External Consideration turns into Internal Consideration

Menna said:
"External considering is based upon an entirely different relationship towards people than internal considering. It is adaptation toward people, to their understanding, to their requirements. By considering externally a man does that which makes life easy for other people and for himself. External considering requires a knowledge of men and an understanding of their tastes and habits and prejudices."

Thank you for this...

This leads me to the questions i need to ask...

So external consideration is understanding another and meeting anothers needs ok that is great and all but when doing this when adapting toward people it is very hard to know when you should external consider (adapt and understand) and when you have to say what you feel or think. What I mean is if you are with someone and they do something that bothers you. Do you tell that person it bothers you? Wouldn't doing that be internal consideration? If you have to adapt and understand people in order to externaly consider them and by telling that person how his or her actions make you feel are you being STS is that internal consideration?

I think you're missing a main point in the above quote: Do that which makes life easier for other people and for himself. If you are being bothered by someone, you can (ideally) choose which way to convey that feeling. You can be rude and insensitive in how you make them aware of your annoyance, or you can be considerate in how you communicate your displeasure. You also need to know, based on the person, how they will take your action. If you absolutely know that that person will see it as rude, you might just choose not to communicate your feelings with them. But, in the future, you may distance yourself from such a person. It can be draining to constantly have to walk around eggshells near someone. If that's the case, I know I would simply choose to disassociate myself from someone like that.
 
Hi All,

External considering isn't the same as being polite, forthcoming or 'diplomatic' - as far as I know. There has to be a direct linkage to your aim(s).

When you practise strategic enclosure, your relations with the 'external' world and with other people come under the aegis of the Work. To my mind this implies you have to actively create space and opportunities for others to develop and change their characters and grow their real personalities, according to their present state of awareness of which you firstly have to try to be aware yourself - mainly from recognising them as (ideally) previous states in your own development. Only in that manner could you try to put someone else on the step of the staircase you are trying to just leave for the next one.

Internal impulses have to be actively transformed into outward behavior that suits the situation and the person - instead of just venting or letting it all hang out... Fwiw.

Have a look at the discussion over here for more details of a real life situation, in stead of just being abstract about it: http://cassiopaea.org/forum/index.php?topic=22424.0
 
[quote author=Palinurus]Internal impulses have to be actively transformed into outward behavior that suits the situation and the person - instead of just venting or letting it all hang out... Fwiw.[/quote]

It’s my understanding that G taught to separate the inner and the outer because it’s impossible to do as you suggest above. Without an understanding of this fact one will only be internally considering even when thinking it’s external.

[quote author=Gurdjieff's Views from the Real World Page 94-96]Outwardly I want today to be polite, but if necessary I can appear angry. Outwardly it must be what is best for her and for me. I must consider. Internal and external considering must be different. In an ordinary man the external attitude is the result of the internal. If she is polite, I am also polite. But these attitudes should be separated.

The work needs nothing external. Only the internal is needed. Externally, one should play a role in everything. Externally a man should be an actor, otherwise he does not answer the requirements of life. One man likes one thing; another, another thing: if you want to be a friend to both and behave in one way, one of them will not like it; if you behave in another way, the other will not like it. You should behave with one as he likes it and with the other as this other likes it. Then your life will be easier.

But inside it must be different: different in relation to the one and the other.

As things are now, especially in our times, every man considers utterly mechanically. We react to everything affecting us from outside. Now we obey orders. She is good, and I am good; she is bad, and I am bad. I am as she wants me to be, I am a puppet. But she too is a mechanical puppet. She also obeys orders mechanically and does what another one wants.

We must cease reacting inside. If someone is rude, we must not react inside. Whoever manages to do this will be more free. It is very difficult.[/quote]

Internal change can only happen with this separation.

emphasis mine
 
Thank you Heimdallr - the bolded and for himself put it into perspective. I take it as don't tell people how they wronged you or how this or that just tell them how you feel and leave it at that.
 
Hi Jerry,

Internal change can only happen with this separation.

I couldn't agree more. Thank you for the relevant quotes from Gurdjieff. Thereby I just realised I didn't explain myself fully nor adequately.

What I was hinting at is what you do after distancing yourself from your initial instant inner reaction to some situation. Then you have to work with what you observe to be your inner reactions and respond as well to the given situation at the same time within the framework of your own path. I wasn't suggesting there has to be a one-on-one relation between the input, the throughput (processing) and the output. But I see now that this could have been misunderstood. Thank you for that.

As for roleplaying, ask any actor of any stature how they manage to find the suitable 'gestures' for projecting (to the audience) what the inner landscape of the character they play might be and you will find that this requires a whole lot of knowledge of the art of acting to be successful. Some actors just cannot do certain roles because of false typecasting if they would. I always took that as an example of the difficulties that arise in practicing strategic enclosure and try to 'act' from that. Hope this explains it a bit more... It's very difficult indeed!
 
Menna said:
Thank you Heimdallr - the bolded and for himself put it into perspective. I take it as don't tell people how they wronged you or how this or that just tell them how you feel and leave it at that.

The thing with external consideration, is you can't I think boil it down to a hard and fast rule. There is no bumper sticker solution. Each situation is going to be different, each person different.

With family or with long time friends, people that know you as you are. For them, it can be externally considerate to be no different externally then you always have been, so you might act grumpy or annoyed or be sarcastic or quiet or angry or whatever it is that they are used to. It is externally considerate not to change anything externally for them (and will make life a whole lot easier for you). But internally you can become different, you act as you always did but you can learn watch yourself, notice how you feel, what is happening inside. The thing is to not let it then become you once again, you have to learn to act it.

With children if you have them, it might be externally considerate to be very angry with them when the need arises. But you choose it. Internally you might be hating every second of it, feeling bad that you are upsetting them, that they will hate you for it. But when you catch your kid doing something that puts them in danger for example, or say behaving very badly toward your partner, then anger can be called for. So inside you are not really angry, are maybe feeling the opposite but you play the role. Again, the thing is then not to become the anger. I think this is what Gurdjieff means by separation.

For others who have never met you, it can be different again. Sometimes, or maybe most of the time as we are, when we feel wronged by others it is only another mechanical part that gets upset, and in turn we react from yet another mechanical part. That is not acting a role then, purely the machine running. I say to someone "good morning" and they are in a bad mood, and sarcastically snap back "oh, is it really" and walk off, I feel wronged. How dare they! My self importance is wounded, my inner child hurt by the rejection of a friendly greeting. External consideration then is to just let it go, smile, walk away or whatever. Who knows what has happened to that person to make them act such a way? They might be an awful person, or they might just have lost a loved one, who can tell. External consideration is to leave them be whatever it is.

Sometimes though, there can be need to express your inner feelings, or when something is truly unjust. The trick is to learn what to do when. There is 'good' there is 'bad' and the specific circumstance that decides which is which. If it is to be an externally considerate action, then it should be conscious, you choose it rather than letting it choose you.

I think it is something that has to grow, we can't do these things all at once, are not equipped or able to correct all of the things we might start to see in ourselves as we are. And indeed, I think Gurdjieff advised his students at first to change nothing, so that there is a period in which to observe. It also heads off a lot of problems that we can create for ourselves trying to fix everything all at once, which is not at all externally considerate when those around you think you've suddenly lost your marbles.

Maybe try being externally considerate with just one person, think about all that that person might require (or not) from you and try to be/do/give/say those things that will 'adapt towards them, to their understanding, to their requirements. That will make life easy for them and for yourself'. It might be easier that way to get a handle on what external consideration is on a small scale for a while and to then expand it up from there, as a suggestion.
 
It is very difficult for me to not identify internally. It is necessary to self remember to prepare the ground to play a role externally without inner identification.

Yesterday, I was excited by a new insight into the relation of faith and hope and approached a very intellectual woman to discuss my new insight. She spoke sharply in response, saying that she was not interested in my idea. I felt surprise and anger at her sharp response. I did not express the anger, but I felt it.

When I feel an emotional response to another’s behavior, I know that I am internally identified. I was external inconsiderate of her, assuming she would be interested. If I were internally unidentified with the new insight into the relation of faith and hope, I would have politely asked if she were interested in discussing the subject, before telling her that I thought faith is being and never in the future, the future is the realm of hope. I was correcting her error. You can see the identification. I forget myself.

Today, I was self remembering, not internally identified, and externally considerate of a man’s words in a discussion group. After the group, I asked him if he would like to discuss the problem he brought up in the group. I listened to him and spoke a few words of hope. This was playing a role of being light, polite, and allowing an opening for him to ask my perspective. He did not, but spoke at length of his problems. Being a listener was my role. I played it well today, in contrast to yesterday’s work. He did not know I was working, that was external consideration. I remember myself.

So, self remembering is a necessary state of being in order not to be internally identified. I must not be internally identified to play a role. This is external consideration. It is not easy to remember one’s self. I must practice (work) over and over until I am transformed or at least begin to be externally considerate more often.

It is impossible to not become internally identified when I do not remember myself. It is impossible to be externally considerate if I am internally identified. I have to start some where and then continue the internal struggle to practice external consideration.

JG Bennett-Talks On Beelzebub’s Tales said:
We need to have the taste of the beginning, of committing ourselves to an action. If we do not have it and we do not bring it into what we do, then we can never do anything: we are carried along, like machines.
 
Heimdallr said:
It can be draining to constantly have to walk around eggshells near someone. If that's the case, I know I would simply choose to disassociate myself from someone like that.

I think I don't understand this phrase, I know its draining yur energy to be near people that you want to be without them.

But whats around eggshells near someone??
 
cubbex said:
Heimdallr said:
It can be draining to constantly have to walk around eggshells near someone. If that's the case, I know I would simply choose to disassociate myself from someone like that.

I think I don't understand this phrase, I know its draining yur energy to be near people that you want to be without them.

But whats around eggshells near someone??

Walking on eggshells means "To watch what you say or do around a certain person because anything might set him or her off."
 
The instantaneous emotional reaction at another person's behavior may be related to what Daniel Goleman calls "emotional contagion" in his book Social Intelligence. The "low road" circuits of the brain (may be analogous to the lower emotional center) react at a much faster speed than the "high road" circuits or executive functions. And if the internal emotional reaction dictates the external behavior, then we are not practicing external consideration but are in internal consideration mode. To practice external consideration, we need the higher cortical circuits that control the executive functions of the brain to engage and thus appraise the situation in a more objective manner. It is said that just naming the emotion one is feeling at the moment has a braking and calming effect on the emotional center. And naming the emotion (eg I am feeling angry) is likely related to the practice of self-remembering - osit.

Here are some paraphrased relevant quotes from the Social Intelligence
[quote author=Social Intelligence]
When someone dumps their toxic feelings on us - explodes in anger or threats, shows disgust or contempt - they activate in us circuitry for those very same distressing emotions. Their act has potent neurological consequences: emotions are contagious. We "catch" strong emotions much as we do a rhinovirus - and so can come down with the emotional equivalent of a cold. ........
We participate in this interpersonal economy whenever a social interaction results in a transfer of feeling - which is virtually always. ....
Emotional contagion exemplifies what can be called the brain's "low road" at work. The low road is circuitry that operates beneath our awareness, automatically and effortlessly, with immense speed.
The "high road", in contrast, runs through neural systems that work more methodically and step by step, with deliberate effort. We are aware of the high road, and it gives us at least some control over our inner life, which the low road denies us.
The low road can be seen as "wet", dripping with emotion, and the high road as relatively "dry", coolly rational. The low road traffics in raw feelings, the high in a considered understanding of what's going on. The low road lets us immediately feel with someone else [instant primal empathy]; the high road can think about what we feel. ... To oversimplify, the low road uses neural circuitry that runs through the amygdala and similar automatic nodes, while the high road sends inputs to the prefrontal cortex, the brain's executive center, which contains our capacity for intentionality - we can think about what's happening to us.
The two roads register information at very different speeds. the low road is faster than it is accurate; the high road, while slower, can help us arrive at a more accurate view of what's going on. The low road is quick and dirty, the high road slow but mindful..... The speed differential between these two systems - the instant emotional one is several times faster in brain time than the more rational one - allows us to make snap decisions that we might later regret or need to justify. By the time the low road has reacted, sometimes all the high road can do is make the best of things.
...............
That first emotional response happens so quickly and spontaneously that as the amygdala triggers its reactions and activates other brain areas, the cortical centers for thinking have not yet even finished analyzing the situation. However, the more involved the ACC and greater the activity in certain prefrontal areas, the more muted the amygdala become during reappraisal. When the high road speaks up, it takes away the low road's microphone.
The emerging data on reappraisal offer a corrective to a widespread misimpression: that we have virtually no choice in our mental life because so much of what we think, feel and do rushes by automatically, in a "blink". Reappraisal alters our emotional response. When we do it intentionally, we gain conscious control of our emotions.
Even just naming for ourselves the emotions we feel can calm the amygdala . .......The high road to choice also means that we are free to respond as we like, even to unwanted contagion.
........................
Darwin saw every emotion as a predisposition to act in a unique way: fear, to freeze or flee; anger, to fight; joy, to embrace; and so on. Brain imaging studies now show that at the neural level he was right. To feel any emotion stirs the related urge to act.
The low road makes that feeling-action link interpersonal. For instance, when we see someone expressing fear - even if only in the way they move or hold their body - our own brain activates the circuitry for fear. Along with this instantaneous contagion, the brain areas that prepare for fearful actions also activate. And so with each emotion - anger, joy, sadness and so on. Emotional contagion does more than than merely spread feelings - it automatically prepares the brain for appropriate action.
Nature's rule of thumb holds that a biological system should use the minimal amount of energy. Here the brain achieves that efficiency by firing the same neurons while both perceiving and performing an action. That economizing repeats across brains.
[/quote]

What may be worth noting is that the initial instantaneous internal emotional response to someone's behavior may be unavoidable. Naming the emotional reaction by engaging the cortical functions may be the the first step towards regaining internal control over the situation. From there, one can go to objectively appraising the situation and choosing the appropriate response - thus moving to external consideration.
 
obyvatel said:
To practice external consideration, we need the higher cortical circuits that control the executive functions of the brain to engage and thus appraise the situation in a more objective manner. It is said that just naming the emotion one is feeling at the moment has a braking and calming effect on the emotional center. And naming the emotion (eg I am feeling angry) is likely related to the practice of self-remembering - osit.

……..

What may be worth noting is that the initial instantaneous internal emotional response to someone's behavior may be unavoidable. Naming the emotional reaction by engaging the cortical functions may be the the first step towards regaining internal control over the situation. From there, one can go to objectively appraising the situation and choosing the appropriate response - thus moving to external consideration.

Indeed; to practice self remembering, the abstract, naming function must be engaged. However, we are three brained beings. We have thinking, sensing, and feeling functions. To be in a state of self remembering all three functions must be simultaneously engaged prior to the event.

It is my experience, that instantaneous internal emotional response is avoidable given I am in a state of self remembering. I feel my feet in my boots, the intellect is aware, and I feel the internal state of emotion. The neural circuits are connected and lit up. In this state, I do not react from the memory association of my past. I am present in the moment, and react appropriately to the situation internally and externally. I am externally considerate.

Yes, naming the emotional reaction is a first step of observing the machine. This may go on for quiet some time, maybe the rest of my life. In my case, I still observe and name the emotional reaction when I have fallen asleep and am internally considering. This is effective at controlling external behavior after the fact of internal considering. I don’t think we can say appropriate external behavior is necessarily the result of external consideration. It is often automatic and appropriate, as understood by behaviorists and my parents, in spite of the seething interior.

However, I have experienced many events where I have not automatically engaged the emotional center from Itoklanz (Gurdjieff) or my programming, always when I am a three brained being in a state of self remembering. Nor have I experienced external consideration as the result of the sequence of naming and choosing after the single automatic engagement of the emotional center of the sleeping, internally considering machine. This sequence is good work to develop the intellect and emotional connection, but it is not sufficient to practice external consideration. The internal neural circuitry must be two ways connected, simultaneously, between the three centers of sensing, feeling and thinking prior to the event for me to be externally considerate.

I am still a work in progress and could be mistaken, but this is how I understand self remembering in relation to external and internal consideration.
 
Hi go2,

There's value in much of your post regarding the Work internally, but it seems that it may be mixing internal and external considering.

According to G nothing internally needs to occur prior to external consideration, it doesn't matter what's going on inside. One needs to completely separate the inner from the outer.

It is often automatic and appropriate

"Automatic" means not conscious, and is to act from inner considering.

The "appropriate" is to not react.
 
Hi Jerry,

Could you elaborate on how I am mixing internal and external considering?

Sometimes, appropriate is to act. The point is many appropriate actions or non-actions are not the result of external consideration, but the result of education.
 
Hi go2,

I'm just out the door and I'll be away from a computer for a couple of days. Didn't want you to feel that I was ignoring your post.

I'll try later.
 

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