The Usefulness of the Negative Half of the Emotional Center

[arpaxad]

Lets say this person has come from a family of yellers and is more forceful in nature then you are and doesn't respond to words without a tone behind them. Sometimes a raise in voice or slight power is suitable for another person on a lower level (might make you feel uncomfortable) so you can protect yourself and continue on your path without disruption from them. Sometimes the expression of anger is a regular act for others-viewed as normal. THen you can get into the different levels of expression of anger such as body language, facial expression, words, tone, volume, physical anger projected to another. The first four might be useful in a situation to navigate through ones life. Going down to someones level for a split second so you can remain at yours.

Agreed.

There is still a difference, as was already stated by Alada, between controlling anger or being immersed in it. Sort of the same as using fire intentionally (as in so-called "controlled burns") vs. feeding a wildfire already raging.

 

[Menna]

I mention it along with the question as a way of linking it to an actual event that happened (the session) rather than leaving it floating in an air of abstraction

I understand that - wanted to learn your reference to engage further.

I'm seeing the sharing of wisdom as a specific case of expressing abundant love. Maybe someone else might share this view or maybe they won't, I don't know.

I get love is light and knowledge and understanding and all this is the direction to go in however for what what purpose? Maybe there is none or nothing that I can comprehend at this level or this is the purpose. I think on a deeper level im looking for a sort of confirmation here/re assurance because if I know what the direction and goal/purpose is then I can easier correct and get on the path toward it. But this in and of it self is a 3D type of mode/mentality and I can't receive advanced answers when coming from a non advanced state. Maybe feeling "naked" in the world without my 3D want for confirmation is a state I need to be in to learn and or change the esoteric in me to be more aligned with the esoteric out there a better signal and or receiver because the answer to my question can't come from 3D words or ideology.

 

[arpaxad]

In my scenario, the insight (profound realization) preceeded the anger and anger was constructively used to express the person's insight along with its implications. Insight normally comes from inductive mental work. Insight is 'induced'. Anger is evaluative. It comes from recognizing significance to human life and values (even where values can be corrupt) and deducing consequences. So, IMO, anger and profound understanding can be mixed, but that isn't to say they are the same or interchangable or occur simultaneously.

[...]

See what I mean? Although you've reversed your linguistic expression, that's the process as I described it: first the insight, then the evaluative expression of implication, consequence, or whatnot.

Yes, I do. Although no feeling of anger was present when I realized this. There was some small irritation, which could have been the "fire" needed to fuse 2 & 2 together.

Which leads us back to the fundamental Fourth Way ideas--- in this case, that of Friction, necessary to achieve Understanding.

Another thing: Feeling anger on reading the news and getting imaginary (if not altogether wrong) ideas of what goes on somewhere in the world, with one typically being unable to do anything constructive to do about it in the moment. In this case, anger by itself is futile, and may at best lead to understanding of one's significance and desire to greatly increase one's level of Being.

If a man reasons and thinks soundly, no matter which path he follows in solving these problems, he must inevitably arrive back at himself, and begin with the solution of the problem of what he is himself and what his place is in the world around him.

-- G. I. Gurdjief (source of the quote)

 

[arpaxad]

^^insignificance^

 

[Buddy]

Here's a thought: wisdom is a very good purpose in itself because of what it represents: some knowledge of objective reality gained and felt inside as an accurate representation of reality, or some part of it, on a smaller scale. If there is any further purpose, naturally it would be tied to survival of someone or something. Can you imagine any use the Sun Absolute would have for you if your knowledge is more or less a mirror image of Reality, itself? The information stored and encoded in your being would be needed to link up all such knowledge held in all of us in order for Sun Absolute to stitch together and map out its own consciousness of itself at the End.

Have you ever had the pleasure of meeting someone wise and discover they had a deep structural understanding of reality and some of its processes that reflected your own or that were compatible with yours? You both would be a fractal part of the multifractal part of the overall structure at the end of time that G refers to as The Most Holy Sun Absolute and so that part of you must be preserved for creation or re-creation.

But all the above is my esoteric-level understanding because in the realm of 3D, I think wisdom/love is mostly for enjoying life, appreciating beauty and sharing as much of what you have as you are capable in whatever ways you can.

 

[Menna]

But all the above is my esoteric-level understanding because in the realm of 3D, I think wisdom/love is mostly for enjoying life, appreciating beauty and sharing as much of what you have as you are capable in whatever ways you can

Yes, however in going through the process of gaining wisdom/love we "go through" a mixture of stuff, turmoil, pain, joy and what have you and if handled the right way the negative and positive produces balanced/understanding but the "going through" process that causes pain/positive doesn't seem "natural" to me and makes me think there is a purpose to it more then just the plain fact of living or sharing the wisdom that you have just acquired because most people have to "go through" their own stuff to produce their own truism/wisdom in themselves so to me gaining wisdom/love is not the end and application here on 3D is not the only reason/purpose for it alot of time the lessons and what are learned from them are personal to you do we take this to next level? Not just using it here to navigate till we pass on? you know what Im getting at?

 

[Buddy]

Yes, however in going through the process of gaining wisdom/love we "go through" a mixture of stuff, turmoil, pain, joy and what have you and if handled the right way the negative and positive produces balanced/understanding but the "going through" process that causes pain/positive doesn't seem "natural" to me and makes me think there is a purpose to it more then just the plain fact of living or sharing the wisdom that you have just acquired because most people have to "go through" their own stuff to produce their own truism/wisdom in themselves so to me gaining wisdom/love is not the end and application here on 3D is not the only reason/purpose for it alot of time the lessons and what are learned from them are personal to you do we take this to next level? Not just using it here to navigate till we pass on? you know what Im getting at?

Assuming the line of force in your reply represents the line of development you are referring to, and that the suffering you're referring to is producing negative emotion, then I'd say the purpose you're looking for is "soul creation/development."

Have you read Meetings With Remarkable Men, especially paying attention to everything Father Giovanni talked about? It's all about the difference between understanding and knowledge and their relation to one's being and how that relates to soul.

I was upset to find out that G never wound up his written works by explicitly revealing what exactly Giovanni said about developing soul, but I think Laura picks it up to some extent with her work:

Darkness Over Tibet

And there's this excellent post on this particularly excellent idea here:

To grow a soul, one must study events of the past

And here's a post about achieving transmutation of whatever we can of negative emotions and then, once we've reached a point when our suffering via negative emotions becomes less noticeable, it might be time to go find a bigger petty tyrant...

Self-Observation, Inner Talking & Work Instrument

 

[arpaxad]

We all presumably have some ideas of how things could be happening on the next level, after death, etc., etc. But what it comes down to is that these are all hypotheses. You have to accept the fact that you are not likely to verify either of them for sure. You have to take one hypothesis at a time and work with it, trying to consider all the facts. I have chosen the ones elucidated by Hinduism, as the working hypotheses for my life. These are hypotheses, but they also have a side effect of making me feel relatively good and hopeful about Life in general. You've got to be practical, and not let the frustrations of your Intellectual Center interfere with the normal function of your other centers But in the end, I think, it's a good thing to get used to "dwelling in possibility," as the poet Emily Dickinson put it in words:

I dwell in Possibility –
A fairer House than Prose –
More numerous of Windows –
Superior – for Doors

 

[arpaxad]

But all the above is my esoteric-level understanding because in the realm of 3D, I think wisdom/love is mostly for enjoying life, appreciating beauty and sharing as much of what you have as you are capable in whatever ways you can

Yes, however in going through the process of gaining wisdom/love we "go through" a mixture of stuff, turmoil, pain, joy and what have you and if handled the right way the negative and positive produces balanced/understanding but the "going through" process that causes pain/positive doesn't seem "natural" to me and makes me think there is a purpose to it more then just the plain fact of living or sharing the wisdom that you have just acquired because most people have to "go through" their own stuff to produce their own truism/wisdom in themselves so to me gaining wisdom/love is not the end and application here on 3D is not the only reason/purpose for it alot of time the lessons and what are learned from them are personal to you do we take this to next level? Not just using it here to navigate till we pass on? you know what Im getting at?

I think Wisdom in the Fourth Way lingo is equivalent to Being.

As for the ultimate or next-level goal, it's a common theme in the Fourth Way tradition that developing all these things is essentially a way to immortality -- that of consciousness. A person who has developed his Higher Centers will be able to continue the conscious existence upon leaving the physical body. It's just a small step along the ascending octave of the Ray of Creation. That, however, is mostly theory, and the verification of it will probably take slightly more than the life of one's physical body.

 

[obyvatel]

[quote author=arpaxad]
I think Wisdom in the Fourth Way lingo is equivalent to Being.
[/quote]

Wisdom is understanding. There is perhaps a certain level to which understanding can grow within a given state and level of being. In other words, using analogy, being is like a expandable container which can hold understanding. Or so is my current "understanding".

 

[Buddy]

A person who has developed his Higher Centers will be able to continue the conscious existence upon leaving the physical body.

Did you mean to say "developed his lower centers?" I was thinking it is the lower centers that were the ones with 'wrong workings' and the 'higher' centers were already good to go, so to speak. Please let me know if I'm in error here.

 

[arpaxad]

Did you mean to say "developed his lower centers?" I was thinking it is the lower centers that were the ones with 'wrong workings' and the 'higher' centers were already good to go, so to speak. Please let me know if I'm in error here.

Buddy, good catch. ;) True, the Higher Centers, according to the Fourth Way theory, don't need development. It's the lower centers that need balancing to be able to get in contact with the Higher Center. Lower centers, however, do not survive the death of the machine (obviously, because they ARE the machine). So what needs to be developed is the Higher Consciousness, the ability to interact with the Higher Centers, and a higher body. This is all semantics, however, imo.

 

[Menna]

The cassiopieans are us In the future our hire selves chose to be here we are neither created or distroid we cycle back and forth to learn our lessons through experience we develope love light knowledge...Why in the work is there an emphases on developing something that lives on after our physical body? If currently there our higher selves and energy/beings that are us that do last for ever or at least are alive past 3D regardless of our finer energy astral body development. I don't see a need for it per my understanding

 

[Buddy]

The cassiopieans are us In the future our hire selves chose to be here we are neither created or distroid we cycle back and forth to learn our lessons through experience we develope love light knowledge...Why in the work is there an emphases on developing something that lives on after our physical body? If currently there our higher selves and energy/beings that are us that do last for ever or at least are alive past 3D regardless of our finer energy astral body development. I don't see a need for it per my understanding

Someone more knowledgeable than I about the mapping between Gurdjieff's work and the C's comments would probably give a better answer, but I think that from G's point of view nothing about a given individual pre-existed necessarily, so to achieve any kind of immortality for a self-contained entity that knows itself as an individual, it would be necessary to develop something in oneself that could survive bodily death and become subject to recurrence in a form that can be self-remembered.

I think it's important though to consider whether the end result G had in mind was something set in concrete by Universal law. I don't think he believed it was set or in anyway guaranteed. There are statements and clues in G's writings suggesting that The Fourth Way was simply an experiment, nothing more. When he secluded himself in a monastery for two years, he was pouring over the notes he had made and all the other info and experiences he had to that point in order to formulate and clarify his theory or theories. When he was ready, his first goal was to gather a few different "types" of people on whom to try his approach. Some have even suggested that his car accident and whatnot was his own brazen attempt to find out if he had reached that goal himself.

So, all I can say that I believe for sure is that there is no free ride or free lunch here. Something of a person must be able to survive bodily death if there is any use at all for any work or for them being anyhow re-membered and so I figure the more of myself I'd like to do this surviving, the more work on myself I'd have to do.

 

[arpaxad]

I think it's important though to consider whether the end result G had in mind was something set in concrete by Universal law. I don't think he believed it was set or in anyway guaranteed. There are statements and clues in G's writings suggesting that The Fourth Way was simply an experiment, nothing more. When he secluded himself in a monastery for two years, he was pouring over the notes he had made and all the other info and experiences he had to that point in order to formulate and clarify his theory or theories. When he was ready, his first goal was to gather a few different "types" of people on whom to try his approach. Some have even suggested that his car accident and whatnot was his own brazen attempt to find out if he had reached that goal himself.

I tend to disagree. The Work, in Gurjieff's cosmology, is an expression of the ascending part of the Ray of Creation. Some people are destined to escape, for the preservation of the fabric of the Universe, although that number is small and the process is stochastic -- that is, you can't predict who individually will escape, but only that a certain small number of people will escape. The example provided is that of boiling water and some molecules escaping as steam.

All this is not meant to nullify the principle of verification: i.e., you have to know everything for yourself, based on your own experiments and observations (aka the scientific method). If Gurdjieff knew everything or not, should not be our concern, for even his own words were, in essence, that you shouldn't believe anybody blindly, no matter who says it.