radical Biology and Medicine indicates that inside the human body, flavonoids themselves are of little or no direct antioxidant value [8]. Body conditions prove to be unlike controlled test tube conditions, and the flavonoids are poorly absorbed (less than 5%), with most of what is absorbed being quickly metabolized and excreted.

The huge increase in antioxidant capacity of blood seen after the consumption of flavonoid-rich foods is not caused directly by the flavonoids themselves, but most likely is due to increased uric acid levels that result from expelling flavonoids from the body.[9]

Following along the theory that antioxidant capacity is due to uric acid levels, there is this:

_http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uric_acid

In humans and higher primates, uric acid is the final oxidation (breakdown) product of purine metabolism and is excreted in urine. In most other mammals, the enzyme uricase further oxidizes uric acid to allantoin.[8] The loss of uricase in higher primates parallels the similar loss of the ability to synthesize ascorbic acid.[9] Both uric acid and ascorbic acid are strong reducing agents (electron donors) and potent antioxidants. In humans, over half the antioxidant capacity of blood plasma comes from uric acid.[7] [...]

Although uric acid can act as an antioxidant, excess serum accumulation is often associated with cardiovascular disease. It is not known whether this is causative (e.g., by acting as a prooxidant ) or a protective reaction taking advantage of urate's antioxidant properties.[17]

[...] like other strong reducing substances such as ascorbate, uric acid can also act as a prooxidant,[30] particularly at elevated levels. Thus, it is unclear whether elevated levels of uric acid in diseases associated with oxidative stress such as stroke and atherosclerosis are a protective response or a primary cause.[31][32]

For example, some researchers propose that hyperuricemia-induced oxidative stress is a cause of metabolic syndrome.[23][33] On the other hand, plasma uric acid levels correlate with longevity in primates and other mammals.[34] This is presumably a function of urate's antioxidant properties.

 

[vinny]

A question: I finished my C-complex bottle, and have bought pure vitamin C powder (acid ascorbic) from myprotein.co.uk. Now, I've just read that, given it's only pure acid ascorbic with no bioflavonoid, if you take too much (more than 500 mg in one go) it can become pro-oxydative. Is that true? (asking our expert here ;))

There is some preliminary information about beneficial effects about vitamin C and its oxidative effects: http://www.cassiopaea.org/forum/index.php?topic=13208.msg114982#msg114982 But they're also saying that taking vitamin C orally probably can’t achieve the high blood concentrations necessary to have oxidant effects on arteries. I guess we'll have to see what else pops around.

In any case, the benefits of ascorbic acid are well documented in this thread and else and we've seen amazing results using high doses when they are needed. People using it have had also amazing results for certain dis-eases.

I can't find the source, but I'm sure I heard somewhere that Vit C is less effective when taken in isolation, than with food, maybe because it is not digested in the same way? Is there any truth to this? I take my Vit C in powder form that I add to my daily fruit shake, so I guess that's probably fine.

 

[Jacques]

My other question is: can I go on with my routine of taking 8g morning and 4g evening with raspberries + clementines? Is it enough bioflavonoid, or should I supplement it with another source (Supersmart sells different forms of it)?
Thanks :)

Buckwheat counts too as a good source of flavonoids. :) I think that is good enough, considering also that you are already taking other supplements. You can also re-distribute throughout the day your total amount of vitamin C that you need. For example, you can take some at lunch as well, decreasing the dose of the morning or evening.

Hi Luthien,

Have a look at that post and you would see the advantage of taking Vit C in a smaller dose but more often during the day.

 

[Adaryn]

Thanks Psyche for the info. I'll experiment with dosage to see if this new form makes any difference compared to the "buffered" C-complex. I always take it with my shakes anyway. Thanks Bohort, had a look at the article yesterday. I think I'll divide my daily dose in 3, morning, noon and evening. Not forgetting to brush my teeth after that, since vit C is bad for teeth.

 

[Gaby]

I can't find the source, but I'm sure I heard somewhere that Vit C is less effective when taken in isolation, than with food, maybe because it is not digested in the same way? Is there any truth to this? I take my Vit C in powder form that I add to my daily fruit shake, so I guess that's probably fine.

Yeah, that is fine. I do the same, put the powder form in my shake. And then I take a capsule after meals.

Maybe the digestion delays the stomach in dissolving the ascorbate, which is then released over a period of hours. Time released vitamin C contains a carbohydrate which does this very same thing. There is more information on forms of vitamin C and troubleshooting with acidity here: http://orthomolecular.org/resources/omns/v05n10.shtml I meant to put it up somewhere, I'm not sure if I did though. It has some information about the flavonoids too, seems that orthomolecular medicine says that there is not much difference.

http://orthomolecular.org/resources/omns/v05n10.shtml

Generally, supplement tablets that contain bioflavonoids do not have enough to make much difference. For consumers on a budget, the best policy may be to buy vitamin C inexpensively whether or not it also contains bioflavonoids. Citrus fruits, peppers, and a number of other fruits and vegetables contain large quantities of bioflavinoids. This is one more reason to eat right as well as supplement.

 

[Green_Manalishi]

Hi everyone.
In Portugal there is this "supplement" called Cecrisina, which is kind of a dissolving big pill which contains 1g of ascorbic acid. I just remembered that whenever i had flu like symptoms i would take one and magically they would go away. I just wanted to ask if anyone knows if it is the same as the powder you speak about, because this Cecrisina is also available as a powder, but it is not really advertised as supplement, but as something one should use when one has the flu.

 

[Ben]

Hi everyone.
In Portugal there is this "supplement" called Cecrisina, which is kind of a dissolving big pill which contains 1g of ascorbic acid. I just remembered that whenever i had flu like symptoms i would take one and magically they would go away. I just wanted to ask if anyone knows if it is the same as the powder you speak about, because this Cecrisina is also available as a powder, but it is not really advertised as supplement, but as something one should use when one has the flu.

Are the ingredients not included? Most cold and flu remedies I have seen in the UK contain some ascorbic acid but a host of other chemicals, including aspartame, and plenty of sugar.

 

[Green_Manalishi]

Are the ingredients not included? Most cold and flu remedies I have seen in the UK contain some ascorbic acid but a host of other chemicals, including aspartame, and plenty of sugar.

They probably are, but i'm currently not in Portugal to check what are the specific ingredients.

 

[Gertrudes]

A question about ascorbic acid:

I have been taking ascorbic acid since about March last year, when I changed my diet. Over the last 3 and a half months I took vitamin C pills instead, and have also gone through the Ultra Simple diet.
3 days ago I started taking ascorbic acid once again, 5grams in the morning with breakfast (though I thought I was actually taking half of it, I only realized my mistake now!). The side effects weren't pleasent. I have read other members' experiences that too much can cause diarrhea. I didn't have diarrhea, but rather 2 days of bloating and constant gas. Today I decided not to take ascorbic acid, and the symptoms are gone.

I find it odd that this is only happening now, after having gone though the ultra simple diet. Would anyone have ideas on what might be causing this? Is it just stomach sensitivity?

 

[Gaby]

Hi Gertrudes, you probably need less vitamin C now that you did before. Maybe it has to do with the Ultra Simple diet, maybe your body is less stressed by evil foods. Supplements like alpha lipoic acid recycles vitamin C so it can lower your tolerance level of vitamin C. If you were bloated with 5 grams, you can try with 2 grams instead to see how it goes.