The Usefulness of the Negative Half of the Emotional Center

[Menna]

Gracias

"The uncoupling of sensation from image and thought is what diffuses the highly charged emotions and allows them to transform fluidly into sensation-based gradations of feelings. This is not at all the same as suppressing or repressing them."

This makes this topic and its practical use very clear to me a big step in achieving this seems to be not to identify with the emotions or having your intellectual center intervene. Definitely helps to be secure, comfortable with yourself. It seems that identification is what holds us back from evolving (well at least one of many). Why do we identify so much? Does identification make us feel comfortable because if we can identify then we are familiar or think we know? Going to work on this as my next rung on the ladder

 

[Sol Logos]

Yeah I think there's got to be a reason behind identification, basically a payoff in some form or we wouldn't be doing it. I suppose uncovering what the personal payoff is will do wonders at least from the perspective of comparison. So if we compare our current personal state to living in such a way free of mechanically moving from one payoff to the next, then we can say that our payoffs just aren't worth it - that they actually make us live in denial and more miserable in the long term etc. That's anyway where I'm at, still working out all the payoffs that lead me to follow the same old patterns...

 

[anitasweetie]

Yeah I think there's got to be a reason behind identification, basically a payoff in some form or we wouldn't be doing it. I suppose uncovering what the personal payoff is will do wonders at least from the perspective of comparison. So if we compare our current personal state to living in such a way free of mechanically moving from one payoff to the next, then we can say that our payoffs just aren't worth it - that they actually make us live in denial and more miserable in the long term etc. That's anyway where I'm at, still working out all the payoffs that lead me to follow the same old patterns...

Hi, alkhemst
Hopefully this might help you see, IMO that we wallow in our negative emotions; The movie What The Bleep Do We Know, has a very good example of this, the explanation that they give in the movie, seems to be a very good one. At a wedding party, a woman gets wine spilled on her dress, she wails, and acts out... It is not just that particular scene though.

Hopefully, this isn't too far off topic of this really great thread. Thanks

Mod edit: fixed quote boxes

 

[Menna]

Yes people love their suffering as the C's say that is a good way to tell if someone is ready for graduation or not. If they like to wail over problems or situations over and over again and it is part of their character and not working/willing to change on one level they want to stay here...

I think what Alkemist was saying is that we identify with emotions, people, places and things because there is a "payoff" and by "payoff" I believe he means we get something whether it be more comfortable with reality (subjectively) or just comfortable with the situation I don’t know the real reason why us human identify but I agree there is a payoff of some kind... Just like anything else one does a certain thing because they then receive a certain thing. Identifying seems to be very STS like trying to own something to have it to pin it down. I need more personal development/research to really dig into this.

On a side note I recognize the dynamics that keep us in illusion and that are STS and I don’t like any of them but can't always stay conscious enough to do away with them 100% of the time they creep back in. I guess this is what G means when he says as soon as a man tries to wake up the forces in this world act on him to bring him back to sleep

 

[emmanuel]

Re: The Usefulness of the Negative Emotional Center

the other one is that anger state that it's as if it is a living breath inside one's body and animates it, it's mostly felt as heat in the torso area (perhaps emotional center?) and it comes from the "i won't take anymore of this!" state of mind. I think that's the one that thymos describes, that Plato and Fukuyama talk about, even Restin and Barbara talk about. This feeling of anger is the one that respects the self and won't allow it to be lied to, manipulated, abused.

Yes, you're right in making those two distinctions. The ego-anger I rarely feel, but this purifying, transformative anger has got me out of many a depression. When I stop feeling hurt and start feeling outraged ("how DARE you treat me like that!") - that's when I know I'm going to be okay. Rage helps the broken live on.

I think it could be a good defence against the Lizzies, though I'm not sure if this 'righteous rage' feeds them too. I felt a very strong presence in my room a few nights ago, and I felt something moving on top of me, a depression on the bedcover moving up towards my head. At first I was terrified, fear in the pit of my belly, but I brought it up and turned it into anger (I actually ended up yelling at them in my head, lol), released it, and it turned to watchful indifference. Certainly made me feel better anyway!

It does seem that hot-headed, ego-driven anger has become accepted and common-place, even encouraged to some extent - road rage, football, the Jerry Sringer show - But when we are harmed and violated, we are taught to "forgive", to "turn the other cheek", to go to a support group where we can all meet to lick each others wounds and ever revel in our victim-hood. I'm sure there are great support groups out there, but a few people I have met seemed more content to wear their victim-hood as a badge than to actually heal and get on with life. Rage is key; when you can feel angry about harm that was done to you that's when you claim back your rights, your self-worth, and your personal power and responsibility.

I have a similar experience years ago when i meditated. I was lying on the bed breathing deep and slow. I feel the strong presence in the "empty" room. And then I actually SEE the bedcover moving to my chest. It was the feeling like somebody sit on my chest. I can feel all the weight on me. Not pleasant. But my mind was calm and I just observe ( if was like is happening to someone else ). Then I DECIDED that that i don't like and I firmly and clearly said NO! in my head. The next thing what is happened was that the weight has gone, curtain on the room windows fluttered and in the same moment in the flat of my neighbors something crushed!
If I can remember well it was not exactly the anger what I was feeling, very similar yes but maybe more like determination or clear demand. It was never happened since.

 

[anitasweetie]

Thanks, Menna

Sorry Alkhemst, for some reason I am struggling with the "definition" of payoff, as it would pertain to the work on ourselves. Is it there because of conditioning, and without realizing that we are really trying to control everything, to have something for self? I have seen it in myself lately, didn't know what to call it.

 

[Sol Logos]

...
Sorry Alkhemst, for some reason I am struggling with the "definition" of payoff, as it would pertain to the work on ourselves. Is it there because of conditioning, and without realizing that we are really trying to control everything, to have something for self? I have seen it in myself lately, didn't know what to call it.

I had some self reflection time on this one and wrote an bit of an analogy / story to explain what I meant by payoff and a few other things:

Say for example I feel that there's no possible way that anyone's ever going to love me for who I am, just as I am. That's not something I'd want on the top of my mind all the time, so I'd probably have that one buried fairly deep. A good analogy is, I'd have it covered up by layers of dirt, so I can't see it and it's easy to deny, and that also means I can get by largely unaware of it and that's probably the point.

Let's say, today I feel a bit down and I don't even know why, something in me makes me want to be reassured, of what I don't even think too much about, but I'm driven by it and yet I don't even figure that I am. So I walk into a bar full of people and I don't know these people but they are potential targets to fill my need to be reassured. But I can't acknowledge that need, because that would take away my self belief in my own likability, a belief that's in stark contrast to how I really feel about myself. Yet it's there because it gives me a false sense of confidence that others have in the past responded to, so it's serving a purpose.

So, I walk in with this false confidence, and because I believe in it, I'm sure these guys are going to like me, because one of my layers of dirt is that I'm smart, I'm intellectual, you know, I've read a bunch of things and heard a bunch of things and that's got to be impressive. So that's my identification, and my payoff is the feeling of confidence, and that makes me feel good, but more importantly it helps me keep my grief covered up nice and tight, it helps me ignore how I really feel, it helps me to not be myself. And that's makes sense, as why would I want to be myself if I feel deep down that myself is not worth loving?

The thing is, these guys in the bar aren't impressed. They've seen my type come by before and they know my game. Some of them let me know what they see, and that's no good on my end, I feel as if I'm being attacked, my identification's not working here, I'm beginning to see myself in the mirror, and I don't like how I look. I've either got to be completely honest with myself or start to employ another tactic in my quiver and that's what I do, because that's the easy option and it's worked before, so in the back of my mind I'm thinking it's going to have to work again. This option is another identification, I identify with the victim, the guy who is innocent but is always being attacked, the guy that's hardly done by in life, who is misunderstood but is a really well meaning guy, if you got to know him. So that's my stance and I'm hardly aware that I have it, because I'm just focussed on getting my pay off, that I feel I'm OK and I don't have to see what's under the dirt - one layer has been striped and I'd be damned if I'm going to have to strip another one again! Because again, it's worked in the past, it's given me attention, sympathy and reassurance, and that's exactly what I'm here to get.

So this time a few in the bar respond, they can see something's got through, I'm crying, I'm cowering, I'm saying I'm sorry and a few are patting me on the back. But after a while, this routine's being stretched out a bit too long and a few of them smell a rat. I'm not being loud and carrying on too much, so they kind of tolerate me and just let me be in the corner of the room with a few other sympathizers. So I'm not really breaking any of the bar rules anymore, like - I'm not forcing my false self assuredness on to anyone and I've learnt a few things along the way, so there's no reason not to just let me be. Occasionally too, I'm helping to clean up but the neediness sometimes overwhelms the assistance I'm trying to give, so often it's just a "thanks, but no thanks" for which I then I take my usual seat in the corner.

But over time the dirt is being lifted and the real stuff underneath is finally coming to the surface, which of course was the whole point to begin with!

 

[arpaxad]

If my mind serves me correctly, nowhere in the classic Fourth Way books it is said that the negative part of the Emotional Center has any value. When your anger feels righteous, then especially, you are probably sound asleep. If you were a samurai, the moment you gave in to anger, you would lose.

That said, however, I am well aware of the healing properties of anger. But whenever it is useful, it may be explained as being rather an expression of the Instinctive Center, because it is typically related to issues of self-defense: You are protecting your machine, and that is a function of the Instinctive Center.

Anger in the Emotional Center can be very destructive, either to oneself or to others. When it wears off, it can cause extreme anxiety in sensitive individuals (imho). It appears also that in the Cassiopaean context, with all due respect, anger is most often associated with Imagination, one of the primary obstacles to Work in the Fourth Way. Now, forgive me, Laura, but channeling imagination into anger would be a sign of extreme sleep by all Fourth Way standards

 

[obyvatel]

[quote author=arpaxad]
If my mind serves me correctly, nowhere in the classic Fourth Way books it is said that the negative part of the Emotional Center has any value.
[/quote]

If you are referring to 4th Way books that came from the Ouspenski line, it may be true. From available accounts (like for example Patterson's "Struggle of Magicians") Ouspenski's understanding of emotions and their uses was likely limited. In Gurdjieff's own accounts as well as accounts of people describing how G behaved with others on occasions (like Crowley for example) there are practical (real life as opposed to theorizing) examples of how anger is expressed under specific conditions to have specific results.

So,
[quote author=arpaxad]
anger would be a sign of extreme sleep by all Fourth Way standards
[/quote]
is not a correct statement.

 

[arpaxad]

If you are referring to 4th Way books that came from the Ouspenski line, it may be true. From available accounts (like for example Patterson's "Struggle of Magicians") Ouspenski's understanding of emotions and their uses was likely limited. In Gurdjieff's own accounts as well as accounts of people describing how G behaved with others on occasions (like Crowley for example) there are practical (real life as opposed to theorizing) examples of how anger is expressed under specific conditions to have specific results.

It's a frequent example that comes up. One should remember, though, that what can apply to Gurdjieff, who was presumable awakened at the time, does not necessarily apply to a man #4. Until you have a real Will, anger is not advisable - except for the instances of real self-defense, i. e. immediate threat, imho.

 

[arpaxad]

Let G himself (as recorded by P. D. O., and, according to LKJ, in this case, "we can generally rely" on his words) speak:

"'In the sphere of the emotions it is very useful to try to struggle with the habit of giving immediate expression to all one's unpleasant emotions. Many people find it very difficult to refrain from expressing their feelings about bad weather. It is still more difficult for people not to express unpleasant emotions when they feel that something or someone is violating what they may conceive to be order or justice.

'Besides being a very good method for self-observation, the struggle against expressing unpleasant emotions has at the same time another significance. It is one of the few directions in which a man can change himself or his habits without creating other undesirable habits. Therefore self-observation and self-study must, from the first, be accompanied by the struggle against the expression of unpleasant emotions.'"

-- P.D.Ouspensky, In Search of the Miraculous, ch. 6

And just a few paragraphs below:

"There were several points in G.'s psychological theories that particularly aroused my interest. The first thing was the possibility of self-change, that is, the fact that in beginning to observe himself in the right way a man immediately begins to change himself, and that he can never End himself to be right.

The second thing was the demand 'not to express unpleasant emotions.' I at once felt something big behind this. And the future showed that I was right, for the study of emotions and the work on emotions became the basis of the subsequent development of the whole system. But this was much later."
- Ibid.

Now, this does not call for blind obedience, but, remember, you have to be a "sly man."What can you do about anything? Surely, some people are brain-washed, and it may be helpful (or not, I don't know) to show them the "other" side of things. But if that just fuels more imagination and negativity aroused by it, then the whole octave of doing-good just took a turn for the worse, and maybe it was not worth starting at all. IMHO, LKJ and the Cassiopaeans have done some incredible work, and I highly respect the whole thing. Perhaps, the anger can be felt and "transformed" (surely not into more "imagination"), but that is what needs to be talked about, because that is, in my opinion, again, the Holy Grail of the Work.

 

[mkrnhr]

Perhaps, the anger can be felt and "transformed"

The subtle difference is between reacting automatically to the experience of anger and, acting consciously upon it, by recognizing it, recognizing the context, and deciding on if, when, and how to "canalize" it one way or another.

 

[David]

Anger only ever feel like anger to me, what could be termed ‘real’ anger could be said to be righteous anger. Where all the centres are doing what they are supposed to be doing, though I remember getting angry and I’m pretty confident that the emotional centre had taken over, usurped the thinking function, perhaps a flight or fight mode... and its a stupid anger that merely serves in protecting the false personality or simply a cover for a lack of awareness of what is, an anger that can be excused or covered up with a lie and called righteous, and maybe more akin to a feeding dynamic, leaving one exhausted.

I think G was a man who could get ‘real’ angry with a particular individual... Fritz Peters in his book, ‘my journey with a mystic,’ describes a scene when he entered G’s chambers, when G was having what seemed to be a very heated meeting with Orange, G seemed super angry, and in what could be called, ‘the heat of the moment’ when G turned his attention to Peters, well there was no taste of anger between G and Orange being carried over to Peters... it just commenced again as soon as G turned his attention back to Orange.

Seems terrible odd to me, then again I’m used to everyday occurrences where the norm is where the emotional centre usurps the thinking function and spill out on everybody else in one form or another, to one degree or another.

Perhaps the difference is between a somewhat mindful disposition and a somewhat mindless disposition, and one of them is useful for channelling the energy in more creative imaginative ways... towards being as opposed to non being.

And being creative imaginative with this energy, could be thought of as using it in different way to how one normally acts on negative emotion, rather than expressing anger, ones simply uses it to self observe in the beginning... the beginning of a creative work that is real and ones own.

This is the way I understanding it at the moment, and I’m no expert in the work... FWIW

 

[Menna]

I believe it comes down to the analogy/saying of "What are you going to sharpen your sword against" Reducing duality reducing experiencial learning, reduces wisdom. The mere reason we are here is to gain wisdom/knowledge thats why the human body is imperfect (well perfect for the reason as to why we chose to be in 3d) thats why experiences/lessons and gaining wisdom is the goal. Why do we need wisdom for what bigger purpose? I don't know but it is said many times in many different sources that the next level is where what you think you manifest and or abilities are increased. If this is true if our human bodies were "perfect" or increased abilities there would be less of an opportunity to gain wisdom because the lag time/learning time for lack of a better word is reduced or eliminated by increased abilities. The human machine and all its organs, centers all of it enables one to gain wisdom through duality experience learning time. All the knowledge put out by networking and the great people here allow us to know ourselves and the way things are giving us more free will to navigate the experiences to reduce the painful emotions and what have you. The C's have said it before pain is part of it and they are sorry that it is this way. However it can be reduced through knowledge and application. The usefulness of any center is that it allows us to know our machine and gain wisdom/learn. Don't mess up your body, organs, centers you will move farther away from the purpose but then again maybe that is your purpose your experience this time.

If anyone has a hypothesis for the bolded let me know

 

[Buddy]

I believe it comes down to the analogy/saying of "What are you going to sharpen your sword against" Reducing duality reducing experiencial learning, reduces wisdom. The mere reason we are here is to gain wisdom/knowledge thats why the human body is imperfect (well perfect for the reason as to why we chose to be in 3d) thats why experiences/lessons and gaining wisdom is the goal. Why do we need wisdom for what bigger purpose? I don't know but it is said many times in many different sources that the next level is where what you think you manafest and or abilities are increased. If this is true if our human bodies were "perfect" or increased abilities there would be less of an opportunity to gain wisdom because the lag time/learning time for lack of a better word is reduced or eliminated by increased abilities. The human machine and all its organs, centers all of it enables one to gain wisdom through duality experience learning time. All the knowledge put out by networking and the great people here allow us to know ourselves and the way things are giving us more free will to navigate the experiences to reduce the painful emotions and what have you. The C's have said it before pain is part of it and they are sorry that it is this way. However i can be reduced through knowledge and application.

If anyone has a hypothesis for the bolded let me know

How about that wisdom and love are so closely intertwined that, depending on situation, they may be indistinguishable. So, we might gain love via wisdom or gain wisdom via love and/or both may grow together. Either way seems empirically observable and verifiable. For the question of purpose, might the question now be tied to the reference to love in one of the latest C's sessions?

So, anyway, that's what I'm thinking.